best tax haven to avoid cgt without living there?
Discussion
DonkeyApple said:
Manks said:
This would make sense. I can imagine that he disposed of his assests in their entirety from Dublin, which I am guessing has more favourable CGT rules than us.
Maybe. People used to head down to Gib and buy a crappy flat (home) for the purpose of disposing of assets with tax liabilities from there, once done they would usually toddle off. Many came back to the UK but I suspect they are now being persued.Eric, I was guessing ref CGT. But whatever he was up to I suspect Irl was an important part of it.
Eric Mc said:
It can be all very subjective.
A final court decsion on a person's domicile can rest on an overall "feel" for the situation. Fulfilling all the date requirements and assets owned in "the old country" requirements are only a general indicator rather than proof positive as to where an individual's domicile might lie.
Well, his mum was born outside of the UK then lived in the UK for 40 years and then emigrated back to her native country (in the EU where he claimed residency). I believe this might have helped in his situation since although he was born in the UK, his parents weren't, so effectively he also had the possibility of assuming domicility in his mother's country of birth.A final court decsion on a person's domicile can rest on an overall "feel" for the situation. Fulfilling all the date requirements and assets owned in "the old country" requirements are only a general indicator rather than proof positive as to where an individual's domicile might lie.
I think the main factor that helped him was that he had zero income and business interests in the UK. The property there was simply an assett which was used from time to time but his property abroad was used more and so deemed his main residence.
robsti said:
How do footballers do it?
I once attended a seminar on both CGT and IHT, and the very subject of premier league footballers tax avoidance measures came up. The suggestion was made that many of them have their salaries paid into offshore trust funds, then receive loans from those trust funds in lieu of wages, thereby avoiding UK taxes on their earnings.DonkeyApple said:
Maybe. People used to head down to Gib and buy a crappy flat (home) for the purpose of disposing of assets with tax liabilities from there, once done they would usually toddle off. Many came back to the UK but I suspect they are now being persued.
Those crappy flats you refer to can be over 500k! My home is in Gib. Fantastic place to be based in my opinion. (Although yes some parts of it are a bit crappy)Wings said:
robsti said:
How do footballers do it?
I once attended a seminar on both CGT and IHT, and the very subject of premier league footballers tax avoidance measures came up. The suggestion was made that many of them have their salaries paid into offshore trust funds, then receive loans from those trust funds in lieu of wages, thereby avoiding UK taxes on their earnings.Footballers now get paid part of their salary as image rights which is paid to an offshore company in which they are a shareholder. Again HMRC are going after these too.
Silver993tt said:
An old colleague of mine left the UK years ago (back in the 90's and maintained the 91 day/180 day requirement. He kept a house in the UK, a car and a bank account for small maintenance purchases primarily for the house there. All of his business was outside of the UK including owning a couple of properties, bank accounts etc. He had no direct family or any income from the UK. He used to visit the UK fairly regularly, like once a month for 3-4 days. The IR took a look at his situation and found no problems.
Difference is claiming non-domicile or non-residency. Different rules.GT03ROB said:
Difference is claiming non-domicile or non-residency. Different rules.
Well what else are people trying to do to avoid paying UK tax? You either have to be not ordinarily resident or non-domicile with no income or business interests in the UK. Maybe I missed something but how else are people attempting to avoid UK tax?Interesting thread this has turned into. I am a non-resident, P80 filled in and last income tax paid on my bonus last month. I may rack up 30 days in the UK through work and family holidays, but have currently have a flat in my name in the Uk, which due to family circumstances I have leant to mother. Are the IR still going to come after me then? I currently have a growing sum tucked away in the IoM and am looking into QROPSing my UK company pensions.
I could cope with summer in the UK, but would have to spend winter either in Asia or South West USA tbh.
DonkeyApple said:
Even most expats cannot deal with staying in their location if they are not working.
The simple fact is that for 99.9% of Britons it is better to graft it out in the UK, take it in the arse from the tax man and enjoy your life. 99.9% of those people don't realise this. Some even go so far as to sell up and then 2 years later wake up one morning in some sunny s
thole and realise they've ruined their life.
