Bring Back Winkie?

[Mr Snap]

Question : Would Angela Merkel have given Gordon Brown the kicking she's currently giving Call Me Dave?

Cat ready! Pigeons, Ready!
Release the animals...!

[Mr Snap]

Zod said:

What exactly is this "kicking"?

Winkie would either not have turned up or would have been in a different room giving a delusional speech about how everyone else had asked him to save the eurozone.

Cameron wants Merkel to buy up bonds, using the ECB, which she won't do because it'll cause German inflation (which the German's have a 'slight' aversion to - please refer to 'causes of WW2'). But, if they don't, we're all basically fked. Merkel, essentially, wants a Tobin tax - meaning she wants the city to pay for the Eurozone crisis.

Winkie, on the other hand, did actually turn up for a scrap. He persuaded the Americans and the rest, to support the banks. Even right wing commentators have admitted he pulled off an amazing coup on that ocassion and that, in future, we'll begin to realise what he achieved. However much you may have hated him, he won one of the most important arguments of the century. CMD may have the right answer, but he hasn't got the cojones to win the argument.
If he doesn't pull his finger out, we're going to get stitched up by Merkel and the other members of the Eurozone. We're going to end up as second rate members of Europe, but at the same time paying for their mistakes.

That's receiving a fking good kicking in my books...

[Mr Snap]

0a said:

Mr Snap said:

Cameron wants Merkel to buy up bonds, using the ECB, which she won't do because it'll cause German inflation (which the German's have a 'slight' aversion to - please refer to 'causes of WW2'). But, if they don't, we're all basically fked. Merkel, essentially, wants a Tobin tax - meaning she wants the city to pay for the Eurozone crisis.

Winkie, on the other hand, did actually turn up for a scrap. He persuaded the Americans and the rest, to support the banks. Even right wing commentators have admitted he pulled off an amazing coup on that ocassion and that, in future, we'll begin to realise what he achieved. However much you may have hated him, he won one of the most important arguments of the century. CMD may have the right answer, but he hasn't got the cojones to win the argument.
If he doesn't pull his finger out, we're going to get stitched up by Merkel and the other members of the Eurozone. We're going to end up as second rate members of Europe, but at the same time paying for their mistakes.

That's receiving a fking good kicking in my books...

I suspect it's all positioning by Merkel trying to make herself look hard headed before the inevitable bond buying begins. It means she can wring as many reforms as possible out of other Euro countries (2 PM scalps to her so far), and ultimately when bond buying starts she can blame the damned UK for it. I can already see the headlines about those Bloody Brits selfishly tanking the Euro.

Cameron is but a pawn in her game of national politics. He won’t get anything out of it at all.

Agreed. But, referring to my OP, would Winkie have done any better? Personally, I think he would.
But, who have we got now, who she wouldn't simply swat?

Is there anyone, on either front bench, who's remotely up to the job?

[Mr Snap]

king arthur said:

Mr Snap said:

Is there anyone, on either front bench, who's remotely up to the job?

William Hague?

I regret to say it, but I think you may be right.
Best of a bad bunch...

I'm even feeling nostalgic about John Major...

[Mr Snap]

And, once we've sailed away from the EU on the good ship England and Northern Ireland, under Captain Nigel (because the welsh and the scots won't have anything to do with leaving the EU), do you seriously think the rest of the world will lie back and let us reassume our 'rightful position', at the top table in world affairs?

Dream on.

[Mr Snap]

dandarez said:

Exactly! Snap probably thinks BMW would immediately close down the successful MINI plant in Cowley.
You said it... 'Dream on!'
Perhaps I should ask the French customer who has just ordered from me if she would cancel if we were outside the EU?
I'll give you one guess as to what her one word reply would be.
Maggie used to utter it regularly!

Edited by dandarez on Saturday 19th November 16:11

Of course, BMW would love to sell us stuff, if we could still afford it. Duh!
They'll sell stuff to anybody who has the cash.

It's got nothing to do with what we would want to buy.
It's to do with the barriers they'd put up against what we want to sell.
Or are you saying that suddenly all those completely worthless, corrupt europeans are going to behave differently when we reject them.

Try a little thought experiment.
Imagine signing a free trade agreement with the french.
Then try to imagine them keeping it.

Like I said. Dream on.

[Mr Snap]

Globs said:

IainZ said:

I don't think we are in violent disagreement as to the situation - but as above, I'm just inclined to be a bit more cautious as to how we deal with it.

I think we are in fairly good disagreement TBH!
We need to be cautious and get out while we still can.

