MBNA / American express - can they do this ?
Discussion
Long story short:
Called out of the blue by the Virgin Atlantic flying club and spoke to the Mrs."Are you aware you've got some air miles, can we do anything to help you, are you aware the miles will expire, take out one of our Vrigin Atlantic MBNA credit cards and the points stay there for ever and you can add to them".
Strangley enough we had been talking about an air miles credit card so she listens to the sell. You go via the Virgin site to do your shopping and earn extra miles, everything you spend earns miles, etc, etc. Because of our spending profile it made sense to pay £115 for their black card which earnt more miles. The clincher was the chap's comment that we hadn't got anything to loose because there was a cooling off period if we didn't think it was right for us.
Accepted there and then, email came through to confirm acceptance, click here to a web page where you clicked yes I accept the terms and 2 cards come through the post. Incidentally when I tried to access that "terms and conditions" website again I can't get through, it says you've already accepted the terms.
I was a bit surprised to see the cards were in fact American Express, no mention at all had been made of American Express up to that point. Anyway, the missus trys to do the Ocado shop via the Virgin site and can't get her Ocado account / website up so that's no good and we get loads of retailers who won't accept American Express, as a retailer myself I know why - because they charge twice the fees and take longer to pay you. Long and short of it is that after a couple of weeks we decide it isn't working, there's no point in having an air miles card that you can't put all your spending through.
Call MBNA to cancel, we haven't had our first statement through yet so they give us a settlement figure for the 11 purchases we have managed to make (actually one is supposed to be being refunded but not showing as such on the account yet). No problem except they want to keep their £115 on the grounds that we've made a purchase.
I explain that until we start using the card we don't know retailers don't accept the MBNA credit card and no mention has been made anywhere in the tele-sales patter that it's an American Express card. Tough, it was clearly laid out in the Ts & Cs which you "signed". As far as we are aware no physical paperwork ever came through, just this webpage which is a one time only access.
Anyway ended up speaking directly with Diarmuid Morgan the head of the department who says tough mate, we're keeping our £115 so chalk it down to experience and make sure you have a good read of the small print next time. His argument was that they had already given us air miles (which don't show on our Virgin Flying Club account), so that's your lot. Now I hate people who come straight onto the internet and moan so I had a long chat and cleared it with him for me to discuss the matter in public and he said yes, he was happy to stand by his descision.
so my question is this. Have MBNA broken the law? Are they allowed to hide the fact their card is an American Express credit card? Obviously now knowing how hard it is to use an American Express credit card I can see why they would keep it quiet. Can they make false / spurious claims in the Tele-sale pitch and still keep the £115?
One of the main problems is that if not all retailers accept American Express / MBNA then it kicks into touch the calculations which made it worthwhile paying the £115 in the first place. You need to spend a certain amount a year for the £115 to pay it's self off.
I have to say I'm left feeling very bitter towards both MBNA and the Virgin Atlantic flying club. I'm not saying we won't fly with them again, clearly if they are cheaper than BA club then we'll use them but it all seems a bit murky and I would have though against the rules of tele selling for credit cards.
There was no balance transfer etc, we use cards merely for convinience paying them off each month.
Hopefully someone better versed in these matters can advise. Ultimately for the sake of £115 no one is going to go hungry but it does seem wrong.
Thanks in advance.
Henry
Called out of the blue by the Virgin Atlantic flying club and spoke to the Mrs."Are you aware you've got some air miles, can we do anything to help you, are you aware the miles will expire, take out one of our Vrigin Atlantic MBNA credit cards and the points stay there for ever and you can add to them".
Strangley enough we had been talking about an air miles credit card so she listens to the sell. You go via the Virgin site to do your shopping and earn extra miles, everything you spend earns miles, etc, etc. Because of our spending profile it made sense to pay £115 for their black card which earnt more miles. The clincher was the chap's comment that we hadn't got anything to loose because there was a cooling off period if we didn't think it was right for us.
