PV Solar Power

[NugentS]

Guys,

I am looking at getting a PV Solar Installation to take advantage of the Gubermint Feed in Tariffs as that seems to make the concept financially viable.
My budget is 10K with 20% overspend allowed (aka 12K)
I will be getting four quotes

For comparison purposes I am looking at:
Rated Power of Installation (I don't really care how many panels are used - its only the total power that's generated that matters)
Warranty on Panels
Panel Degradation (mostly the same except one manufacturer)
Warranty on Inverter (I understand that these are almost certain to fail during the 25 year period)
Workmanship Warranty
Panel Quality (Subjective, Mono/Poly/Hybrid{expensive}, Manufacture location, owning company, panel efficiency etc)

Does anyone have any comments on the above? Any advice to offer? Tales of horror or delight?

Regards

Sean

[Thread also in Finance]

[zcacogp]

Sean,

Have a search on here - there are a few threads on Solar PV, and some PH-ers seem to feel strongly about it. However we did exactly what you are suggesting a month or so ago, with the same budget, and I am currently looking out of the window and feeling happy that the sun is shining ...

I did a fair amount of research and talked at some length with a friend who makes solar panels about what is and what isn't worth doing. There are a number of variables in any installation, but essentially you are employing workmen to do some work on your roof. How good the end result is will be a product of many things:

- How good the workmanship is (some installations are very very ugly, with armoured cables attached to the outside of the house and poorly-installed hardware inside and out.) This is much the same problem as with any work you have done on the house.

- How well-designed the solar installation is; whether the panels are optimally placed to stay in direct sunshine throughout the day. This will be partially dictated by the size and direction of your roof, but a well-designed installation will ensure that the panels are in the sunniest part possible (if part of a solar panel is in the shade it acts as a resistor, thus reducing the efficiency of the parts that are still in the sun).

- What types of panels you have purchased. An installer will usually be happy to fit any panels you choose, and should be able to advise you on this.

Finding a good installer is important, as this will determine whether you have a neat and tidy job or a very ugly one. And a good installer should be able to design a good installation, addressing the second concern above.

Panel type is a bit more interesting as different panels have different advantages and disadvantages. They all seem to have the same degradation curve (apart from Azur panels), but vary in price a bit. The advice I had was that the current market leaders are Sanyo with their HIT range of panels; they don't produce more peak power, but do produce much more power than other panels in lower light levels. These are the ones that we went with.

It seems that the SMA Sunny Boy inverters are the current market leaders and most people seem to be fitting them. The stories of them needing replacement in 5 years seem to be scaremongering, but they won't last 25 years, for sure. I think our inverter has a 10 year warranty, and I am budgeting for replacing it at after roughly this time.

Bear in mind that the extra cost of expensive panels over cheap ones will be small compared to the total cost of the project. Once you have factored in fixed costs (scaffolding, installers time, delivery etc etc etc) then an extra £500 for better panels is not much - particularly if it means your yield is 10% greater.

I have no affiliation, but if you are in the South East then I am more than happy to recommend my installer. PM if you want details.


Oli.

ETA: Here is a thread I started asking essentially the same question. It's on an electricians forum, where some solar installers seem to hang out. It makes interesting reading.

Edited by zcacogp on Monday 12th September 13:51

[Paul Drawmer]

read all about it here:

http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/board,7...

Look at the sticky subject at the top for costs comparisons.

[NugentS]

Hmm useful

Sean

[Skyedriver]

Excellent write up Oli
Anyone any experience of Kioto panels, a company is supposed to be calling next week with a quote

[bigburd]

Got a 3.6KWP system being installed in 2wks by

15 x Moserbaer Panels
Fronius inverter
£9500

check this facebook site
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Solar-PV-Project-at...


From my experience
Avoid PV Solar UK, Tescos and the national uPVC (get on the Solar band wagon)companies
Read the articles on www.which.co.uk about pressure sales
Only go with companies who are prepared to meet at times suitable to you (ie don’t take “we can only book am or pm appointments)
Get at least three quotes
DO NOT do the Rent a Roof (it is tied to your mortgage!!)