Have you read the next step in the pipeline for us?

http://www.stevebaker.info/2011/10/the-horror-of-t...

Study it and then think about being cautious.

Interesting. But, according to the paper shown at the top end, this doesn't apply to the UK but to the Eurozone.
Looks like an MP being a bit disingenuous... How unusual.

[Mr Snap]

DJRC said:

Mr Snap said:

0a said:

Mr Snap said:

Cameron wants Merkel to buy up bonds, using the ECB, which she won't do because it'll cause German inflation (which the German's have a 'slight' aversion to - please refer to 'causes of WW2'). But, if they don't, we're all basically fked. Merkel, essentially, wants a Tobin tax - meaning she wants the city to pay for the Eurozone crisis.

Winkie, on the other hand, did actually turn up for a scrap. He persuaded the Americans and the rest, to support the banks. Even right wing commentators have admitted he pulled off an amazing coup on that ocassion and that, in future, we'll begin to realise what he achieved. However much you may have hated him, he won one of the most important arguments of the century. CMD may have the right answer, but he hasn't got the cojones to win the argument.
If he doesn't pull his finger out, we're going to get stitched up by Merkel and the other members of the Eurozone. We're going to end up as second rate members of Europe, but at the same time paying for their mistakes.

That's receiving a fking good kicking in my books...

I suspect it's all positioning by Merkel trying to make herself look hard headed before the inevitable bond buying begins. It means she can wring as many reforms as possible out of other Euro countries (2 PM scalps to her so far), and ultimately when bond buying starts she can blame the damned UK for it. I can already see the headlines about those Bloody Brits selfishly tanking the Euro.

Cameron is but a pawn in her game of national politics. He won’t get anything out of it at all.

Agreed. But, referring to my OP, would Winkie have done any better? Personally, I think he would.
But, who have we got now, who she wouldn't simply swat?

Is there anyone, on either front bench, who's remotely up to the job?

Are you joking? Merkel would have eaten Winkie in 2 seconds flat.
As it was CMD didnt do half bad, gave nothing away and maintain the status quo...which right now is the *best* that the UK can do. It aint good, hell no, but following our own austerity plans, our own economic plans, along an independant path to mainland Europe is the best thing Britain can do right now.

I disagree, even Peter Oborn, the right wing Telegraph commentator, said that he was a force to be reckoned with - a flawed man, who made awful mistakes, but a formidable operator who got things right when it really mattered.
CMD - giving nothing away doesn't require much effort, but it's not an achievement. We need someone who has the force to persuade the Germans that they have to refloat the Euro themselves, whether they like it or not. I can't see anyone on either front bench capable of the job.

[Mr Snap]

DJRC said:

Mr Snap said:

DJRC said:

Mr Snap said:

0a said:

Mr Snap said:

Cameron wants Merkel to buy up bonds, using the ECB, which she won't do because it'll cause German inflation (which the German's have a 'slight' aversion to - please refer to 'causes of WW2'). But, if they don't, we're all basically fked. Merkel, essentially, wants a Tobin tax - meaning she wants the city to pay for the Eurozone crisis.

Winkie, on the other hand, did actually turn up for a scrap. He persuaded the Americans and the rest, to support the banks. Even right wing commentators have admitted he pulled off an amazing coup on that ocassion and that, in future, we'll begin to realise what he achieved. However much you may have hated him, he won one of the most important arguments of the century. CMD may have the right answer, but he hasn't got the cojones to win the argument.
If he doesn't pull his finger out, we're going to get stitched up by Merkel and the other members of the Eurozone. We're going to end up as second rate members of Europe, but at the same time paying for their mistakes.

That's receiving a fking good kicking in my books...

I suspect it's all positioning by Merkel trying to make herself look hard headed before the inevitable bond buying begins. It means she can wring as many reforms as possible out of other Euro countries (2 PM scalps to her so far), and ultimately when bond buying starts she can blame the damned UK for it. I can already see the headlines about those Bloody Brits selfishly tanking the Euro.

Cameron is but a pawn in her game of national politics. He won’t get anything out of it at all.

Agreed. But, referring to my OP, would Winkie have done any better? Personally, I think he would.
But, who have we got now, who she wouldn't simply swat?

Is there anyone, on either front bench, who's remotely up to the job?

Are you joking? Merkel would have eaten Winkie in 2 seconds flat.
As it was CMD didnt do half bad, gave nothing away and maintain the status quo...which right now is the *best* that the UK can do. It aint good, hell no, but following our own austerity plans, our own economic plans, along an independant path to mainland Europe is the best thing Britain can do right now.