Accepted there and then, email came through to confirm acceptance, click here to a web page where you clicked yes I accept the terms and 2 cards come through the post. Incidentally when I tried to access that "terms and conditions" website again I can't get through, it says you've already accepted the terms.
I was a bit surprised to see the cards were in fact American Express, no mention at all had been made of American Express up to that point. Anyway, the missus trys to do the Ocado shop via the Virgin site and can't get her Ocado account / website up so that's no good and we get loads of retailers who won't accept American Express, as a retailer myself I know why - because they charge twice the fees and take longer to pay you. Long and short of it is that after a couple of weeks we decide it isn't working, there's no point in having an air miles card that you can't put all your spending through.
Call MBNA to cancel, we haven't had our first statement through yet so they give us a settlement figure for the 11 purchases we have managed to make (actually one is supposed to be being refunded but not showing as such on the account yet). No problem except they want to keep their £115 on the grounds that we've made a purchase.
I explain that until we start using the card we don't know retailers don't accept the MBNA credit card and no mention has been made anywhere in the tele-sales patter that it's an American Express card. Tough, it was clearly laid out in the Ts & Cs which you "signed". As far as we are aware no physical paperwork ever came through, just this webpage which is a one time only access.
Anyway ended up speaking directly with Diarmuid Morgan the head of the department who says tough mate, we're keeping our £115 so chalk it down to experience and make sure you have a good read of the small print next time. His argument was that they had already given us air miles (which don't show on our Virgin Flying Club account), so that's your lot. Now I hate people who come straight onto the internet and moan so I had a long chat and cleared it with him for me to discuss the matter in public and he said yes, he was happy to stand by his descision.
so my question is this. Have MBNA broken the law? Are they allowed to hide the fact their card is an American Express credit card? Obviously now knowing how hard it is to use an American Express credit card I can see why they would keep it quiet. Can they make false / spurious claims in the Tele-sale pitch and still keep the £115?
One of the main problems is that if not all retailers accept American Express / MBNA then it kicks into touch the calculations which made it worthwhile paying the £115 in the first place. You need to spend a certain amount a year for the £115 to pay it's self off.
I have to say I'm left feeling very bitter towards both MBNA and the Virgin Atlantic flying club. I'm not saying we won't fly with them again, clearly if they are cheaper than BA club then we'll use them but it all seems a bit murky and I would have though against the rules of tele selling for credit cards.
There was no balance transfer etc, we use cards merely for convinience paying them off each month.
Hopefully someone better versed in these matters can advise. Ultimately for the sake of £115 no one is going to go hungry but it does seem wrong.
Thanks in advance.
Henry
This is the problem, I can't access the page to see what it did or didn't say. It seems that MBNA are quite keen to put one way valves everywhere. Once you put the phone down on the tele-sales caller the number they leave you with "If you have any other questions" is only for existing customers when you hit the auto receptionist (press 1 for this, 2 for that and so on).
The same seems true with their Terms and conditions page, once you click yes it vanishes for ever. The fact it was an American Express card in it's self isn't an issue. The problem is that apparently somewhere in MBNA's terms which we supposedly signed it says that as soon as you use the card you've kissed goodbye to your £115. Obviously there is some delay in going to the page on the website and receiving your cards. All we know is the tele-sales guy said you've got nothing to lose because there is a cooling off period.
I'm left with the feeling you should never ever take up a telephone based offer. I thought MBNA were a known brand and so assumed all would be well. It's not as though they are a back street outfit. Also the fact it came through the Virgin Atlantic flying club meant they wouldn't hook up with someone trying to pull the wool over your eyes and puts you off guard.
The issue is the fact that so many places don't take American Express credit cards. MBNA & Virgin Atlantic must know this, hence not mentioning American Express in the tele-sales patter. You only find out when you go to try using the card at which point, so it would seem, you are stuffed. You've just done £115.
