Peter Sullivan - Is our justice system fit for purpose?

[LunarOne]

Peter Sullivan, jailed in 1986 for murder has been acquitted after 38 years in prison after new DNA evidence emerges.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce809e3gd1xo

If such miscarriages of justice can occur, is our system of justice fir for purpose? If people can go to prison for very long periods without their guilt being proved, then in my mind it is clearly not fit for purpose and it is not acceptable. Perhaps the idea of "beyond reasonable doubt" needs to be scrapped, and people should only go to prison where they can be shown to be guilty with no doubt whatsoever.

[P-Jay]

LunarOne said:

. Perhaps the idea of "beyond reasonable doubt" needs to be scrapped, and people should only go to prison where they can be shown to be guilty with no doubt whatsoever.

I think that would reduce convictions to about zero.

No system is perfect, but ours is about the best of a bad bunch and the reason why it's the model for most justice systems in the developed world.

Impossible to not feel for the guy, i guess he'd have been out 15 years ago if he'd admitted his guilt and shown remorse. It must have taken amazing courage and conviction to stay behind bars knowing he was innocent.

[bitchstewie]

Shocking.

It should give pause for thought to some of the Harry Brown "let him hang" types too.

[chemistry]

bhstewie said:

Shocking.

It should give pause for thought to some of the Harry Brown "let him hang" types too.

Indeed; this is why I can't ever support the death penalty.

[markbigears]

DNA testing has been around for ages, why only now has he been proved not guilty via DNA testing?

[Petrus1983]

This is why I don't agree with the death penalty but 38 years is outrageous. Poor guy.

[bitchstewie]

I also suspect he'll get an absolute kick in the chops in terms of compensation and help getting his life back on track if he's "looked after" by the state anything like Andrew Malkinson was.

[LunarOne]

The MOJ is no doubt going to charge him for food and lodging out of his compensation for all the time he's been inside.

[Leithen]

LunarOne said:

The MOJ is no doubt going to charge him for food and lodging out of his compensation for all the time he's been inside.

If I understand it correctly, with recent changes, he'll be lucky to get any compensation.

[Mammasaid]

markbigears said:

DNA testing has been around for ages, why only now has he been proved not guilty via DNA testing?

Did you actually read the article?

BBC said:

The court heard technology had only very recently been developed to the point where the semen sample, recovered from Miss Sindall's abdomen, could be tested for DNA.

[P-Jay]

Mammasaid said:

markbigears said:

DNA testing has been around for ages, why only now has he been proved not guilty via DNA testing?

Did you actually read the article?

BBC said:

The court heard technology had only very recently been developed to the point where the semen sample, recovered from Miss Sindall's abdomen, could be tested for DNA.

I think perhaps the more important factor is that he was convicted, in the eyes of the law he's a guilty man.

With every new advance in technology including DNA the Police have a chance to re-examine thousands of cold violent crimes. I'm not sure if there is a process to do this, let alone go back through thousands of closed ones. That's a huge amount of evidence to retest and evaluate.

I'd love to know how this case was re-examined, it must cost a lot of money and how many people are still fighting to bring him home after nearly 4 decades.

[Bright Halo]

Is it not a sign that at least a part of our justice system is working when new evidence is looked at and the system can admit it made a mistake?
Feel so bad for the guy, how do you not just go mad being kept locked up when you know you are innocent?

[simon_harris]

The new testing technique was developed in 2015 and he has been trying to get his case re-examined since then. He did initially confess to the crime which he later retracted.

[HarryW]

Petrus1983 said:

This is why I don't agree with the death penalty but 38 years is outrageous. Poor guy.

Contrarian view, now that DNA can prove without doubt then perhaps it’s one of the high bars for passing the death penalty?

[98elise]

LunarOne said:

The MOJ is no doubt going to charge him for food and lodging out of his compensation for all the time he's been inside.

This is something I really can't get my head round. When you imprison an innocent man how do you justify charging them for it?

[LunarOne]

98elise said:

This is something I really can't get my head round. When you imprison an innocent man how do you justify charging them for it?

They'll find a way, which in my view is both criminal and contemptible.

[bmwmike]

98elise said:

This is something I really can't get my head round. When you imprison an innocent man how do you justify charging them for it?

Same, it’s a spiteful thing to do. As my 12 year old pointed out - they don’t charge food and board to the guilty criminals when they leave his majesty’s sleepover.

[Petrus1983]

HarryW said:

Petrus1983 said:

This is why I don't agree with the death penalty but 38 years is outrageous. Poor guy.

Contrarian view, now that DNA can prove without doubt then perhaps it’s one of the high bars for passing the death penalty?

I'm just uncomfortable with it. I know many aren't.

[P-Jay]

HarryW said:

Petrus1983 said:

This is why I don't agree with the death penalty but 38 years is outrageous. Poor guy.

Contrarian view, now that DNA can prove without doubt then perhaps it’s one of the high bars for passing the death penalty?

The thing is, it can't. When it was first use to investigate crime, it seemed like a perfect tool, but it's not.

Even in this case, they tested semen within the body of someone who had been murdered and it wasn't Peter Sullivan, they can use it to rule him out, but even if they had another suspect they can't say "we can prove without doubt that this is the DNA of the suspect" They might be able to say there's about a 1 in 100, or 1 in 1,000, or even 1 in 250,000 (the best odds I've seen on TV). There are 70 million people in the UK, so that's 280 potential matches, or about 3000 matches across Europe.

As this case showed, they had to test the DNA of the Tech who extracted the sample, even though it was taken from semen, there's still a reasonable chance that close contact could cause someone else's DNA to come up in the test. Brush up against someone on the Bus and their DNA will be found on your body and clothes and vice versa.

[Earthdweller]

There's been huge advances not just in forensics in the last 38 years but also with Police powers and procedures

The Police and Criminal Evidence Act which came into force during 1986 was transformative and did away with the how shall we say "old school detective ways" that some practised .. not all, but some

The proper documentation of detention, legal representation access, relevant time and detention along with audio and later video recorded interviews has changed the whole way things are done .. and absolutely for he better

It's really hard to comment on specifics of a particular case other than to say that the miscarriages that happened back then almost certainly wouldn't happen now not just because the Police have "professionalised but also the introduction of the Crown Prosecution Service and the updated rules around evidence, admissibility and relevance

The Police do have cold case review teams and do periodically revisit old cases, mostly those unsolved but also if like in this case further evidence comes to light

The Police ARE duty bound to act impartially on evidence and that includes that which undermines the prosecution case

The rules of evidential disclosure are now very tight and there is no losing evidence these days

It's horrible when an innocent man is jailed and the presumption of doubt should always be not to convict "better that 12 guilty men go free, than one innocent man is imprisoned"