I disagree, even Peter Oborn, the right wing Telegraph commentator, said that he was a force to be reckoned with - a flawed man, who made awful mistakes, but a formidable operator who got things right when it really mattered.
CMD - giving nothing away doesn't require much effort, but it's not an achievement. We need someone who has the force to persuade the Germans that they have to refloat the Euro themselves, whether they like it or not. I can't see anyone on either front bench capable of the job.

Sorry, you disagree with what? Merkel is in a different league to Brown as a political heavyweight. Sorry Im based over here so my press view isnt just the Uk press, Peter Oborn and what the Telegraph say are irrelevent. Brown is a nobody out here. He didnt save the banking system, he didnt save the global economy, he isnt in line to run any financial institutions. Sorry, but thats the view from the Continent. And you will note from my other posts that Im not exactly The Frau's greatest fan or think she has much chance in the elections next year, but I sure respect her political judgement and will though.

Actually giving nothing away is an achievement. Germany in the shape of The Frau would like nothing better to draw Britain into this or hit London with taxes, either way so long as she gets more money out of the Britain. Resisting that right now should be the headline item in British foreign policy.

You also thoroughly misunderstand both German politics and European politics. Merkel cannot do anything involving giving more Germany money away. Her Parliament will not back her to do that, she no longer has the political capital at home. She used the last of it up in the last vote which was just to expand the size of the Stability fund *in theory* but not how to fund it. Next year she is already unlikely to win the election because of the money given away by Germany so far and she is under every last % of pressure that Mr Bruni can bring to bear to ensure she does not deviate from the current path because the French economy is staring down the gun barrel.

There is not a damn thing anybody in the UK could say to The Frau that would shift her in any way shape or form from her current position, because she cant move.

I think you're reading more in to what I said than I intended. Of course Brown is a nobody today - just like any ex PM. But my impression was - I repeat, my impression - that on, maybe, the only thing he ever got right he was listened to, by Merkel and Obama and the rest. Maybe he was a total psychotic but he got it right once and I don't think he got his way then by being smarmy. Nor do I think it was luck, he was for that one thing the right person at the right time. Just like Margaret was bang on right about some things (but horribly wrong on other things).

I don't disagree with you regarding Merkel's position vis a vis the German parliament. The point is, that this position needs to be overturned. The Germans wanted the Euro; they and the French pushed it forward into countries that couldn't cope and now they're reaping the whirlwind. If they won't allow anyone to drop out of the Euro, they should at least back it themselves and not expect us to do it for them. And we need someone tough enough to take that argument into the heart of Europe and make it stick and, I'm sorry, but I don't think Dave is the man for the job. He isn't a big enough beast.
Hague might have the bottle but I'm not convinced.

A lot of people here seem to think Farrage is the man of the moment. But, as far as I'm concerned, he strikes me as a kind of mirror image of Tony Benn - amusing to listen to and with important things to say, but also a complete and utter fruitcake, whom I could never vote for. Besides, he's a one man band, UKIP doesn't have the manpower or the quality in depth to run a government.

[Mr Snap]

Andy Zarse said:

Mr Snap said:

I disagree, even Peter Oborn, the right wing Telegraph commentator, said that he was a force to be reckoned with - a flawed man, who made awful mistakes, but a formidable operator who got things right when it really mattered.

Yes, signing the Lisbon Treaty in virtual secrecy and backing out of a referendum was a masterstroke.

Perhaps you could give us some other examples of him getting things right when it really mattered? Not joining the Euro, you say? Down to his own control freakery I'm afraid. He'd hankered after the CoE job so long he was buggered if he was going to give away the power.

He did however - virtually - give away our gold reserves, another example of getting it right I assume? He was interviewed just before the last GE and questioned about his acumen in the decision. He smuggly stated he'd used the receipts to purchase Euro denominated assets and these had greatly risen in value. The stupid gurning tt sat there not realising the only reason the Euro assets had risen was because his hopeless spendthrift policies had sent the value of Sterling down the tubes. Sadly the interviewer was similarly too stupid to spot the flaw in his grand plan...

Don't disagree with anything you say. I've said it before maybe it was the only thing he ever got right - but he did get it right and he deserves the credit for it (which, like I said, Oborn gave him). There are things that the current government aren't getting right now - such as possibly selling off Northern Rock too early. Do you get in the same sort of lather over that?

[Mr Snap]

Globs said:

Mr Snap said:

A lot of people here seem to think Farrage is the man of the moment. But, as far as I'm concerned, he strikes me as a kind of mirror image of Tony Benn - amusing to listen to and with important things to say, but also a complete and utter fruitcake, whom I could never vote for.

