Army Abuse of Iraqi 'Appalling'
Discussion
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14825889
The soldiers involved are sick b
ds....
1 year prison is all the main soldier that was involved got as punishment.
1 year equates to one mans life brutally ended according to British justice. What a joke.
Not all soldiers are like this soldier, but there are too many UK and US soldiers who are abusing and torturing others in the name of democracy.
Juniors soldiers who didnt take part in the torture had no 'moral courage' to stop this or report to someone. They too are cowards not 'heroes'.
The soldiers involved are sick b
ds....1 year prison is all the main soldier that was involved got as punishment.
1 year equates to one mans life brutally ended according to British justice. What a joke.
Not all soldiers are like this soldier, but there are too many UK and US soldiers who are abusing and torturing others in the name of democracy.
Juniors soldiers who didnt take part in the torture had no 'moral courage' to stop this or report to someone. They too are cowards not 'heroes'.
SmoothCriminal said:
train people
The word 'train' is important here. The soldiers are not uncivilised monkeys recruited into an army solely to kill are they. They are human beings capable of rational thought.Would you be happy if the soldeiers deployed in the recent UK riots barbarically tortured the looters because 'they are trained killers'?
Do soldiers from the UK and US have a moral compass? I understand voilence is needed in battle situations, but 'dangerous stress positions', 'hitting prisoners so there screams sound like a choir' is hardly acceptable on already detained prisoners.
If you justify the above tactics used by these sick soldiers then you are a terrorist sympathiser and UK soldiers can also be regarded as terrorists.
edited to add that I am not 'shocked'. The stuff the british and US military has done in other situations has been far worse than what happened to Baha Musa. Hell some soldiers even torture and bully their own colleagues. But hey they are all heroes! The word 'heroes' should not be used so liberally for UK and US soldiers.
Edited by Marvin Hagler on Thursday 8th September 13:46
southendpier said:
I think it would be fair to say that many people join the army as angry, agressive young men who want to shoot other people. This is why the military recruits "dumb" youngsters. Why not I guess, you don't want a bunch of 60yr old hippies fighting your battles.
Ergo their moral compass may be squiffy compared to yours or mine - when they eventually come out of service their views may have changed.
Its an interesting point. There is an obvious underclass of soldiers in the army who are acting out thier 'call of duty', 'saw' and 'hostel' type fanstasies. A purely anectodal experience was gained from my friend who is in the british army. When he was doing his training we used to meet in Colchester (where there is a large barracks) and walk round town/go for coffee etc. When we bumped into his colleagues they talked and acted like immature kids. Indeed, he would tell me that alot of the soldiers were bullies to thier colleagues and that they had mentality of children and this showed in their behaviour and actions.Ergo their moral compass may be squiffy compared to yours or mine - when they eventually come out of service their views may have changed.
There are soldiers who are educated, mature and play their role in the army in a dignified and respectful manner. But when these said soldiers are 'afraid' or 'do not speak' when there is torture/mistreatment (as in the case of Baha Musa) then thier credibility is no better than the perpetrators.
MX7 said:
As a Muslim, I'd have thought that one of the biggest problems you've had in recent years is to avoid all being tarred with the same brush. Shame you can't grant others the same grace.
But this is the problem. Muslims are still tarred with the same brush. In fact on pistonheads in various forums, muslims are tarnished with the same brush!I dont want to tarnish the army with the same brush, but something tells me that the abuse that happens is more than just a few bad apples.
In the case of the US soldiers torturing detaines in Bagram air base, Abu ghraib etc. then there is lots of evidence and soldier testimony stating that what they were doing (torture) was on direct orders by senior military personnel.
These issues of torture are deeper than just brush tarnishing.
Shar2 said:
You seem to use the term US and British soldiers in a manner that makes me think you are not from either country. All our armed forces are very well trained, but there will always be some bad apples. I imagine after seeing your mates blown up, severely wounded etc, your feelings for the "other side" may impair your moral conduct somewhat. I'm not appoligising for them, but imagine the stress etc they have been under, not for just a few days, but month after month. Plus the "other side" aren't exactly brave freedom fighters, they are ruthless killers of anyone who doesn't agree with their way of thinking, and not just soldiers, but innocent civilians. So get off your high horse, as unless you have ever been in the situations our soldiers have been put, for purely political reasons, then you are talking out of your bottom.
