The US is not our friend (and hasn’t been)
Poll: The US is not our friend (and hasn’t been)
Total Members Polled: 107
Discussion
The US is not our friend. They are nobody’s friend and their foreign policy is and has always been aimed at what is good (in their view) for the US and nobody else. If that coincides with our interests then it is coincidental, not planned.
There is no special relationship. They fought a war to gain independence from the UK and only reluctantly got involved in WW1 and WW2 (and were not going to get involved in the latter until the Japanese attacked).
Post WW2 it has mainly been about combatting communism and enabling US business interests overseas (they haven’t had a problem with supporting dictators and oppressive regimes friendly to US interests).
Personally I find that a lot of the worst cultural trends have come from the US: fast food, inane entertainment, obesity, country music.
Too often we have been the US’s little lap dog, running after and supporting them (Iraq and Afghanistan).
Trump has been a wake up call but we should have realised long ago that our true allies are in our own continent, Europe. We should have been building closer ties with Europe, rather than isolating ourselves with Brexit (where is the trade agreement with the US or any special treatment since Brexit?)
Although Trump’s reign will pass he has shown how unreliable and capricious the US can be. We should be doing what we can now to limit the influence of the US on the UK. That should start with our one defence (why when we were one of the first nuclear countries is our nuclear deterrent dependent on the US?)
The UK, together with Europe should also be ensuring that we maintain/build our relations with other countries, particularly China, to counterbalance too much reliance on the US.
There is no special relationship. They fought a war to gain independence from the UK and only reluctantly got involved in WW1 and WW2 (and were not going to get involved in the latter until the Japanese attacked).
Post WW2 it has mainly been about combatting communism and enabling US business interests overseas (they haven’t had a problem with supporting dictators and oppressive regimes friendly to US interests).
Personally I find that a lot of the worst cultural trends have come from the US: fast food, inane entertainment, obesity, country music.
Too often we have been the US’s little lap dog, running after and supporting them (Iraq and Afghanistan).
Trump has been a wake up call but we should have realised long ago that our true allies are in our own continent, Europe. We should have been building closer ties with Europe, rather than isolating ourselves with Brexit (where is the trade agreement with the US or any special treatment since Brexit?)
Although Trump’s reign will pass he has shown how unreliable and capricious the US can be. We should be doing what we can now to limit the influence of the US on the UK. That should start with our one defence (why when we were one of the first nuclear countries is our nuclear deterrent dependent on the US?)
The UK, together with Europe should also be ensuring that we maintain/build our relations with other countries, particularly China, to counterbalance too much reliance on the US.
Surely this can't be news to anyone with a brain cell?
US foreign policy is absolutely ruthless. It views the rest of the world as resources that it plans controlling or outright taking. Coups or wars, they don't care. To that end it has known peace for all of 16 years in it's entire history. It has over 100 military bases all over the world. And we're just one of them.
Our politicians are talking in open code when they call it "The Special Relationship".
US foreign policy is absolutely ruthless. It views the rest of the world as resources that it plans controlling or outright taking. Coups or wars, they don't care. To that end it has known peace for all of 16 years in it's entire history. It has over 100 military bases all over the world. And we're just one of them.
Our politicians are talking in open code when they call it "The Special Relationship".
I picked "Don't know". The US isn't a friend (no nations are friends), but it has been a reliable partner for a very long time. The UK can remain as neutral as much as possible in a trade war, whilst being a reliable partner to the US and the EU. Last thing we need to do is get into a situation where we are picking sides or putting all our eggs in one basket.
I think the EU felt that we "dumped" them, but time and having an issue in common to deal with (USA/Ukraine/Russia), is helping the EU to realise that we are still a reliable partner to them for trade and defence.
I think the EU felt that we "dumped" them, but time and having an issue in common to deal with (USA/Ukraine/Russia), is helping the EU to realise that we are still a reliable partner to them for trade and defence.
It never was, our interests merely aligned.
They destroyed our aviation industry with sharp practice, even allowing for a lot of self inflicted issues.
I rember a few years back, Obama was here, think brown was still PM. Obama gave a speech, usual platitudes, special relationship Yadda Yadda.
Well, the very next day, he was in poland, I had msnbc or bloombrrg channel on, and he, verbatim, gave the exact same speech.
They destroyed our aviation industry with sharp practice, even allowing for a lot of self inflicted issues.
I rember a few years back, Obama was here, think brown was still PM. Obama gave a speech, usual platitudes, special relationship Yadda Yadda.
Well, the very next day, he was in poland, I had msnbc or bloombrrg channel on, and he, verbatim, gave the exact same speech.
grumbledoak said:
Surely this can't be news to anyone with a brain cell?
US foreign policy is absolutely ruthless. It views the rest of the world as resources that it plans controlling or outright taking. Coups or wars, they don't care. To that end it has known peace for all of 16 years in it's entire history. It has over 100 military bases all over the world. And we're just one of them.
Our politicians are talking in open code when they call it "The Special Relationship".
Most of this is true. US foreign policy is absolutely ruthless. It views the rest of the world as resources that it plans controlling or outright taking. Coups or wars, they don't care. To that end it has known peace for all of 16 years in it's entire history. It has over 100 military bases all over the world. And we're just one of them.
Our politicians are talking in open code when they call it "The Special Relationship".
But as we live in a country that has profited nicely from some fairly extreme foreign policies over the centuries isn’t it easy to see that every country does exactly the same thing?
It’s just the ones with more influence that are more notable.
Skeptisk said:
The US is not our friend. They are nobody’s friend and their foreign policy is and has always been aimed at what is good (in their view) for the US and nobody else. If that coincides with our interests then it is coincidental, not planned.
