Weird cheque fraud issue
Discussion
We've got an odd thing going on. Someone keeps paying cheques into our business bank account, in random amounts but roughly £1600 a time. The cheques then bounce, or are stopped because they've been reported stolen. We get charged an unpaid item fee, which we then get the bank to credit back. The cheques are drawn on different business bank accounts. We have never heard of nor had contact with these businesses, nor do we recognise the names of the signatories, nor do the amounts match any outstanding invoices of ours. We've seen copies of the cheques and the payee name is very clearly our company name (which is relatively unusual). The cheques are paid in over the counter at different branches of the same bank with whom we bank (but not our branch). We don't know whether they are completing the sort code and account number on a paying-in slip or having the bank look us up by name (in fact, I don't even know if you can do that - I haven't tried to pay in a cheque in years and all of our actual customers pay by BACS).
WTF is going on? I can't see the percentage in it for the (presumed) criminals. Either the cheque bounces, in which case the only effect is a short term (and tiny) cost to us, or it clears (although that's not happened yet) in which case we have the money, not them - and would then return it to the originating business, not to them.
We've not had any emails or other communications of the 419-style "we've paid the wrong account, oops, please send it on to a/c xxx" or at least nothing of that sort has made it through our spam filter. And we're a cyber-security, data protection and regulatory compliance advisory firm, so (assuming they got our name from the internet) presumably not the most intelligent choice of target for that sort of scam.
Anybody got a clue? Our bank manager is as puzzled as we are.
WTF is going on? I can't see the percentage in it for the (presumed) criminals. Either the cheque bounces, in which case the only effect is a short term (and tiny) cost to us, or it clears (although that's not happened yet) in which case we have the money, not them - and would then return it to the originating business, not to them.
We've not had any emails or other communications of the 419-style "we've paid the wrong account, oops, please send it on to a/c xxx" or at least nothing of that sort has made it through our spam filter. And we're a cyber-security, data protection and regulatory compliance advisory firm, so (assuming they got our name from the internet) presumably not the most intelligent choice of target for that sort of scam.
Anybody got a clue? Our bank manager is as puzzled as we are.
Lets think about this from a criminal's point of view. They are stealing cheques and need to see if they will be paid in. They know from experience that most will be blocked. Plus they would get charged for each bounced cheque. So they need to pay it into another company's account.
You mention you haven't received a request from anyone to be repaid, but I would presume that is because the cheques haven't yet cleared into your account.
At the point they do clear, I would be pretty sure you will be contacted by the criminal asking for the money to be "re-paid" back into their account.
I would expect the criminal attempting to do this hasn't picked your company at random. If you were a criminal, you would want to pick a trustworthy company that has a certain size (but also isn't too big). Its possible the person paying in the cheques might have an association with one of your employees or one of your suppliers.
Using an Occam's razor type logic is probably the most useful way of resolving what is going on.
964Cup said:
What you say makes sense, except that this has been going on for over a month. Each cheque deposited has bounced pretty well immediately, but I don't see how the criminal would know that, so I'd expect to have heard from them by now asking for "their" money back.
unfortunately criminals have friends/associates that work in all kinds of organisationsjas xjr said:
964Cup said:
What you say makes sense, except that this has been going on for over a month. Each cheque deposited has bounced pretty well immediately, but I don't see how the criminal would know that, so I'd expect to have heard from them by now asking for "their" money back.
unfortunately criminals have friends/associates that work in all kinds of organisationsMuch more likely is that they have a way of knowing whether or not the cheque has cleared into your account, hence why they haven't asked for any money.
How many people might have access to your company's bank account to know whether the cheque had cleared or not?
Internally, only I have access to the on-line banking and only I see the statements. No-one else internally even knows that this is happening. Other than that, it's visible to our bankers, of course, but surely if they had access from within the bank, they wouldn't need to use our account for testing cheques?
I think the issuing bank does the ultimate check WRT clearing the cheque.
Are the cheques being paid in all from the same bank or a variety of banks as perhaps they are trying to find a bank with a gap in their clearing system.
Looking online a new image based cheque clearing system has recently been introduced, so maybe they are trying to exploit any holes that has.
I'm not sure how many days it is taking for the cheques to bounce, but maybe they are trying to lull you into thinking that the bank's security system will catch this quickly. So if it takes 2 days to flag up ATM (same bank so quicker checks?) they could then pay in from a completely different bank. This cheque would take longer to be checked by the issuing branch, and in that time they could phone up and try and convince you that any issues would have been detected already.
Alternatively perhaps they are somehow trying to get your account flagged up as a problem account and cause you disruption. Any disgruntled ex-employees?
Interesting one...
Are the cheques being paid in all from the same bank or a variety of banks as perhaps they are trying to find a bank with a gap in their clearing system.
Looking online a new image based cheque clearing system has recently been introduced, so maybe they are trying to exploit any holes that has.
I'm not sure how many days it is taking for the cheques to bounce, but maybe they are trying to lull you into thinking that the bank's security system will catch this quickly. So if it takes 2 days to flag up ATM (same bank so quicker checks?) they could then pay in from a completely different bank. This cheque would take longer to be checked by the issuing branch, and in that time they could phone up and try and convince you that any issues would have been detected already.
Alternatively perhaps they are somehow trying to get your account flagged up as a problem account and cause you disruption. Any disgruntled ex-employees?
Interesting one...
Edited by nw942 on Saturday 27th January 14:05
The only way any cheque frauds like this can work is by taking advantage of early clearing that then gets bounced in a later process, with someone doing something around the 'cleared' funds in the interim. (Obviously there are other types around misrepresentation or forgery/alteration but those aren't relevant here)
The scan based checks (as opposed to the old physical ones) change some things but make no odds in this case.
If you've seen the copies of the cheques are they in different writing (assuming not printed) as opposed to being all different like the source accounts apparently are?
If no one is trying to get goods or services and your account is secure then the only obvious things are either someone (competition/employee/ex-employee) is trying to do some reputation damage or maybe someone is trying some fraud but has the wrong account as their target?
Either way it just sounds odd as it seems a lot of effort for something that doesn't apparently fit a workable fraud.
The scan based checks (as opposed to the old physical ones) change some things but make no odds in this case.
If you've seen the copies of the cheques are they in different writing (assuming not printed) as opposed to being all different like the source accounts apparently are?
If no one is trying to get goods or services and your account is secure then the only obvious things are either someone (competition/employee/ex-employee) is trying to do some reputation damage or maybe someone is trying some fraud but has the wrong account as their target?
Either way it just sounds odd as it seems a lot of effort for something that doesn't apparently fit a workable fraud.
Writing appears to be the same. Signatures and signatories are different. I also suspect there's an issue of mistaken identity going on. Very unlikely to be a disgruntled employee - this is a smallish start-up; I have a much larger business that would make a much more obvious target and actually has former employees (hopefully not disgruntled ones!), but that's not been affected at all, and I can't see any reason why anyone with knowledge would pick on the new one for preference.
It's very odd. The cheques are bouncing within a day, so they don't even have much of an uncleared funds window to work with.
Waiting to hear more from the bank and (don't laugh) Action Fraud.
It's very odd. The cheques are bouncing within a day, so they don't even have much of an uncleared funds window to work with.
Waiting to hear more from the bank and (don't laugh) Action Fraud.
jas xjr said:
964Cup said:
What you say makes sense, except that this has been going on for over a month. Each cheque deposited has bounced pretty well immediately, but I don't see how the criminal would know that, so I'd expect to have heard from them by now asking for "their" money back.
unfortunately criminals have friends/associates that work in all kinds of organisationsGassing Station | Finance | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff