Prisons

[ChevronB19]

Sort of news, especially given how some people want to hark back to Victorian times in terms of punishment for criminals. We now imprison more than 3 times as many people as we did in the Victorian era.

There is no doubt that reform is needed - we can’t even meet our own standards for prisoner accommodation.

Have a read before any knee jerk responses (from either side).

https://www.theguardian.com/society/ng-interactive...

[CoolHands]

How much bigger is the population now?

In other news, when can we start offshoring prisoners and paying other countries to jail them. I think that is the solution.

[remedy]

There are more laws now, and crime is more prevalent as society is so soft, compared with Victorian times?

Let me guess, as a %, less people die of cold now than in medieval times?

[fflump]

CoolHands said:

How much bigger is the population now?
.

Our population is bigger but the article was saying that the proportion of our population in prison has increased significantly so your point is irrelevant

[ChevronB19]

CoolHands said:

How much bigger is the population now?

In other news, when can we start offshoring prisoners and paying other countries to jail them. I think that is the solution.

You haven’t read the article. The 3x is per 100,000. NB: I’ve chosen 3x as it is based on the start of the graph, but the 4x in the pic is accurate as it specifically refers to Victorian era.

Prison should not be purely about punishment, although there obviously should be an element of that, but ultimately a significant proportion of it should be about reducing recidivism. And we as a country aren’t good at that by any statistic.

Note comment in the article that you haven’t read… at the time the Victorian prisons were built… ‘The new prison will be most conducive to the reformation of prisoners and to the repression of crime …’.

And referring to your other news, that’s really working well for Trump.

[CoolHands]

ChevronB19 said:

You haven’t read the article. The 3x is per 100,000.

Correct - I read your statement “3 times as many people” so my question was in fact perfectly valid. Can’t read the article as it’s paywall

How’ve the recidivism treatments worked so far? Time to consign the fairy ideas to history and bang people up / send them abroad. About time this country started taking care of people doing the right thing, instead of those repeatedly doing the wrong thing.

[fflump]

Denial of one’s liberty is the punishment not housing in inhumane conditions. The latter does not rehabilitate it creates a brutalised cohort of reoffenders.

[Mr Penguin]

We have thousands of prisoners from countries like Poland, Lithuania, and Albania. There is no good reason to keep those prisoners here, taking up expensive places and forcing us to release dangerous prisoners and build new prison capacity (which is expensive in money, land use, and labour) rather than send them home and split the difference in cost. It would save us money, deport the criminal, and give the Polish and Albanian governments a bit of profit.

Or rent space from Estonia, which is cheaper than here. The Dutch are/were looking at it and I'm sure I heard the idea raised here a few years ago.

[Slow.Patrol]

We do need to build more prisons. Many of the old Victorian ones are in built up locations and the land could be sold off for housing. The new prisons could be built on cheaper land, away from housing.

I don't have a problem with prisoners sharing cells. It is not a hotel.

I also don't have a problem with better use being made of the tagging system with curfews. If a criminal is gainfully employed, better they continue to work, but have their freedom restricted via a tag. The technology is there to track their location.

[ChevronB19]

CoolHands said:

ChevronB19 said:

You haven’t read the article. The 3x is per 100,000.

Correct - I read your statement “3 times as many people” so my question was in fact perfectly valid. Can’t read the article as it’s paywall

How’ve the recidivism treatments worked so far? Time to consign the fairy ideas to history and bang people up / send them abroad. About time this country started taking care of people doing the right thing, instead of those repeatedly doing the wrong thing.

Erm, the 3x/4x thing again demonstrates you aren’t reading. It is independent of the size of population. Clue (and I really shouldn’t have to say this - it is the number of people *per 100k* - this really is primary school stuff?

The guardian isn’t paywalled by the way.

Would you prefer it if we went back to the days where people were deported to Australia for stealing a handkerchief? Petty crimes such as theft comprised 80% of those deportations.

[fflump]

CoolHands said:

ChevronB19 said:

You haven’t read the article. The 3x is per 100,000.

Correct - I read your statement “3 times as many people” so my question was in fact perfectly valid. Can’t read the article as it’s paywall.

If you click on the link you will find the article magically appears in full .

[Mojooo]

El Salvadorian mega prisons is the reform that is needed.

[OutInTheShed]

ChevronB19 said:

Erm, the 3x/4x thing again demonstrates you aren’t reading. It is independent of the size of population. Clue (and I really shouldn’t have to say this - it is the number of people *per 100k* - this really is primary school stuff?

14 per 100k is not more than 3x 5 per 100k, that's primary school stuff lardhead.

In Victorian times the number of people locked up included up to about 100k in various asylums and mental institutions.
How many of those people would be in prison today?

[Earthdweller]

Are we counting all the prisoners in Australian prisons as we were still sending thousands each year through most of the Victorian era ?

[bluemason]

CoolHands said:

How much bigger is the population now?

In other news, when can we start offshoring prisoners and paying other countries to jail them. I think that is the solution.

But it is a very costly solution. And it is not sustainable in the long term.

[ChevronB19]

OutInTheShed said:

ChevronB19 said:

Erm, the 3x/4x thing again demonstrates you aren’t reading. It is independent of the size of population. Clue (and I really shouldn’t have to say this - it is the number of people *per 100k* - this really is primary school stuff?

14 per 100k is not more than 3x 5 per 100k, that's primary school stuff lardhead.

In Victorian times the number of people locked up included up to about 100k in various asylums and mental institutions.
How many of those people would be in prison today?

Lardhead? Wow. What a charmer.

Look back - I chose to use 3x as it was the start of the graph. The article is about *victorian era* and if you include the end of the Victorian era on the graph then the 4x figure is correct.

Weirdly enough, I chose the 3x figure purely to avoid people being snarky and saying ‘well it’s only 3x if you look at the start of the graph’ and emphasised *victorian era*.

Also - it’s based on people in actual prison, not mental institutions/asylums, again as you would know of you *read the bl**dy article*.

[ChevronB19]

At some point, maybe in some fantasy future, it would be really lovely of people actually read the link in the OP before going totally awol.

[CoolHands]

ChevronB19 said:

CoolHands said:

ChevronB19 said:

You haven’t read the article. The 3x is per 100,000.

Correct - I read your statement “3 times as many people” so my question was in fact perfectly valid. Can’t read the article as it’s paywall

How’ve the recidivism treatments worked so far? Time to consign the fairy ideas to history and bang people up / send them abroad. About time this country started taking care of people doing the right thing, instead of those repeatedly doing the wrong thing.

Erm, the 3x/4x thing again demonstrates you aren’t reading. It is independent of the size of population. Clue (and I really shouldn’t have to say this - it is the number of people *per 100k* - this really is primary school stuff?

The guardian isn’t paywalled by the way.

Would you prefer it if we went back to the days where people were deported to Australia for stealing a handkerchief? Petty crimes such as theft comprised 80% of those deportations.

Since you’re being a massive nob to me I will point out your full sentence was, and I quote “We now imprison more than 3 times as many people as we did in the Victorian era.” To keep it v simple for you that could mean if the Victorian era jailed 10 people we now jail ‘3 x as many’ which would equal 30 people. So check again who can’t read.

I await your next denial.

[ChevronB19]

Proportions. As stated in the article you didn’t read (apparently due to a non existent paywall). I can’t believe you’re doubling down on this.

[Dingu]

fflump said:

Our population is bigger but the article was saying that the proportion of our population in prison has increased significantly so your point is irrelevant

I wager it was easier to get away with crime in the Victorian times.