Crypto Currency Thread
Discussion
NRS said:
Theoretically. In reality Bitcoin has an issue with your exchange being hacked, your hard disk corrupting, your house catching fire and destroying the disk etc. With no back up. Not to mention the general massive drop in price recently wiping out a lot of your savings even if it is still accessible to you.
Right now, I'd agree that exchanges make for really dreadful banks and holding your own bitcoin isn't trivially easy. All these things are transient infrastructural elements & nothing to do with the security of the bitcoin protocol. Since it launched nearly 10 years ago, Bitcoin has been up and running 99.9925% of the time and has not been hacked.Any drop in price (or any spike in price) is also transient volatility as the market finds its value. It's early days.
zubzob said:
Fair enough. Though it’s quite hard to have a serious debate about a hypothetical future where “ 2% inflation target monetarism” is no longer the dominant system in developed nations.
I mean, where do we even start to have a serious debate about that? Goes way beyond bitcoin. and we probably need degrees in economics to do it justice.
Good point, there are deep unknowns but they are perfectly debatable.I mean, where do we even start to have a serious debate about that? Goes way beyond bitcoin. and we probably need degrees in economics to do it justice.
For example, what will happen if there's a recession in the next few years (quite plausible & in my view probable) and there's no charge left in the monetarist emergency jump-starter kit? Is the solution formed by Brown's G20 in the aftermath of 2008 going to work again? I doubt it. There is no room for interest rates to go lower. Can a few quadrillions be helicoptered in again with no long term effect? Can the world's leading nations be corralled again, as Brown did, for a united effort to stave off financial disaster? With Trump & Brexit style nationalism and protectionism hanging in the air right across the world, I doubt it.
I'm not suggesting this will lead directly to Bitcoin at the next recession. But it may well lead to enormous turbulence which longer term leads to fundamental changes. For example, will the dollar survive as the world's reserve currency?
Behemoth said:
I'm not suggesting this will lead directly to Bitcoin at the next recession. But it may well lead to enormous turbulence which longer term leads to fundamental changes. For example, will the dollar survive as the world's reserve currency?
Possibly not, but cant you see that the whole point the Dollar has been the reserve currency for so many years is precisely the fact it is backed by the US Government and managed by a central bank?! That is what people value, they value the stability and the management of the currency and know that the US government is not going to default on its debts. Bitcoin is apparently the future because it doesnt have a central bank or government backing, but you're contradicting yourself. And you've not answered most of my other questions from the last post, I feel that your argument is wearing thin.
Condi said:
Possibly not, but cant you see that the whole point the Dollar has been the reserve currency for so many years is precisely the fact it is backed by the US Government and managed by a central bank?! That is what people value, they value the stability and the management of the currency and know that the US government is not going to default on its debts. Bitcoin is apparently the future because it doesnt have a central bank or government backing, but you're contradicting yourself.
And you've not answered most of my other questions from the last post, I feel that your argument is wearing thin.
I have not answered your other questions because you are repeating questions you have asked before which I have already answered.And you've not answered most of my other questions from the last post, I feel that your argument is wearing thin.
The US is risking reserve status by borrowing too much. Next recession, the dollar may not retain its strength. Foreign investors will be reluctant to buy up new US treasury bonds that will need to be issued to cover, eg, unmet pensions obligations. The US has already borrowed hugely to recover from the last recession. The $15 trillion Treasury market was the $5 trillion ten years ago. Maybe there will be a magic way out of this. We'll see.
zubzob said:
Well this is my point really. Bitcoin’s valuation is derived from fear and doubt. Fear of a black swan event,and a hedge against usd.
Elsewhere, today, btc appeals to the financially vulnerable and economically unstable.
But wealth tends to consolidate with the powerful, so the financially vulnerable will always have the minority of wealth. So even if bitcoin finds utility in hyper inflated nations etc, it will always be a niche case use, not very relevant to major economies.
the only scenario I can imagine where bitcoin has use in developed countries is a complete economic meltdown and reset. Which I think deep down, is what most btc fans secretly desire.