I haven't heard a single thing he has said that suggests he is a fruitcake.
I think you are confusing people who disagree with your world view with 'fruitcakes'.
In the EU speeches he is clearly the only sane man in the room.

Perhaps you can give me an example of why you think he is a 'fruitcake'.

Mr Snap said:

Besides, he's a one man band, UKIP doesn't have the manpower or the quality in depth to run a government.

Actually UKIP contested almost every seat in the country and polled 8% of the vote.
It's not a one man band, it's a serious alternative to voting for the Lib/Lab/Con/EU party.

As for manpower and depth - we have a civil service to run the country, and the executive decisions for the past 20 years have been questionable to say the least. You imply that Major, Bliar, Winky and Cameron have more quality and depth. I have yet to see any evidence that they have more quality and depth than the average 5 year old.

Maybe I didn't express myself well. I meant that Farrage sounds fine but he looks a bit weird. To my eyes he looks shifty and, call me shallow, but I'm not prepared to overlook it or vote for a party that considers him to be leadership material. In the speeches you refer to, I think he looks like a nutter and I know plenty of other people who agree with me. They won't vote for him because they don't believe his body language matches his words or that he has the ability to lead a country.

And I wouldn't have voted for Tony Benn for the same reasons. Nor for Brown, if I'd had the chance.

As to Ukip contesting so many seats. I don't have figures but, prior to the demise of Screaming Lord Such, the Official Monster Raving Looney Party managed to contest hundreds of seats, too. So what? A load of middle aged blokes who get aerated about Eurocrats isn't a fully functioning political party, it's just a bunch of aerated middle aged blokes. Meanwhile, their children are probably voting Green. I'm interested in politics but, apart from UKips anti-european views, I know nothing about them or their views on other issues. They fail to make the political weather and I can't really see them breaking the current stranglehold of the Lib/Lab/Con status quo.

Oh, and your figures are wrong. The House of Commons says you got 3.1% of the votes. I tend to believe them, not you. http://electionresources.org/uk/house.php?election...

[Mr Snap]

Globs said:

Mr Snap said:

Maybe I didn't express myself well. I meant that Farrage sounds fine but he looks a bit weird. To my eyes he looks shifty and, call me shallow,

You seem to be retracting the 'fruitcake' accusation, good. You may not like the way he looks, but he's one of a small handful of elected people actually fighting your corner.

Calling him names is a strange way of thanking him.

Mr Snap said:

As to Ukip contesting so many seats. I don't have figures but, prior to the demise of Screaming Lord Such, the Official Monster Raving Looney Party managed to contest hundreds of seats, too. So what? A load of middle aged blokes who get aerated about Eurocrats isn't a fully functioning political party, it's just a bunch of aerated middle aged blokes. Meanwhile, their children are probably voting Green. I'm interested in politics but, apart from UKips anti-european views, I know nothing about them or their views on other issues.

You are very opinionated about something you admit you know nothing about.
A touch of the europhile hysteria at a party not towing the official line?

Mr Snap said:

They fail to make the political weather and I can't really see them breaking the current stranglehold of the Lib/Lab/Con status quo.

Parties don't break strangleholds, this is a democracy - you have to vote for parties to get elected. I appreciate this concept may be new to you as someone who is into the EU, but it really is down to people voting.

Mr Snap said:

Oh, and your figures are wrong. The House of Commons says you got 3.1% of the votes. I tend to believe them, not you. http://electionresources.org/uk/house.php?election...

Yes I see, I wonder why I thought it was 8%, perhaps I was thinking of the total non Lib/Lab/Con/EU block vote.

I would tend to think of UKIP as not having much chance but for the rapid increase in their popularity, and the fact tha same is happening all over europe. Austria the anti-EU oarty is currently ahead of the government, and there are many european countries with fast growing anti-Eu (pro democracy) movements. The tide has turned against the EU, politically their support is ebbing away, faster now as their true colours are revealed. Greece and Italy must have seemed a great idea to the cabal but it has sparked a sea change of conscience in europe. Europeans are waking up to the EU, and not liking what they see.

But I'm not into the EU, certainly not as it's currently constituted. The current situation re Greece and Italy is profoundly undemocratic. I just don't believe Nige is the man to sort it.
I know nothing about them because they fail to get their views across - apart from "EUROPE! DUNNIT MAKE YER PISS BOIL?". I haven't a clue what else they stand for. And, I'd argue, that's their failure not mine.