Ignoring your comments about the Far East...retirement planning is something we were discussing at the weekend. The plan is to use the favourable tax here to save up to be able to afford a nice getaway somewhere later - is it difficult to retire to another country that you don't have any ties to (ie never worked in)? The simple fact is that for 99.9% of Britons it is better to graft it out in the UK, take it in the arse from the tax man and enjoy your life. 99.9% of those people don't realise this. Some even go so far as to sell up and then 2 years later wake up one morning in some sunny s
thole and realise they've ruined their life.I could cope with summer in the UK, but would have to spend winter either in Asia or South West USA tbh.
Bing o said:
Ignoring your comments about the Far East...retirement planning is something we were discussing at the weekend. The plan is to use the favourable tax here to save up to be able to afford a nice getaway somewhere later - is it difficult to retire to another country that you don't have any ties to (ie never worked in)?
I could cope with summer in the UK, but would have to spend winter either in Asia or South West USA tbh.
Similar position , I could cope with summer in the UK, but would have to spend winter either in Asia or South West USA tbh.
I sold up in 2000 no House or permanent residency in the UK ,have a bank account with minimal amount that ticks over ,
visit the UK on average about 30 days a year staying with family when visiting.
House In France ( allowed 180 days ) with out paying Income tax , normally stay in France around 20 days a year , ( pay council tax )bank account nominal amount
The majority of time is spent in Russia work ( 280 - 300 days a year ) pay Russian income tax at 13%
although now have 3 year work visa its essentialy PAYE. bank account nominal amount
The rest of the time is in Egypt ,Holiday home bank account ( main account )
Wife and family travel with me ( kids not at school age yet )
No would be interesting if I moved the family back to the UK , and bought a house and put the kids in school , as I would still be outside the 91 day rule , Would the IR , view this as permanent residency ?
what happens if its in the wifes name only ?
guessing in worse case scenario it would be off setting 13% income tax paid in Russia with 60% in the UK , ?
or Domicile in Russia and move the wife / kids to France and play the 180 day game there ?
Bing o said:
Interesting thread this has turned into. I am a non-resident, P80 filled in and last income tax paid on my bonus last month. I may rack up 30 days in the UK through work and family holidays, but have currently have a flat in my name in the Uk, which due to family circumstances I have leant to mother. Are the IR still going to come after me then?
No. In all the years I was non-resident; always had a UK property; always had cars registered, taxed, insured in the UK; always maintained bank acconts in the UK; hell was even employed by a UK company once. Not a problem. These are only thing the IR may consider if there is any doubt as to your residence status. Somebody who has a full time job, working overseas for a foreign company is rarely somebody over whom there is a doubtrobsti said:
How do footballers do it?
Image Rights
Basic salary is paid in the UK and taxed. For some, their basic salary is below the 40% mark.
The rest is packaged up as 'image rights' fees paid to an offshore company that owns those rights.
You then leave the money there or take loans out at market rate, in some schemes no rate but that has caused problems.
Others will take a final job at the end of their careers overseas and draw the funds out while there before returning to Blighty.
If people think bankers are not paying tax they ought to have a look at the sport and media industry, as no one at the top level is paying tax on anywhere near their earning levels. It's the joy of production companies, image rights, not understanding what constitutes evasion, taking up dodgy schemes foisted by managers on a % take etc etc.
If the population realised that the real avoidance in the UK was being carried out by those people they knock one out to every day and not the group currently being pilloried then there could be some interesting repurcusions re the all encompassing love of the media and sports superstars.
marky1 said:
DonkeyApple said:
Maybe. People used to head down to Gib and buy a crappy flat (home) for the purpose of disposing of assets with tax liabilities from there, once done they would usually toddle off. Many came back to the UK but I suspect they are now being persued.
Those crappy flats you refer to can be over 500k! My home is in Gib. Fantastic place to be based in my opinion. (Although yes some parts of it are a bit crappy)Bing o said:
Interesting thread this has turned into. I am a non-resident, P80 filled in and last income tax paid on my bonus last month. I may rack up 30 days in the UK through work and family holidays, but have currently have a flat in my name in the Uk, which due to family circumstances I have leant to mother. Are the IR still going to come after me then? I currently have a growing sum tucked away in the IoM and am looking into QROPSing my UK company pensions.
I could cope with summer in the UK, but would have to spend winter either in Asia or South West USA tbh.
DonkeyApple said:
Even most expats cannot deal with staying in their location if they are not working.