The most professional quotes I had were
JHS from nr Banbury **
SolarTec **
SolarPartners

• (but will only survey after initial quote if you are seriously interested)

My decision was between SolarTec and SolarPartners –

AVOID
PV Solar UK, they do not offer choices and their brochure is borderline illegal with hardsell wording
Sharp Panels seem to have a bad reputation for quality
People trying to sell Aurora One inverters (italian made – erm Alfa Romeo electrix) on lower start up voltage – the key to a good design is matching inverter to correct solar panels string

Best Value Panels
Hyundai
Suntech
MoserBaer

Best Invertors
Sunny Boy or Fronius


Most Efficient Panels
Sanyo but 2-3x more expensive


ALWAYS Pay at least some of the deposit on your credit card, if any part of the supply chain goes bust and you have an issue you can pursue the Credit Card company under Section 75 of Consumer Credit Act.


My quotes varied from £9500 to £14995

Edited by bigburd on Sunday 18th September 23:23

[bigburd]

The facebook page has a SunnyBoy and Hyundai Panels, my install will have Fronius and MoserBaer

What I am trying to say is that the designer must take into account the specs of the panels and match the invertor to maximise the KWP.

Have sent you a PM

[NugentS]

bigburd said:

Got a 3.6KWP system being installed in 2wks by

15 x Moserbaer Panels
Fronius inverter
£9500

check this facebook site
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Solar-PV-Project-at...


From my experience
Avoid PV Solar UK, Tescos and the national uPVC (get on the Solar band wagon)companies
Read the articles on www.which.co.uk about pressure sales
Only go with companies who are prepared to meet at times suitable to you (ie don’t take “we can only book am or pm appointments)
Get at least three quotes
DO NOT do the Rent a Roof (it is tied to your mortgage!!)


The most professional quotes I had were
JHS from nr Banbury **
SolarTec **
SolarPartners

• (but will only survey after initial quote if you are seriously interested)

My decision was between SolarTec and SolarPartners –

AVOID
PV Solar UK, they do not offer choices and their brochure is borderline illegal with hardsell wording
Sharp Panels seem to have a bad reputation for quality
People trying to sell Aurora One inverters (italian made – erm Alfa Romeo electrix) on lower start up voltage – the key to a good design is matching inverter to correct solar panels string

Best Value Panels
Hyundai
Suntech
MoserBaer

Best Invertors
Sunny Boy or Fronius


Most Efficient Panels
Sanyo but 2-3x more expensive


ALWAYS Pay at least some of the deposit on your credit card, if any part of the supply chain goes bust and you have an issue you can pursue the Credit Card company under Section 75 of Consumer Credit Act.


My quotes varied from £9500 to £14995

Edited by bigburd on Sunday 18th September 23:23

That is unbelievably cheap with a £/W value of 2.64 - cheapest I have managed so far is 3.09 (highest is 4.18)
Very marginally under average Watt/sqm (144.4913 vs average of 145.7267) compared to all the various panels I have been quoted (range is 140.0936 to 154.6040. The highest number BTW was a poly - which seems strange.)
Poly Panels not mono

Whereabouts are you and whose the supplier?

BTW the facebook site you reference has a sunnyboy installed not a Fronius so I don't understand the relevance to the proposed install

Regards

Sean

Incidently I also got a quote from PVSolar and are not currently on my list of possible supplier. I had a harder sell from Renewable Resources - the saleman must have been a doubleglazing salesman in a previous life/job

[Skyedriver]

Skyedriver said:

Excellent write up Oli
Anyone any experience of Kioto panels, a company is supposed to be calling next week with a quote

Decided to cancel the appointment
1) needed a loan to pay for it
2) only worthwhile if I were to stay in current property for at least 12 years
3) no info on Kioto panels

[Mr GrimNasty]

4) The Chinese peasants are all rioting about the pollution from the PV panel factories poisoning their crops/fish.
5) The FIT is scandalous.

etc.

[zcacogp]

Mr GrimNasty said:

4) The Chinese peasants are all rioting about the pollution from the PV panel factories poisoning their crops/fish.
5) The FIT is scandalous.

etc.

That's pretty mild for you on the subject of PV Solar, MrGN ...


Oli.

[Mr GrimNasty]

I've given up holding back the tide. People will only ever think of themselves, governments will only ever make policy based on corrupt advice and vested interest groups.

[NugentS]

The only reason I am doing this is the FIT - otherwise it would make no sense at all. Solar PV is a silly idea until we can get a decent efficiency - at which point it might make sense.

I have done my bit for the planet - no kids!!!

