The end of the cosy open fire?

[Amateurish]

LotusMartin said:

I've used a mix of house coal and seasoned logs (mainly ash and beech) for years in my Morso multifuel stove. I find they compliment each other really well with predictable and controllable heat output.

Might not be the most efficient fuel mix but it's worked for us. As long as you don't overload it with coal it's fine.

Personally I'll be stocking up on a couple of tonne of house coal before the ban kicks in. Will keep us going for 10-15 years I estimate.

Fair enough, if it works for you. My multifuel stove specifically states that you shouldn't use house coal.

Plus anthracite is only about 10% more expensive and lasts longer.

[anonymous-user]

dhutch said:

MikeStroud said:

DonkeyApple said:

Coal has alternatives for the few who rely on it.

What are the alternatives? Will smokeless coal still be allowed?

Currently 'smokeless' fuel is not part of the ban only 'traditional household coal', with smokeless including some natural coals such as low-volatiles steam coal and anthracite, the latter being too short of volatiles to be easy to burn at low heat or on an open grate.

If the point of the open fire in question is heat, then the process smokeless fuels work, and they work ok/fine in suitable stoves and such things.

One of the main downsides however, is with the low volatile content, they don't make a nice flame, so its not anywhere near as nice to watch, is the primary purpose is to have something nice in the room to enjoy or counter low-mood, seasonal depression, etc.

Thank you for the above.

A few questions for anyone kind enough to reply...

I have tried smokeless coal this winter as someone gave me a bag and I was impressed how it lasted all evening and gave out more heat and created less ash. I was minded to order this the next time I had coal delivered.

Are there any downsides to smokeless fuel? Such as much hotter gases causing chimney issues (my chimneys are limestone and old mortar)?

Also why is smokeless fuel in a uniform "nugget" shape rather than as it was mined like coal is? Surely it is not pre-processed in some way thus making it actually not environmentally friendly at all?

Finally what approximately is the cost difference between house coal and smokeless coal if delivered by the traditional coalman (cwt!) as opposed to buying bags at the petrol station?

Many thanks.

[C Lee Farquar]

DonkeyApple said:

It’s the baffling state we’ve reached of having people who buy their sandwiches and drinks from shops trying to blame the people who have spent a lifetime making their own sandwiches and drinking from the tap for the excess consumption of goods.

That sums it up for me. As long as you're not having a subtle dig at my boiling tap.

[DonkeyApple]

MikeStroud said:

Thank you for the above.

A few questions for anyone kind enough to reply...

I have tried smokeless coal this winter as someone gave me a bag and I was impressed how it lasted all evening and gave out more heat and created less ash. I was minded to order this the next time I had coal delivered.

Are there any downsides to smokeless fuel? Such as much hotter gases causing chimney issues (my chimneys are limestone and old mortar)?

Also why is smokeless fuel in a uniform "nugget" shape rather than as it was mined like coal is? Surely it is not pre-processed in some way thus making it actually not environmentally friendly at all?

Finally what approximately is the cost difference between house coal and smokeless coal if delivered by the traditional coalman (cwt!) as opposed to buying bags at the petrol station?

Many thanks.

To make smokeless fuel you basically take a good quality anthracite and powder it, you then press it back together, hence the bricket shape.

The key is that it is denser so burns hotter which means it is purer and the extra heat burns off what would otherwise form into particulate matter.

You’re making anthracite even cleaner and more efficient just by making it denser.

[DonkeyApple]

C Lee Farquar said:

That sums it up for me. As long as you're not having a subtle dig at my boiling tap.

They are very useful if you can’t work out how to put a cup of water in a cheap kettle and turn it on.

Or if you haven’t got round to pouring the urine out of the kettle in the morning, according to the all time great PH post.

[dhutch]

MikeStroud said:

.. why is smokeless fuel in a uniform "nugget" shape rather than as it was mined like coal is? Surely it is not pre-processed in some way.....

Yes, its processed solid fuel.

I don't really know what they do to it, most sources as above state is comes from anthracite as a base.
Which make sense given anthracite is already low-volatile, and most smokeless fuels a harder to light and burn fairly hot, more like anthracite and than coal.

-Presumably crushing it to powder allows some chemical washing or the like to remove the sulfur content? I am not sure.

-Then obviously there is a binder to stick it back together again, which apparently is typically molasses or starch based?

-A lot of smokeless fuels are fairly high ash content, so presumably start off as fairly low grade anthracite with a lot of stone etc in it?


The hotter burning could shorten the life of the fire back and or stove lining, certainly if you open up the air and really allow a stove to get hot, but should be ok in a stove. Its less good on an open fire, especially if trying to burn a small/low fire in a larger grate as it can get too cold and just go out if it gets thin. Obviously you get less smoke, and hence soot, which is good. But also you tend to get a lot less flame, which is boring to watch. Its also not so good for steam raising if your burning in a steam engine.