Yes, it's not a bad "what if" hedge. However, I don't wish any sort of complete economic meltdown. There's far too much at stake. Bitcoin remaining within niche use cases is very plausible & in my view far more likely than it going to zero.Elsewhere, today, btc appeals to the financially vulnerable and economically unstable.
But wealth tends to consolidate with the powerful, so the financially vulnerable will always have the minority of wealth. So even if bitcoin finds utility in hyper inflated nations etc, it will always be a niche case use, not very relevant to major economies.
the only scenario I can imagine where bitcoin has use in developed countries is a complete economic meltdown and reset. Which I think deep down, is what most btc fans secretly desire.
Edited by zubzob on Thursday 13th September 17:48
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-45526365
Tech Tent: Has crypto-currency peaked?
''He says many left during the 2017 Bitcoin bubble. "You couldn't trust it for volatility, you couldn't trust it because transactions were slow and often didn't go through at all. It really destroyed the use-case for the general merchant acceptance of cryptos."
He sums up his view of the whole crypto market: "It's not really very interesting or shiny any more."
But Christopher Shake sees it very differently"It is sticking around because it has value. It's sticking around because it's a great technology, and that's why institutions are getting into it."
"But Bitcoin is more of a strong cultist advocate thing for people who are into it."
Tech Tent: Has crypto-currency peaked?
''He says many left during the 2017 Bitcoin bubble. "You couldn't trust it for volatility, you couldn't trust it because transactions were slow and often didn't go through at all. It really destroyed the use-case for the general merchant acceptance of cryptos."
He sums up his view of the whole crypto market: "It's not really very interesting or shiny any more."
But Christopher Shake sees it very differently"It is sticking around because it has value. It's sticking around because it's a great technology, and that's why institutions are getting into it."
"But Bitcoin is more of a strong cultist advocate thing for people who are into it."
Condi said:
Thesprucegoose said:
"But Bitcoin is more of a strong cultist advocate thing for people who are into it."
quelle surpriseIt's a shame the BBC didn't have someone more intelligent to take the other side of the argument. Art token nonsense is far too easy to dismiss.
paulrockliffe said:
I think anyone that expects that wider society will approve of a new financial system that allows early adopters to walk off with a huge proportion of the value, without leaving a way for society to redress that imbalance is more likely to be failing to take the long-view.
What I mean is, you have lots of bitcoin and no assets, I have no bitcoin and £300k in assets. How do we revalue my assets into bitcoin without you giving me yours? And you're not going to give them to me are you obviously.
But then I (and 10s of millions like me) are going to ensure that the future isn't bitcoin, or anything else that magically creates value using algorithms that are divorced from the current distribution of wealth.
Blockchain has a future, but this stuff is going nowhere in the longterm. Sorry.
Lol no reason to be sorry, i was only taking the piss. The only practical use i can see for bitcoin today is parting the naive from their money, and / or criminal activities. What I mean is, you have lots of bitcoin and no assets, I have no bitcoin and £300k in assets. How do we revalue my assets into bitcoin without you giving me yours? And you're not going to give them to me are you obviously.
But then I (and 10s of millions like me) are going to ensure that the future isn't bitcoin, or anything else that magically creates value using algorithms that are divorced from the current distribution of wealth.
Blockchain has a future, but this stuff is going nowhere in the longterm. Sorry.
Behemoth said:
No surprise at all, coming from David Gerard. You'd appreciate his anti-crypto ranting & I can highly recommend his book (10,000 ft Blockchain) to you.
It's a shame the BBC didn't have someone more intelligent to take the other side of the argument. Art token nonsense is far too easy to dismiss.
For someone whining about ad-hominem attacks uptgread you do seem to rather rely on them yourself.It's a shame the BBC didn't have someone more intelligent to take the other side of the argument. Art token nonsense is far too easy to dismiss.
Why do you feel they are not fair when directed at you but fine when you deploy them?
It’s not even as though asking if you believe in conspiracy theories is even an ad-hominem attack at all. I’d bet a small amount on you believing in several of them.
James_B said:
For someone whining about ad-hominem attacks uptgread you do seem to rather rely on them yourself.