No amount of stress turns a human being into an animal who tortures bound prisoners. If they are that stressed then they should not be looking after captured fighters or civillians and extreme torture and brutality is not taught in the military and you know it.Its you who is talking out of your bottom, as Baha Musa was innocent. Your brain however has classed him in the same group as a 'ruthless killer' which he was not. oh what a silly brain you have!
Victor McDade said:
What do you base this conclusion? The Brits had almost 50,000 troops in Iraq and 10,000 in Afghanistan yet the reports of abuse in these conflicts from our side have been relatively low.
There is lots of stuff on wiki leaks regarding this. Also there has been many reports of british soldiers involved in mis-treatment since the wars began.When you say 'relatively low'...relative to what?
AshVX220 said:
FFS, you need to have a serious think about the situation out there and have a word with yourself.
Who's going to look after PoW in a combat zone then, if not the soldiers who are there doing the fighting? The locals? Excellent, they'll all be released within half an hour, innocent or otherwise.
I'm afraid you have no idea what it's like for those lads out there and to judge from the comfort of your arm chair, like all the other bbc loving do-gooders in this country, I find sickening.
I never said locals will look after them, you said that. Read what I said.Who's going to look after PoW in a combat zone then, if not the soldiers who are there doing the fighting? The locals? Excellent, they'll all be released within half an hour, innocent or otherwise.
I'm afraid you have no idea what it's like for those lads out there and to judge from the comfort of your arm chair, like all the other bbc loving do-gooders in this country, I find sickening.
Anyhow, your right I am an 'armchair' guy, not a soldier. I have no idea what the soldiers go through, I feel sad that they lose their colleagues, i feel sad they are away from their families who they might no see again. HOWEVER, I feel sickened that they could commit torture on innocent people like Baha Musa (a point which you ignored in my previous post, to go on about something completely different). I have no sympathy for an army which allows this, and a justice sysem which passes a joke sentence on perpetrator.
In essence, you are saying its ok how we treated Baha Musa because our troops go through so much and that is why they assaulted him and other detainees.
Baha Musa was innocent what happened to him and his death was due to the negligence of the so called 'heroes'.
Shar2 said:
No, you're right, it shouldn't of happend, but when you have an Army that is already at full stretch, mistakes happen and certain soldiers shouldn't have been put in those positions within the gaol. Unless you've been in the sorts of situations then you really shouldn't comment. Particularly cherry picking things that have happend on one side of the conflict. I don't hear you shouting about the horrors the other side have carried out and are still carrying out, without any recourse to justice. You may think that a year in prison is a light sentence, then you have never been to a military prison. The perportrators will also, most likely, be given a dishonourable discharge from the Army too, which will muck up the rest of their lives.
Your right, the soldiers military career will be ruined. I am not anti-british troops. I dont agree with the occupation of Iraq or Afghanistan but that is a seperate issue. I am anti-British troops who torture.There has not (according to my knowlegde) been a reported case of an iraqi or afghan absusing and sexually humiliating a British soldier (like what was done in Bagram, Abu Ghrain, Guantanamo to detainees).
If I heard a British soldier had been tortured by an opposing force then I would be equally outraged and would feel sad. Indeed, during the two world wars british soldiers went through alot, and sacrificed alot. And as ASHVX220 stated that thier are reports of british soldiers being tortured in the Gulf war I. I am not trying to be one sided, but yes I am angry that british soldiers (the leaders of democracy) dealt with innocent people in a inhumane way, not because of stress (as ASHVX220 pointed out) but because he liked the chorus noise made from the screams.
AshVX220 said:
You need to read posts properly.
I never said the locals do look after them, when you alluded to the fact that maybe the soldiers shouldn't look after PoW's I was asking who you think should look after them, asking if you'd prefer locals did it.
I'm also not for once condoning what has happened, yes, it's a tragedy, yes he (apparently) is innocent.