Henry
The same seems true with their Terms and conditions page, once you click yes it vanishes for ever. The fact it was an American Express card in it's self isn't an issue. The problem is that apparently somewhere in MBNA's terms which we supposedly signed it says that as soon as you use the card you've kissed goodbye to your £115. Obviously there is some delay in going to the page on the website and receiving your cards. All we know is the tele-sales guy said you've got nothing to lose because there is a cooling off period.
I'm left with the feeling you should never ever take up a telephone based offer. I thought MBNA were a known brand and so assumed all would be well. It's not as though they are a back street outfit. Also the fact it came through the Virgin Atlantic flying club meant they wouldn't hook up with someone trying to pull the wool over your eyes and puts you off guard.
The issue is the fact that so many places don't take American Express credit cards. MBNA & Virgin Atlantic must know this, hence not mentioning American Express in the tele-sales patter. You only find out when you go to try using the card at which point, so it would seem, you are stuffed. You've just done £115.
Henry
I shouldn't have to apply for a second MBNA credit card and pay another £115 just to see the terms and conditions page of my contract surely?
As you say it has really got to me. I said to Diarmuid Morgan at MBNA what I was planning to do in terms of publicising my unhappiness and made really sure he understood the reasons for my dissatisfaction, it wasn't just a change of heart. In fact the £115 credit card fee is a positive bargain when compared to another of our cards! I did say that I didn't think it was MBNA's finest move in keeping the £115. Given I lead such a boring life it's all I'll be talking about for the next 6 months
Henry
As you say it has really got to me. I said to Diarmuid Morgan at MBNA what I was planning to do in terms of publicising my unhappiness and made really sure he understood the reasons for my dissatisfaction, it wasn't just a change of heart. In fact the £115 credit card fee is a positive bargain when compared to another of our cards! I did say that I didn't think it was MBNA's finest move in keeping the £115. Given I lead such a boring life it's all I'll be talking about for the next 6 months
Henry
sanf said:
As mentioned MBNA will have an official complaints process. Follow that, and request a copy of the terms & conditions. Accepting the T&C's is the same as signing them when applying via the web.
If the T&C's clearly state the £115 issue then no it is not illegal, and did you read them?? Too many people just accept and click through. In fairness to them it's not hard to see it's an Amex card, type it into google and you can't miss it!!
This seems more like a bad customer experience than anything legally wrong. But Virgin are known for their excellent customer service so maybe go direct to them and explain how badly you feel you've been treated.
The problem is I will never know exactly what was on that web page because once you tick yes you can't go back. They could send me any bit of paper they like.If the T&C's clearly state the £115 issue then no it is not illegal, and did you read them?? Too many people just accept and click through. In fairness to them it's not hard to see it's an Amex card, type it into google and you can't miss it!!
This seems more like a bad customer experience than anything legally wrong. But Virgin are known for their excellent customer service so maybe go direct to them and explain how badly you feel you've been treated.
What I think this does do is highlight the difference between making an informed choice whilst browsing on the internet or being conned into something by a bloke you've never spoken to before or since who called you out of the blue on the telephone. I don't really fancy wasting my time trying to speak with managers of MBNA and / or Virgin Atlantic. I made my case to MBNA at a senior level and it was rejected.
What I am doing is taking steps to ensure others don't suffer as I have done.
Henry
Clicking the link just says your credit card application is unavailable.
Re getting terms with the cards we (the missus) is normally quite good with paperwork and we can find info relation to insurance that came with the card but nothing else. I'm not saying we didn't get some info but we can't find it anywhere. Similarly any terms and conditions on an MBNA website are all good but I want to know what was on the page I can no longer access?
The issue I have is that even if it did say somewhere within a terms and conditions page that the second you use your card you're into MBNA for £115 how would I know that so many companies won't take American Express / the Virgin Atlantic flying club card until I go to use the card? The whole thing about a rewards based credit card is that you want to use it for all your spending so as to get as many air miles as possible.