The simple fact is that for 99.9% of Britons it is better to graft it out in the UK, take it in the arse from the tax man and enjoy your life. 99.9% of those people don't realise this. Some even go so far as to sell up and then 2 years later wake up one morning in some sunny sthole and realise they've ruined their life.
Ignoring your comments about the Far East...retirement planning is something we were discussing at the weekend. The plan is to use the favourable tax here to save up to be able to afford a nice getaway somewhere later - is it difficult to retire to another country that you don't have any ties to (ie never worked in)? The simple fact is that for 99.9% of Britons it is better to graft it out in the UK, take it in the arse from the tax man and enjoy your life. 99.9% of those people don't realise this. Some even go so far as to sell up and then 2 years later wake up one morning in some sunny s
thole and realise they've ruined their life.I could cope with summer in the UK, but would have to spend winter either in Asia or South West USA tbh.
I'm a huge fan of the US, but couldn't live there. I will still retain a 6 month base in London, but I certainly do not want to stay in London for more than 6 months of the year.
An interesting product in the US is a storage facility which I looked at a couple of years ago but can't recall the names of the companies. Basically, they would store all your furniture and belongings but within 72 hours would have them delivered to any property and unpacked and set up in the home in an exact manner pre-determined by yourself. What this meant was that instead of buying a property you simply rented one for the period required and when you turned up it would be fully furnished with your belongings and laid out exactly as you wanted.
You can do the same in South Africa as well. It's extremely useful and allows you to move around and live for blocks of time in different parts of the US.
What I don't understand is why HMRC don't do the following:
1) Make the rules for residency/non-residency black & white, so everyone can understand if it's a yes or no to the their status. There'll be some winners and some losers in this, just like every set of regulations.
2) Each year, HMRC looks at the status of the individual and signs off their status - no going back on the decision years later.
Suddenly saying to someone, oh hang on for the last 25 years there's been an issue is nonsense. If HMRC do their checks each year (or maybe every 2 years) it makes much more sense for everyone involved. After long periods of time, people might not have the means to pay back crazy amounts of money they innocently thought was theirs (no doubt with interest also).
1) Make the rules for residency/non-residency black & white, so everyone can understand if it's a yes or no to the their status. There'll be some winners and some losers in this, just like every set of regulations.
2) Each year, HMRC looks at the status of the individual and signs off their status - no going back on the decision years later.
Suddenly saying to someone, oh hang on for the last 25 years there's been an issue is nonsense. If HMRC do their checks each year (or maybe every 2 years) it makes much more sense for everyone involved. After long periods of time, people might not have the means to pay back crazy amounts of money they innocently thought was theirs (no doubt with interest also).
Silver993tt said:
What I don't understand is why HMRC don't do the following:
1) Make the rules for residency/non-residency black & white, so everyone can understand if it's a yes or no to the their status. There'll be some winners and some losers in this, just like every set of regulations.
2) Each year, HMRC looks at the status of the individual and signs off their status - no going back on the decision years later.
Suddenly saying to someone, oh hang on for the last 25 years there's been an issue is nonsense. If HMRC do their checks each year (or maybe every 2 years) it makes much more sense for everyone involved. After long periods of time, people might not have the means to pay back crazy amounts of money they innocently thought was theirs (no doubt with interest also).
My initial guess is that by keeping it obscure and risk laden you retain far more people and thus, tax?1) Make the rules for residency/non-residency black & white, so everyone can understand if it's a yes or no to the their status. There'll be some winners and some losers in this, just like every set of regulations.
2) Each year, HMRC looks at the status of the individual and signs off their status - no going back on the decision years later.
Suddenly saying to someone, oh hang on for the last 25 years there's been an issue is nonsense. If HMRC do their checks each year (or maybe every 2 years) it makes much more sense for everyone involved. After long periods of time, people might not have the means to pay back crazy amounts of money they innocently thought was theirs (no doubt with interest also).
DonkeyApple said:
My initial guess is that by keeping it obscure and risk laden you retain far more people and thus, tax?
Surely the opposite is also true, HMRC don't check every individual, so those also inncocently trying to play by the rules (who are actually making a mistake somewhere along the line unintentionally) aren't paying the tax that maybe they should be paying.There isn't really any excuse for finally making it very clear. The real problem with all this as I mentioned, is the retrospective aspect which simply allows HMRC to shed their responsibilities and then suddenly impose their mistake for not checking an individuals status in good time.
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