Homeowner arrested for stabbing burglar
Discussion
Do we need to arrest this 78 year old chap. Traumatised then arrested for good measure. I'd have given him a hot drink and a blanket
Happened in Walthamstow today
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/homeowner-78...
sorry for the wail
Happened in Walthamstow today
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/homeowner-78...
sorry for the wail
Edited by julian64 on Wednesday 4th April 10:43
If the facts are as the mirror then I have a problem with this.
the bib on here are very much matter of fact 'he has nothing to worry about', he's not been charged with anything. No homeowner protecting his property in a reasonable manner has anything to worry about
But I personally think this age group ARE affected and traumatised by just being arrested. If the facts are as stated then by all means investigate the circumstances but why arrest?
At face value I would not arrest this chap, I'd get his family round and some counselling service and only arrest him if I thought there was something a lot more fishy going on. I'd be giving him a great deal of sympathy right now.
Do we think there is something here that isn't face value or do we think its right that everyone involved including the likely victim gets handcuffed and chucked in pokey till its all sorted out.
the bib on here are very much matter of fact 'he has nothing to worry about', he's not been charged with anything. No homeowner protecting his property in a reasonable manner has anything to worry about
But I personally think this age group ARE affected and traumatised by just being arrested. If the facts are as stated then by all means investigate the circumstances but why arrest?
At face value I would not arrest this chap, I'd get his family round and some counselling service and only arrest him if I thought there was something a lot more fishy going on. I'd be giving him a great deal of sympathy right now.
Do we think there is something here that isn't face value or do we think its right that everyone involved including the likely victim gets handcuffed and chucked in pokey till its all sorted out.
crofty1984 said:
I think the police have done the right thing, as long as they're treating the old boy kindly. Anyone with half a brain can see what's happened, but the only FACTS of which they can be certain is that one person (albeit a 
) is dead and another person probably killed them.
When this bloke is found innocent you want to make sure that every I is dotted and every t is crossed. So maybe they do have to go through this pantomime. You don't want Scrotey Mcwker's lot trying to poke holes after the fact, the loss of earnings from his promising young football career, etc...
I just hope it's all done soon and isn't too traumatic for the chap.
Oh yes of course silly me, they were actually protecting him by arresting him. I see it now.) is dead and another person probably killed them. When this bloke is found innocent you want to make sure that every I is dotted and every t is crossed. So maybe they do have to go through this pantomime. You don't want Scrotey Mcw
ker's lot trying to poke holes after the fact, the loss of earnings from his promising young football career, etc...I just hope it's all done soon and isn't too traumatic for the chap.
Derek Smith said:
julian64 said:
Oh yes of course silly me, they were actually protecting him by arresting him. I see it now.
Yes, rather silly of you. Being arrested allows you rights which are not immediately available to those not arrested.Do you see it now?
Firstly if this eventually appears to be reflective of face value you have sent out some poor signals. You have basically said there is no presumption of innocence of the house holder who gets up in the night to defend his house. You have therefore emboldened a criminal element.
Secondly arrest removes a whole bunch of fairly important rights, which most people would be less happy to trade for the rights you gain,. than you.
Thirdly you may have missed the bit in the reports about various neighbours suggesting the area has deteriorated in crime statistics over the past few years. What kind of signal do you think it sends to those in the surrounding area.
At no point is anyone suggesting you shouldn't investigate. Things are not always as they appear, but this sort of policing is right up there with ignoring crime to concentrate on car speeding in terms of police public relations
Its about time someone with some common sense took a little more control of police policy.
Derek Smith said:
stuff
Oh dear. Process is not the ideal I want a police officer to aspire to. I would prefer protection of the victim to be the ideal, even if it turned out later you were wrong.I'd be happier if the police tried to do the right thing but failed, than put process ahead of the person
Unfortunately I think you and I will have to differ on this. There is a reason lawyers and solicitors prefer process over everything. But I think we have more than enough of both of those in this world.
To arrest someone isn't viewed as trivial by the majority of the population, and if it were viewed as process, or trivial, can you imagine what effect it would have on the general populations psyche.
If you think they were right to arrest this chap then fair enough Derek, but I'm surprised you think the message it sends out is unimportant.
All I wanted to see on this thread I started were the usual suspects justifying the victims arrest. Apart from von which I am sorely aggrieved to see didn't decide to post his usual defence of the law, all the other usual suspects did not disappoint.
1) Arresting him is trivial and should be viewed as process
2) He was arrested to protect his rights (I especially like this one it was a laugh out loud moment for me)
3) Anything else would be showing favouritism to the victim over the burglar.
4) It prevents us looking like a load of vigilantes.
I think that's got all of them. I think I posted this fairly hot off the press so that at the start it was much less certain about the identity of all involved and what I was expecting was a discussion around the subject of how the police would react based on their initial impression. I didn't/ don't really care what the law currently says in respect of how they currently treat either victims or perpetrators. Its easy to see how it is currently handled and if there were any doubt I suspect AGT/Derek or one of the legal bods on here could oblige as they always do.
For me personally its demonstrated pretty much the usual PH confusion about the point of the discussion, followed by confirming my view as to why the police will never get control of either the knife culture or criminal culture in this country. Its probably got a lot to do with funding, but it also has a lot to do with how they try to tackle communities with no sort of empathy and probably leave with the criminals and non criminal element equally alienated. As stupid as it sounds, the police need a PR agency and quite a bit of money spent on building bridges, all money that we don't have and isn't going to be spent.
1) Arresting him is trivial and should be viewed as process
2) He was arrested to protect his rights (I especially like this one it was a laugh out loud moment for me)
3) Anything else would be showing favouritism to the victim over the burglar.
4) It prevents us looking like a load of vigilantes.
I think that's got all of them. I think I posted this fairly hot off the press so that at the start it was much less certain about the identity of all involved and what I was expecting was a discussion around the subject of how the police would react based on their initial impression. I didn't/ don't really care what the law currently says in respect of how they currently treat either victims or perpetrators. Its easy to see how it is currently handled and if there were any doubt I suspect AGT/Derek or one of the legal bods on here could oblige as they always do.
For me personally its demonstrated pretty much the usual PH confusion about the point of the discussion, followed by confirming my view as to why the police will never get control of either the knife culture or criminal culture in this country. Its probably got a lot to do with funding, but it also has a lot to do with how they try to tackle communities with no sort of empathy and probably leave with the criminals and non criminal element equally alienated. As stupid as it sounds, the police need a PR agency and quite a bit of money spent on building bridges, all money that we don't have and isn't going to be spent.
Derek Smith said:
julian64 said:
All I wanted to see on this thread I started were the usual suspects justifying the victims arrest.
You got what you asked for and still you complain. No satisfying some people.You have no more idea of what went on than the police officers, ex and current, do on here. All that has happened is that they have given possibilities as to why. There's been no unreasonable extrapolation, how could there be as no one really knows what went on. At least no unreasonable extrapolation by the police. The conclusions in your post are based on what you think might have happened.
You seem to be admitting to not starting the thread for a discussion. Says it all really.
In this case the police arrive with a fairly obvious, but by no means certain storyline. In our society they have been told to arrest everyone to gather evidence etc and they followed their instructions.
If they do this, its obvious they 'Daily mail outrage' pretty much the whole community, setting back any hope of community relations years.
If they don't do this then they possibly fall foul of the legal system in terms of lawyers being able to run rings around them in court with respect to following any due process or maybe even muck up a conviction
The discussion, from only my humble point of view, is really which Is most important?.
You could of course just argue the polar discussion which is burn him or knight him, but that isn't very interesting. Justifying the arrest is interesting on thinking the consequences or doing, or not doing it. I'm pretty much in the don't camp but I agree there are problem ahead with that, but the police and community would move closer together if the general public were behind most of their actions to the point where I think society would vastly improve..
pavarotti1980 said:
So if you were in charge that what would have been your course of action?
Arrest/not arrest?
Preserve scene/not preserve scene
Treat the bloke as suspect until proven otherwise/take his word for it and if needed give him an appointment to pop into the police station (bearing in mind he probably admitted stabbing the other bloke)?
Okay so I would have treated/trusted him as a victim. I would have tried to take them both to a hotel or other place of safety and explained this was because we needed the house for investigation. If he had refused to leave I would have allowed that but bundled him upstairs with his wife while the investigation went on downstairs There would be no arrest of him, but all the while I would continue to investigate both sides of the story for as long as needed.Arrest/not arrest?
Preserve scene/not preserve scene
Treat the bloke as suspect until proven otherwise/take his word for it and if needed give him an appointment to pop into the police station (bearing in mind he probably admitted stabbing the other bloke)?
Obviously I would risk a little more in terms of contamination and less freedom to investigate but as the police, I think the wider community would understand that. There would be no backlash as there is now.
The worst possible scenario would be a later story unfolding which put the victim in a darker light shades of tony martin or entrapment etc, and if that did happen I would be prepared to take the blame for that having done the reasonable thing with initial evidence presented. I don't think its unreasonable to regard the owner occupier of the house as a victim in this situation.
Breadvan72 said:
Factoids: Travellers make up probably below 1% of the population of the UK (0.1% on census, but assume that is an understatement). Travellers make up about 5% of the UK prison population.
Travellers' alleged immunity from prosecution seems not to be working all that well.
The two aren't mutually exclusive. Seemed obvious to me.Travellers' alleged immunity from prosecution seems not to be working all that well.
oyster said:
This nonsense again.
The nonsense that normal legal process suddenly goes out the window because it involves a homeowner in their own property. If we avoid arresting someone on suspicion of a crime in their own property then why should we not avoid arresting any suspect ever.
The police cannot treat one suspect different from another immediately after a potential crime has taken place.
Your use of the word nonsense is ironic?The nonsense that normal legal process suddenly goes out the window because it involves a homeowner in their own property. If we avoid arresting someone on suspicion of a crime in their own property then why should we not avoid arresting any suspect ever.
The police cannot treat one suspect different from another immediately after a potential crime has taken place.
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