The only reason we took out the card was to get air miles, no other reason. Iit was offered through the Virgin Atlantic Flying club for that very purpose. I have never had someone say to me they don't take Visa or MasterCard.
Henry
Re getting terms with the cards we (the missus) is normally quite good with paperwork and we can find info relation to insurance that came with the card but nothing else. I'm not saying we didn't get some info but we can't find it anywhere. Similarly any terms and conditions on an MBNA website are all good but I want to know what was on the page I can no longer access?
The issue I have is that even if it did say somewhere within a terms and conditions page that the second you use your card you're into MBNA for £115 how would I know that so many companies won't take American Express / the Virgin Atlantic flying club card until I go to use the card? The whole thing about a rewards based credit card is that you want to use it for all your spending so as to get as many air miles as possible.
The only reason we took out the card was to get air miles, no other reason. Iit was offered through the Virgin Atlantic Flying club for that very purpose. I have never had someone say to me they don't take Visa or MasterCard.
Henry
Thanks for everyone's replies.
No, I'm not going to withhold payment for the £115, I don't think that is the right thing to do. I don't want to end up with some marker on a website somewhere that takes months of letter writing to remove. If MBNA need the £115 to survive then at this point I will pay it to them. Whether they end up keeping it, who knows?
So others don't suffer the same plight we have I have had a small website built in response to my problems with MBNA and the Virgin flying club and will be having some SEO work done to promote it. Not the most exciting of websites but hopefully it does the job. It probably comes across as being a bit childish to go to the trouble of having the website built but I'm genuinely keen for others to avoid our mistakes. When the MBNA sales team mentioned a cooling off period in the sales pitch it really put my wife off guard and I know others will be tricked in the same way. I'm happy that I gave fair warning to MBNA's Diarmuid Morgan that this was going to happen so they only have themselves to blame. I was surprised he stuck to his guns at that point but each to their own.
In the past I've found little websites like that useful when researching a subject. I'm happy I've approached things from a level headed perspective and tried to be fair and unemotional. I welcome any comments you may have as to it's content.
In response to Jon (bigandclever): The fact we weren't told the card was going to be an American Express card was more of a surprise than anything. As you quite rightly say we knew it was an American Express card once it arrived because it says so quite clearly on the bit of plastic. What we weren't aware of were the implications of this. The promised "cooling off period" was the whole reason my wife agreed to the card. My issue is the fact that hidden somewhere in the terms and conditions I can no longer access was the fact that as soon as you used the card the cooling off period finished. We only found out that so many people refuse to take American Express when we went to use it. So we were in a chicken and egg situation which seems unfair. Had we just changed our minds and decided that actually we didn't want it any more then so be it. But we didn't, we had to cancel it because it wasn't going to do the job we needed it to, ie put all our credit card spending through it to maximise air miles rewards.
I have decided to take the advice give on here and lodge a formal complaint with the FSA / Financial Ombudsman service. It seems the best way to make MBNA face up to their questionable selling techniques.
I think with the Virgin Flying club it's more of a disappointment than anything else. We've always enjoyed flying Upper Class with them. As with all services there have been a few little niggles but we have always seen them as a fun way to travel. The Heathrow lounge is cool, the in flight service good fun and so we had always felt the love. I think that love has gone now and it's a shame, they just picked the wrong company to partner them, a company who don't share their customer focus. either way the result is it was a Virgin Flying club credit card which has caused all the problems and so that will be the bit which sticks in our minds.
I'll see how we get on with the FSA. Incidentally am I right in thinking the Financial Ombudsman Service is part of the FSA ?
Keep smiling
Henry
No, I'm not going to withhold payment for the £115, I don't think that is the right thing to do. I don't want to end up with some marker on a website somewhere that takes months of letter writing to remove. If MBNA need the £115 to survive then at this point I will pay it to them. Whether they end up keeping it, who knows?
So others don't suffer the same plight we have I have had a small website built in response to my problems with MBNA and the Virgin flying club and will be having some SEO work done to promote it. Not the most exciting of websites but hopefully it does the job. It probably comes across as being a bit childish to go to the trouble of having the website built but I'm genuinely keen for others to avoid our mistakes. When the MBNA sales team mentioned a cooling off period in the sales pitch it really put my wife off guard and I know others will be tricked in the same way. I'm happy that I gave fair warning to MBNA's Diarmuid Morgan that this was going to happen so they only have themselves to blame. I was surprised he stuck to his guns at that point but each to their own.
In the past I've found little websites like that useful when researching a subject. I'm happy I've approached things from a level headed perspective and tried to be fair and unemotional. I welcome any comments you may have as to it's content.
In response to Jon (bigandclever): The fact we weren't told the card was going to be an American Express card was more of a surprise than anything. As you quite rightly say we knew it was an American Express card once it arrived because it says so quite clearly on the bit of plastic. What we weren't aware of were the implications of this. The promised "cooling off period" was the whole reason my wife agreed to the card. My issue is the fact that hidden somewhere in the terms and conditions I can no longer access was the fact that as soon as you used the card the cooling off period finished. We only found out that so many people refuse to take American Express when we went to use it. So we were in a chicken and egg situation which seems unfair. Had we just changed our minds and decided that actually we didn't want it any more then so be it. But we didn't, we had to cancel it because it wasn't going to do the job we needed it to, ie put all our credit card spending through it to maximise air miles rewards.
I have decided to take the advice give on here and lodge a formal complaint with the FSA / Financial Ombudsman service. It seems the best way to make MBNA face up to their questionable selling techniques.
I think with the Virgin Flying club it's more of a disappointment than anything else. We've always enjoyed flying Upper Class with them. As with all services there have been a few little niggles but we have always seen them as a fun way to travel. The Heathrow lounge is cool, the in flight service good fun and so we had always felt the love. I think that love has gone now and it's a shame, they just picked the wrong company to partner them, a company who don't share their customer focus. either way the result is it was a Virgin Flying club credit card which has caused all the problems and so that will be the bit which sticks in our minds.
I'll see how we get on with the FSA. Incidentally am I right in thinking the Financial Ombudsman Service is part of the FSA ?
Keep smiling
Henry
bigandclever said:
It's not a 'childish' thing to complain, but I (for one, anyway!) maintain you're in the wrong.
Anyway, maybe this will help, maybe it won't!. With the black card, if you spend £7.5k in a year, you get a free companion flight that year. So, you'd get a BOGOF on your regular first class flight (has to be J class). And let's say you do spend £7.5k... that gives you the 6000 miles (for joining) plus 15000 miles (for spending). You 'only' need 29000 miles in total for a return to New York.
I know it seems I'm banging the VA/Amex drum, but all my grocery shopping, fuel, insurance, white goods, my train season ticket, etc. can be paid for on Amex. It does fall over, however, if I want to use it at smaller retailers.
They should employ you to speak to unhappy customers Jon!Anyway, maybe this will help, maybe it won't!. With the black card, if you spend £7.5k in a year, you get a free companion flight that year. So, you'd get a BOGOF on your regular first class flight (has to be J class). And let's say you do spend £7.5k... that gives you the 6000 miles (for joining) plus 15000 miles (for spending). You 'only' need 29000 miles in total for a return to New York.
I know it seems I'm banging the VA/Amex drum, but all my grocery shopping, fuel, insurance, white goods, my train season ticket, etc. can be paid for on Amex. It does fall over, however, if I want to use it at smaller retailers.
It surprised me that you said there was no need to go through the Virgin site to get the bonus points when shopping at Ocado. I'm not disagreeing with you but if that is the case then why would the telesales guy tell my wife to shop via the Virgin site? I wasn't aware that you only needed to spend £7,500 to get a free companion flight. The virgin website says it's 60,000 points. By a J class flight I presume you mean a flight off the Virgin site, all bit it at a discount from "list". Around £1,000 for a return to NY, £1,800 to Miami.