Why do you feel they are not fair when directed at you but fine when you deploy them?
It’s not even as though asking if you believe in conspiracy theories is even an ad-hominem attack at all. I’d bet a small amount on you believing in several of them.
What would you bet? And on what precisely? I may take this bet.Why do you feel they are not fair when directed at you but fine when you deploy them?
It’s not even as though asking if you believe in conspiracy theories is even an ad-hominem attack at all. I’d bet a small amount on you believing in several of them.
James_B said:
For someone whining about ad-hominem attacks uptgread you do seem to rather rely on them yourself.
Why do you feel they are not fair when directed at you but fine when you deploy them?
It’s not even as though asking if you believe in conspiracy theories is even an ad-hominem attack at all. I’d bet a small amount on you believing in several of them.
I'm not sure you quite grasp what an ad hominem is, whilst being happy to redeploy one Why do you feel they are not fair when directed at you but fine when you deploy them?
It’s not even as though asking if you believe in conspiracy theories is even an ad-hominem attack at all. I’d bet a small amount on you believing in several of them.
David Gerard's book is packed full of rants, as is the book that sits (roughly) on the other side of the discussion, Saifedean Ammous' The Bitcoin Standard. They are both enjoyable reads.
btw Gerard's book is called "Attack of the 50ft Blockchain", not 10,000ft as I wrongly recalled upthread. I suspect if he updated it, he could well retitle it so.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/100m-twins-...
"£100m twins from south London created cryptocurrency in mum's kitchen"
wonder how many free coins these two flung at the reporter to get their coverage.
"£100m twins from south London created cryptocurrency in mum's kitchen"
wonder how many free coins these two flung at the reporter to get their coverage.
kev1974 said:
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/100m-twins-...
"£100m twins from south London created cryptocurrency in mum's kitchen"
wonder how many free coins these two flung at the reporter to get their coverage.
Good for them. I still can't quite get my head around the whole ICO thing. Do you need a website like these guys have with all the flannel on it?"£100m twins from south London created cryptocurrency in mum's kitchen"
wonder how many free coins these two flung at the reporter to get their coverage.
CzechItOut said:
Good for them. I still can't quite get my head around the whole ICO thing. Do you need a website like these guys have with all the flannel on it?
https://i.redd.it/5rnf2kbn72901.jpgYou make a white paper, talk about billion pound market, swap your stupid token for eth and BTC. Retain a vast proportion of your tokens as well. Work out a bedsit whilst sitting laughing at all the suckers who backed you.
Drag this out for years saying you've been delayed etc. In the meantime cash out your eth and BTC and s
t tokens and retire to the sun. Rinse and repeat. It was all well whilst BTC and eth price went higher now it is pretty much fked they have only made a few million instead of the hundreds of millions.
They whole ico world is shady as fk but seems to tapped into a market disenfranchised with the stock exchange, the millennials. The crash affected them the most and I would bet the under 30 make up a massive share of ico backers.
Drag this out for years saying you've been delayed etc. In the meantime cash out your eth and BTC and s
t tokens and retire to the sun. Rinse and repeat. It was all well whilst BTC and eth price went higher now it is pretty much fked they have only made a few million instead of the hundreds of millions.They whole ico world is shady as f
k but seems to tapped into a market disenfranchised with the stock exchange, the millennials. The crash affected them the most and I would bet the under 30 make up a massive share of ico backers.They do have quite a comprehensive whitepaper and website. Lots of generic waffle, but more than enough to make you not think *scam* from the outset.
They also have a fairly active Twitter and lots of posts on Reddit.
Whether their invoice discounting business plan has legs and their beta has meaningful functionality, I have no idea.
I've seen a few ICOs that look like they were knocked up in an afternoon. At least these guys have put a bit of effort in.
They also have a fairly active Twitter and lots of posts on Reddit.
Whether their invoice discounting business plan has legs and their beta has meaningful functionality, I have no idea.
I've seen a few ICOs that look like they were knocked up in an afternoon. At least these guys have put a bit of effort in.
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