Daniel

[80s-new-man]

It’s getting beyond a joke . Always gathered my own wood. No ones gonna stop me, less of all those sanctimonious, passive aggressive electric wastes of space.

[DonkeyApple]

80s-new-man said:

It’s getting beyond a joke . Always gathered my own wood. No ones gonna stop me, less of all those sanctimonious, passive aggressive electric wastes of space.

Yes but you’re actually quite thick as no one is stopping you from doing what you’re doing.

[Evanivitch]

bristolracer said:

Donkeyapple said:

At the same time we are obviously all buying more and more electricity to run the billions and billions of lumpsnof completely unnecessary electronic tat

Been saying this for years.
When I was young the only thing using electricity at night was the fridge.Everything else was off and unplugged.
I dread to think how much stuff people have running these days

Not really true though, is it?

A 32 inch CRT Sony Bravia consumed 190 Watt in use, a 55 inch OLED consumes about 150 watt.

By the 1990s a fridge was consuming 1100kWh a year, now we're down to about 300kWh on the best models.

So efficiency has clearly got much, much better. The issue is we've often traded away many of those gains, so our TVs are much bigger and so are our fridges. Some can be said of our cars too, as so many people now drive crossovers.

But combining LED lighting with our more efficient gadgets, and the clear answer is no we haven't increased our domestic electricity consumption.

[DonkeyApple]

True. It people seem to have about 8 TVs in every room now.

Stuff might be more energy efficient but we’re definitely packing our homes with more and more kit and I reckon very many households are running heating at higher levels than ever before. Although I seem to recall that usage peaked about 5 years ago and is currently falling.

Edited by DonkeyApple on Wednesday 26th February 22:51

[bristolracer]

Evanivitch said:

Not really true though, is it?

The trend is downward consumption, it peaked in 2007,but we are still quite a way off consumption figures for 1970.
But yes,efficient goods help,but we still have plenty of st plugged in that should be switched off.

[Saabfast]

Longer term new residential developments (10 years +) are being now designed as all electric, generally with ASHP, as the means of achieving the low carbon demands of future Building Regulations. Gas just does not do it. However, even with solar panels on them, high efficiency construction , heat recovery etc the demand for power for housing along with EV charging etc will tax the Grid and there will be problems of supply as it is unlikely that there will be sufficient clean generation and distribution expansion in time.

Many commercial (ie office) developments are already all electric with ASHP for heating and cooling and the trend is now to omit cooling and use natural ventilation and shading to limit heat gain.

Power getting cheaper/almost free? - I seem to remember we were told in the 1960/70's that gas would be almost free with the advent of north sea natural gas!!

Then again, being forced into a situation is generally the best way to force rapid development progress (similar to war driving rapid development). Presumably that is why government is driving these hard targets. The future is going to be change, not something I really like as I feel for my small fleet of cars, but it is going to happen. My question is, while we are doing our little bit for climate change, the UK are really a minor part of the problem compared to many others countries which are not doing much such as China, India, USA etc. I am not saying we should not do something but it is like a pee in the ocean.

[M3ax]

I’m burning all unused electrical devices . The flames are immaculate and entertaining. Once I’ve cleared them out I’ll get a few cubic metres of seasoned wood in and try that. Then I’ll burn the old apple tree I cut down 2 years ago just to please the wife. All good.

[jshell]

Saabfast said:

Longer term new residential developments (10 years +) are being now designed as all electric, generally with ASHP, as the means of achieving the low carbon demands of future Building Regulations. Gas just does not do it. However, even with solar panels on them, high efficiency construction , heat recovery etc the demand for power for housing along with EV charging etc will tax the Grid and there will be problems of supply as it is unlikely that there will be sufficient clean generation and distribution expansion in time.

Many commercial (ie office) developments are already all electric with ASHP for heating and cooling and the trend is now to omit cooling and use natural ventilation and shading to limit heat gain.

Power getting cheaper/almost free? - I seem to remember we were told in the 1960/70's that gas would be almost free with the advent of north sea natural gas!!

Then again, being forced into a situation is generally the best way to force rapid development progress (similar to war driving rapid development). Presumably that is why government is driving these hard targets. The future is going to be change, not something I really like as I feel for my small fleet of cars, but it is going to happen. My question is, while we are doing our little bit for climate change, the UK are really a minor part of the problem compared to many others countries which are not doing much such as China, India, USA etc. I am not saying we should not do something but it is like a pee in the ocean.

And what a clusterfk in the making that idea is!