My Virgin flying club website says I need 90,000 points to get to NY. 100,000 for Miami.
My issue is that all these figures are achievable but only if I can put all our spending through the card and that isn't going to happen based on our brief experience. There is no point in paying the money to MBNA and trying to use the card if we're going to fall short. It will have been a waste of time. Of course MBNA / American Express still get their cut from the retailer commission.
Sorry if I come across as being a snob for not flying Economy class with my points calculations but we work bloody hard and don't take that many flights. They are for holidays so a decent flight starts things off on the right foot and rounds things off nicely.
I still think we have played the game and been decent about the whole thing. We took the tele sales guy at his word, and seem to have been bolted up a bit on this one. Had I known then what I know now we would have thanked the bloke onto phone and called it a day.
I think you need to make a decision after some research on the Internet not after some spiel from a bloke on the phone even if he is supposed to be governed by a strict set of rules and guidelines. We live and learn!
Henry
My comment was intended as a compliment
Right then, I've been on the Virgin site and you are indeed correct A.P. are offering 9 miles per £ of fun. But why do some companies show 1 mile per £? Surely you get that anyway or is that in additional 1 mile per point to the 2 miles per point you would enjoy anyway with the black card?
Does the companion voucher come as soon as you hit the £7,500 spend target? I assume the companion voucher you "buy" allows 2 people to fly for an air miles ticket plus a companion voucher rather than having to buy 2 air miles tickets.
The predicament I'm in is that I know our spend is high enough to get decent rewards providing the card is accepted. The next hurdle of course is actually being able to get hold of flights but I'll have to meet that one when it happens and I'm sure that issue is common to all the rewards schemes. I did wonder if it was easier to book economy flights and upgrade them to Upper rather than go all out to get Upper Class flights.
Based on your post I'm going to persevere with the card. Ultimately we've nothing to lose for the next year if they won't refund the £115. I've got one place where we spend around £25k a year which will take the Amex card so that gets us halfway there.
I still think MBNA needs to review their sales / notification of terms and conditions. That comment of "you've got nothing to lose because you get a cooling off period" is very misleading.
The Virgin Flying Club may well owe you a drink. Let's see how it goes. Thank you very much for taking the time to post.
Henry
Right then, I've been on the Virgin site and you are indeed correct A.P. are offering 9 miles per £ of fun. But why do some companies show 1 mile per £? Surely you get that anyway or is that in additional 1 mile per point to the 2 miles per point you would enjoy anyway with the black card?
Does the companion voucher come as soon as you hit the £7,500 spend target? I assume the companion voucher you "buy" allows 2 people to fly for an air miles ticket plus a companion voucher rather than having to buy 2 air miles tickets.
The predicament I'm in is that I know our spend is high enough to get decent rewards providing the card is accepted. The next hurdle of course is actually being able to get hold of flights but I'll have to meet that one when it happens and I'm sure that issue is common to all the rewards schemes. I did wonder if it was easier to book economy flights and upgrade them to Upper rather than go all out to get Upper Class flights.
Based on your post I'm going to persevere with the card. Ultimately we've nothing to lose for the next year if they won't refund the £115. I've got one place where we spend around £25k a year which will take the Amex card so that gets us halfway there.
I still think MBNA needs to review their sales / notification of terms and conditions. That comment of "you've got nothing to lose because you get a cooling off period" is very misleading.
The Virgin Flying Club may well owe you a drink. Let's see how it goes. Thank you very much for taking the time to post.
Henry
dodgyviper said:
I'll agree with you that too many places don't except Amex because of the charges - but these are almost always smaller outlets (B&Q excepted).
Now I am confused. I could have sworn that B&Q were listed as one of the people on the Virgin shopping cookie site. Something like 3 points per pound from memory !!Henry
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