:-)

Sean

[zcacogp]

NugentS said:

The only reason I am doing this is the FIT - otherwise it would make no sense at all. Solar PV is a silly idea until we can get a decent efficiency - at which point it might make sense.

I have done my bit for the planet - no kids!!!

:-)

Sean

My sentiments precisely - in every respect!


Oli.

[Mr GrimNasty]

Had to laugh at Chris Huhne on the news, some publicity shots, swooning over some woman's brilliant new array of 10 PV panels on her roof, the very same panels that HE forces the electricity companies to buy electricity from at over 10 times the market price and pass the cost to their customers, trying to talk tough about stopping the very same energy companies from 'overcharging' their customers. The irony runs deep.

[Simpo Two]

NugentS said:

The only reason I am doing this is the FIT - otherwise it would make no sense at all.

FIT = Living on benefits.



(I'm with GrimNasty BTW)

[zcacogp]

Simpo two said:

(I'm with GrimNasty BTW)

Really? You surprise me S2 - I always think of you as rational and well-balanced. I agree that solar PV is far from cost-efficient when viewed without the FIT, but making the most of opportunities when they are presented (by which I mean making the most of the generous FITs) is surely common sense in anyone's book ...

Mr GN sounds almost jealous in some of his posts about solar PV - vituperative certainly. I can't imagine you being the same.


Oli.

[Mr GrimNasty]

zcacogp said:

Really? You surprise me S2 - I always think of you as rational and well-balanced. I agree that solar PV is far from cost-efficient when viewed without the FIT, but making the most of opportunities when they are presented (by which I mean making the most of the generous FITs) is surely common sense in anyone's book ...

Mr GN sounds almost jealous in some of his posts about solar PV - vituperative certainly. I can't imagine you being the same.


Oli.

What on earth is there to be jealous about? I feel strongly about it because it is so wrong, and people can't see past the £.
I can easily afford to cover my home in solar panels, I choose not to, it's called independent thinking, integrity, altruism.

If you are selfish and corruptible enough to wilfully take advantage of a financial incentive for something that is neither what it purports to be (i.e. green), that is economically and environmentally damaging, and that clearly disadvantages other poorer people, then don't direct your rancour at me just for pointing out some cold facts.

[Simpo Two]

zcacogp said:

Really? You surprise me S2 - I always think of you as rational and well-balanced. I agree that solar PV is far from cost-efficient when viewed without the FIT, but making the most of opportunities when they are presented (by which I mean making the most of the generous FITs) is surely common sense in anyone's book ...

Mr GN sounds almost jealous in some of his posts about solar PV - vituperative certainly. I can't imagine you being the same.


Oli.

Well that's very kind of you but step back and you'll see it's all a nonsensical eco-claptrap money-go-round where the people without PVs pay more to subsidise those who do, with the leccy companies sitting in the middle getting fatter and the politicians hugging themselves and purring. Financially I could just go and buy some of the damn things and claim the loot, but for possibly the first time ever my morals kicked in!

The money paid out in FITs has come from somewhere, it's not free.

[zcacogp]

S2,

It's an unfair system, for sure. There is no denying it. But not making the most of opportunities presented is foolishness, and I'm not (and didn't) let an opportunity like that pass by. I invest in the stock market, and make profits from other people's losses. I invest in solar panels, and make profits from other people's FITs. What's the difference? Eco-claptrap without a shadow of a doubt, and it's nice to be able to benefit from some of it for once. (I'll add that it's not total eco-nonsense; reducing our reliance on fossil fuels is something that we certainly need to do, and solar PV is a small step in this direction.)

(Maybe it's just that your moral sensitivities are more sensitive than mine! )

Mr GrimNasty said:

What on earth is there to be jealous about? I feel strongly about it because it is so wrong, and people can't see past the £.
I can easily afford to cover my home in solar panels, I choose not to, it's called independent thinking, integrity, altruism.

If you are selfish and corruptible enough to wilfully take advantage of a financial incentive for something that is neither what it purports to be (i.e. green), that is economically and environmentally damaging, and that clearly disadvantages other poorer people, then don't direct your rancour at me just for pointing out some cold facts.

Mr GN,

Putting this in the nicest possible way ... posts like that just reinforce my point. Vituperative for sure, and nearly as jealous as others. Making your own choices is a great thing (and long may it continue), but the tone of your argument when rubbishing other people's choices is what perplexes me.


Oli.