There is no special relationship. They fought a war to gain independence from the UK and only reluctantly got involved in WW1 and WW2 (and were not going to get involved in the latter until the Japanese attacked).
Post WW2 it has mainly been about combatting communism and enabling US business interests overseas (they haven’t had a problem with supporting dictators and oppressive regimes friendly to US interests).
Personally I find that a lot of the worst cultural trends have come from the US: fast food, inane entertainment, obesity, country music.
Too often we have been the US’s little lap dog, running after and supporting them (Iraq and Afghanistan).
Trump has been a wake up call but we should have realised long ago that our true allies are in our own continent, Europe. We should have been building closer ties with Europe, rather than isolating ourselves with Brexit (where is the trade agreement with the US or any special treatment since Brexit?)
Although Trump’s reign will pass he has shown how unreliable and capricious the US can be. We should be doing what we can now to limit the influence of the US on the UK. That should start with our one defence (why when we were one of the first nuclear countries is our nuclear deterrent dependent on the US?)
The UK, together with Europe should also be ensuring that we maintain/build our relations with other countries, particularly China, to counterbalance too much reliance on the US.
The US got us out of financial problems after the war. Fair enough, much of it was of their manufacture when Lend-Lease was cancelled on 20 Sept 1945. We were left broke. I knew a chap whose job it was to organise schoolchildren to work in the fields to harvest and plant at various times during the year. It didn't come about, but only because the Americans gave us loans (repaid in 2006) and aid. I had the impression that gratitude for their generosity was a big influence on political movement to work closer with the US.There is no special relationship. They fought a war to gain independence from the UK and only reluctantly got involved in WW1 and WW2 (and were not going to get involved in the latter until the Japanese attacked).
Post WW2 it has mainly been about combatting communism and enabling US business interests overseas (they haven’t had a problem with supporting dictators and oppressive regimes friendly to US interests).
Personally I find that a lot of the worst cultural trends have come from the US: fast food, inane entertainment, obesity, country music.
Too often we have been the US’s little lap dog, running after and supporting them (Iraq and Afghanistan).
Trump has been a wake up call but we should have realised long ago that our true allies are in our own continent, Europe. We should have been building closer ties with Europe, rather than isolating ourselves with Brexit (where is the trade agreement with the US or any special treatment since Brexit?)
Although Trump’s reign will pass he has shown how unreliable and capricious the US can be. We should be doing what we can now to limit the influence of the US on the UK. That should start with our one defence (why when we were one of the first nuclear countries is our nuclear deterrent dependent on the US?)
The UK, together with Europe should also be ensuring that we maintain/build our relations with other countries, particularly China, to counterbalance too much reliance on the US.
The one aspect of being the US' puppy that I think was massively detrimental to the UK was being, more or less, forced to follow the puritanical approach to drugs, which gave rise to the risible 1971 Drugs Act and later versions. Illegal drugs were largely contained in England at least up until then, with little organised pushing, at least compared to how it is now. If you were an addict, you would be prescribed an opiate. There were druggies injecting near to pharmacies but that was about it. The American 'war of drugs' has cost it more than any war it's gone into. It's hurt us as well. We went from reasonable enforcement to criminalising lots of youngsters.
No country is a friend to another. They might have similar interests, but one is always, but always, in the ascendent. We have little control on major influences on our culture, way of life, etc. We watch US films, we use their terminology, we eat their food, etc. We are forced to accept Australian adulterated meat, Chinese rubbish, and more and more.
The Trump ear might have a bit of a bonus in the tail. Our politicians might move away from sucking up to the US. It doesn't seem to be all that useful to us at the moment. One (among one) aspect of brexit that might be useful is the UK being a bit of a go-between.
I don't think we should try to be friends with any country. Friendly, yes, but let's not hug. As someone pointed out, our close relationship with Portugal has lasted yonks, if not longer, and mainly because we asked little of them, and they of us. Let's play nicely with China, India, Philippines, etc, but always be ready to pull away from being close. We should, must, build closer ties with the EU, particularly France and Germany, but retain the option of merely agreeing with them, without actually having to do anything about it.
There's the old quotes of the old order changes, and the more it changes, the more it stays the same. The US does seem to be reverting to type and becoming isolationist. This has always had a lot of support there, and it seems likely to continue beyond the golfer's stay. All that means is that another power group with be in the ascendent. Let's say nice things to them, but not invite them to stay.
swisstoni said:
Can countries really be ‘friends’?
Sure, they can have common interests and common enemies (until recently) that requires a friendly attitude.
But they are all ultimately out for their own interests.
Sure, they can have common interests and common enemies (until recently) that requires a friendly attitude.
But they are all ultimately out for their own interests.
Maybe not friends but allies. I think the problem is that for a mutually respectful relationship you need to have both sides being roughly as powerful as each other. Since WW2 the US has been clearly far superior economically and militarily to the UK so we have become their b
h. Canada and Mexico are also finding out what it is like to be their whipping boy. One of many reasons I am pro EU is that the EU countries together have enough economic clout to stand up better to the US (and Russia and China). swisstoni said:
Can countries really be ‘friends’?
Sure, they can have common interests and common enemies (until recently) that requires a friendly attitude.
But they are all ultimately out for their own interests.
Ultimately, they’re no different to any other country, us included:Sure, they can have common interests and common enemies (until recently) that requires a friendly attitude.
But they are all ultimately out for their own interests.
We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow.
House of Commons, 1 March 1848, Lord Palmerston.
Fighting against communism was mentioned above, so imperfect as the Americans are, would you rather the Soviet’s prevailed during the Cold War?
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