You're sickened that they committed torture? If they did, have you read the full report? Do any of us on here actually know what happened? The only people that know what happened are the PoW and the soldiers charged with looking after him. Do you really believe that the other side don't torture our people?
The other side torture our guys, their guys, both adult and child regardless of gender, just for disagreeing with their beliefs. They would do harm to us at any opportunity using the most cowardly methods imaginable and when they torture, I gaurentee they do the really nasty stuff, compared to "stress positions", or sleep deprivation or the usual stuff you'd possibly asssociate with our soldiers.
And don't for one second think I'm tarring all muslims with the same brush, I have numerous muslim friends who share my view. My vitriol is targetted only at the more fanatical Wahhabi types. We have to do everything within the constraints of the Geneva convention, lest the bleeding-heart liberals complain, and in the main we do and that's a good thing. But sometimes we get it wrong and this happens. It's a minority occurance, but compared to what the other side do and plan to do, it's nothing. They don't play by any rules.
I'm afraid I'll be saving my tears for our lads.
I agree the other side are hardly angels. But is it possible to give me a link (assuming your talking about a report and not 'on the field' experiences) providing details on what the other side have done to British soldiers? I genuinely want to read that, as I may be missing something and being unneccesarily harsh to british soldiers.I never said the locals do look after them, when you alluded to the fact that maybe the soldiers shouldn't look after PoW's I was asking who you think should look after them, asking if you'd prefer locals did it.
I'm also not for once condoning what has happened, yes, it's a tragedy, yes he (apparently) is innocent.
You're sickened that they committed torture? If they did, have you read the full report? Do any of us on here actually know what happened? The only people that know what happened are the PoW and the soldiers charged with looking after him. Do you really believe that the other side don't torture our people?
The other side torture our guys, their guys, both adult and child regardless of gender, just for disagreeing with their beliefs. They would do harm to us at any opportunity using the most cowardly methods imaginable and when they torture, I gaurentee they do the really nasty stuff, compared to "stress positions", or sleep deprivation or the usual stuff you'd possibly asssociate with our soldiers.
And don't for one second think I'm tarring all muslims with the same brush, I have numerous muslim friends who share my view. My vitriol is targetted only at the more fanatical Wahhabi types. We have to do everything within the constraints of the Geneva convention, lest the bleeding-heart liberals complain, and in the main we do and that's a good thing. But sometimes we get it wrong and this happens. It's a minority occurance, but compared to what the other side do and plan to do, it's nothing. They don't play by any rules.
I'm afraid I'll be saving my tears for our lads.
It is also important to state that the ethos of what I am saying is innocent people being tortured is wrong (whether that be me sitting in an armchair, or seeing my colleagues get blow up by the enemy).
Shar2 said:
BTW Just be thankful you're in a free country to be able to express your views, it didn't get like this by magic, we've had to fight for it and we don't like thought of giving it away to extremists of any flavour.
I have respect for all the soldiers who fought and dies in both World wars, and this is not only a free country, but a GREAT country. I dont agree with the current wars and do not have respect for what the soldiers are doing. Ask any Iraqi or afghan who has fled to the UK, and they will tell you that things are worse than now than before the US and UK got involved.But forget extremists and the enemy, Britains own youth are pissing on War memorials and have no respect for thier country.
http://www.policeoracle.com/news/Woman-Who-Urinate...
Jimbeaux said:
Let's hear you go on a bit about the Muslim extemists and how they treat people along with the relatively very, very few UK/US soldiers who break the law.
I have explained to you many times earlier this year Jim that 'extremist muslims' are NOT muslims. They call themselves muslims but are not, and do not represent Islam. Also, this isn't about non-muslims vs. muslims: but inevitable these threads always get turned into such debates.
AshVX220 said:
As has been said, by myself and Shar2, any torture of British or coalition troops will go un-reported as they don't have a media circus monitoring everything they do.
So let's start with innocent civilians and what the enemy has done to them.
Starting with the thing that kicked this whole sorry episode of civilastion off;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11
Then this televised for the world to see;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Marshall_Johnson...
Be under no illusion, what's happeneing to thousands of innocent people and soldiers (British or otherwise) is far worse than this one incident at the hands of a British soldier.
The people we're fighting against are nasty bds who would torture and kill you or I in a heartbeat given half a chance and for no other reason than the fact we disagree with their religious (if you can call it that) beliefs.
There are black prisons that the US have in undisclosed locations where there is torure but no media frenzy. Guantanamo also has secret underground bunkers where red cross and other agencies have no access. Some prisoners are unidentified and unaccounted for. So let's start with innocent civilians and what the enemy has done to them.
Starting with the thing that kicked this whole sorry episode of civilastion off;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11
Then this televised for the world to see;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Marshall_Johnson...
Be under no illusion, what's happeneing to thousands of innocent people and soldiers (British or otherwise) is far worse than this one incident at the hands of a British soldier.
The people we're fighting against are nasty b
ds who would torture and kill you or I in a heartbeat given half a chance and for no other reason than the fact we disagree with their religious (if you can call it that) beliefs.I agree that British soldiers could be tortured and killed and there will be no record of this, though i suspect their family will want to know what happened. Such things do happend, in Chechenya and other countries there have been numerous people tortured and killed that have never been accounted for.
An interesting thing in the wikipedia link was:
"One of Johnson's Saudi colleagues, Abdullah Al-Momin, published a petition message to the kidnappers through Al-Arabia TV. He asked them in the name of Islam to free Johnson as he has nothing to do with the American military, "if they are really Muslims they should release him" Abdullah said."
It was Johnsons colleague who pleaded with the captors to release him. Johnsons colleague was an arab and muslim. Thus, true muslims are not bad and people fighting falsely in the name of islam are wrong.
You also said Wahabbis are the crazy ones. The king of Saudi Arabia who also pleaded with the captors is a Wahabbi!
I dont care about wahabbi or no wahabbi these are divisions created in religion to keep people fighting and arguing with each other (but that a seperate topic all together!).
Jimbeaux said:
Really? So, you are the deciding factor on who is and is not a Muslim? If you think this has nothing to do with "Muslims", then you are misguided. PC BS aside, it has very much to do with it.
"One of Johnson's Saudi colleagues, Abdullah Al-Momin, published a petition message to the kidnappers through Al-Arabia TV. He asked them in the name of Islam to free Johnson as he has nothing to do with the American military, "if they are really Muslims they should release him" Abdullah said."I have already discussed this issue with you at large in the new year, as did my fellow boxing colleague RockyBalboa. You didnt understand then so you wont understand now.
Nuff said.
Dixie68 said:
Nothing, but then what have a few bad apples in the Army got to do with the Army as a whole? People may be sickened by this but I know there are no people more sickened than the average serviceman/woman, if for no other reason than people like Marvin here are quick to tar everyone with the same brush. I was serving in Iraq when this happened and nobody else knew about it, they carried it out in secret because they knew it was wrong and they knew the Army would have hammered them for it.
Seriously, do you think we had 'torture a civilian' parties or something? You will hear no complaints from us about these idiots getting punished for what they did, but I'm getting seriously pissed off with people telling us we are/were scum because of the actions of stupid individuals. Spend a day in the boots of the guys who are still out in Afghanistan and then come and tell me they're scum.
Fair points. I do not (and did not) mean to tarnish all the army as scum.Seriously, do you think we had 'torture a civilian' parties or something? You will hear no complaints from us about these idiots getting punished for what they did, but I'm getting seriously pissed off with people telling us we are/were scum because of the actions of stupid individuals. Spend a day in the boots of the guys who are still out in Afghanistan and then come and tell me they're scum.
There are lots of good guys, but the bad apples leave a very bad taste that taints ones opinion of everyone (even though I know this is wrong to do).
I must clarify that my grandfather was in the British army in World war II so I know of the respect that one should give to the military personnel.
Editied to add: For the record I never used the word 'scum' but I was overtly critical of everyone in the military (irrespective of good and bad apples).
Edited by Marvin Hagler on Thursday 8th September 16:21
Jimbeaux said:
"Black prisons in undisclosed locations" - How do you know this as, by your own account, they are undisclosed?
"Guantanamo also has secret underground bunkers" - So, where did you obtain the Gitmo Schematics; Moonfakers.com?
I dont know nothing Jim. Wikipedia does though:"Guantanamo also has secret underground bunkers" - So, where did you obtain the Gitmo Schematics; Moonfakers.com?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_site
Mojocvh said:
You really do not deserve a reply. Small minded, ignorant, you have NO idea of the harsh realities of warfare but are happy to pass snide remarks and unwarranted opinions.
Oh BTW never mid the squaddies who did the acts, which was terrible enough, where are their direct superiors, those who should have been on top of this in a flash.
I think on reflection you are the one with the small mind and ignorance.Oh BTW never mid the squaddies who did the acts, which was terrible enough, where are their direct superiors, those who should have been on top of this in a flash.
Not one of you guys has provided evidence of a british soldier being brutally tortured. Your saying that stuff get hidden when the soldier dies (this is also true then for Iraqi and Afgahn civilians). The occupying forces are comitting more of the brutality in Iraq and Afghanistan than the opposing forces.
You will believe everything the media write about 9/11, but will start doubting the 'media circus' when your own soldiers are coming under scrutiny.
I have always said torture is wrong, doesnt matter if I know about warfare or extreme combat situation or not. TORTURE IS STILL WRONG.
Jimbeaux said:
WTF has what you just posted pertain in anyway to the point I made except to illustrate that now Abdullah Al-Momin has joined you as the deciding duo of who is and is not Muslim??
You seriously dont get the point i am making? Man your are dumb!I have always said that if you followed islam properly then killing innocent civillians is not advocated in the official religion anywhere. Anybody saying it is, is following an alternative form of islam made up by them. and many ordinary muslims simply do not follow a psuedo-islam.
Muslims do not get any pleasure from beheadings, or kidnappings that are reported on telly whether it be on a muslim or a non-muslim.
Jimbeaux said:
What utter crap. I dare you to even attempt a justification of that statement. Mojocvh is correct, you really don't warrant a reply.
Look at the mainstream news media, independent media, freelance journalists who report mainly of incidencs where Iraqi and afghan people are tortured. They dont mention events occuring the other way round.Please dont confuse torture with actual war combat. I am not talking about the taliban or insurgents firing rockets at british troop, as this is a combat situation, i am talking about detaining and then severely torturing a human being. The majority of the perpetrators of such activities are soldiers.
Perhaps if you all read this article you might realise that abuse and torture is not a few bad apples but a systematic process advocated by the army in the form of traning manuals.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/oct2010/tort-o28...
Just one of the points from the article talks about how interrogators are suggested to conduct torture techniques out of sight from the media, in 'nasty places', 'shipping containers' etc.
It also states that these torture techniques were developed in Borneo, Malaya, South Arabia, Palestine, Cyprus and Northern Ireland. (see this article for Sin Fein leader Gerry Adam's acount of his torture by british soldiers in the 1970's http://www.irishdemocrat.co.uk/features/ba-torture...
You guys will still come back and spout your nonsense about how torture is neccessary or occurs as a consequence of the situation troops are in.
Then there is the true story which was made into a film 'taxi to the other side' - there are many instances where such things happened, but I am not going to start posting links for every story or report....do your own research, instead of the hero worshipping you are doing on here.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/oct2010/tort-o28...
Just one of the points from the article talks about how interrogators are suggested to conduct torture techniques out of sight from the media, in 'nasty places', 'shipping containers' etc.
It also states that these torture techniques were developed in Borneo, Malaya, South Arabia, Palestine, Cyprus and Northern Ireland. (see this article for Sin Fein leader Gerry Adam's acount of his torture by british soldiers in the 1970's http://www.irishdemocrat.co.uk/features/ba-torture...
You guys will still come back and spout your nonsense about how torture is neccessary or occurs as a consequence of the situation troops are in.
Then there is the true story which was made into a film 'taxi to the other side' - there are many instances where such things happened, but I am not going to start posting links for every story or report....do your own research, instead of the hero worshipping you are doing on here.
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