Any private landlords out there?
Discussion
and the plot thickens. After I have mentioned about pursuing further actionthe tenants finally confesses that they've "spent the money by mistake". At first they were giving all excuses under the sun (bank error, agent error...). They tried to negotiate that they will pay 2 months worth of rent next month but I'm not falling for that.
Spoken to the agents and they say that they understand my pain but at this point there is nothing much they can do but continue chasing. I've asked about the clause in the contract where late rent payments could be charged interest. At first the agent is reluctant to comment but when I told her I want to speak to her manager directly she told me that she will personally raise this issue to the manager when he is back.
I do understand that you can't make payment if you have something serious that needs the funds but this is just purely taking the mick! I've also noticed their youngest son just bought a new car as well!!!
Anyway this is a 6 month contract so I can see why they are trying to worm their way out of payments. I will try to evict them if 2nd payment is missed but I have a guy feeling they will somehow get to stay in the house rent free for 5 months!!! (only paid the first payment as you cannot move in without) I kind of regret being so nice to them when moving in and arranged for plumbers to come hook up their washing machine now... Just goes to show in this world no matter how nice you are there's someone out there to take advantage of you!
Spoken to the agents and they say that they understand my pain but at this point there is nothing much they can do but continue chasing. I've asked about the clause in the contract where late rent payments could be charged interest. At first the agent is reluctant to comment but when I told her I want to speak to her manager directly she told me that she will personally raise this issue to the manager when he is back.
I do understand that you can't make payment if you have something serious that needs the funds but this is just purely taking the mick! I've also noticed their youngest son just bought a new car as well!!!
Anyway this is a 6 month contract so I can see why they are trying to worm their way out of payments. I will try to evict them if 2nd payment is missed but I have a guy feeling they will somehow get to stay in the house rent free for 5 months!!! (only paid the first payment as you cannot move in without) I kind of regret being so nice to them when moving in and arranged for plumbers to come hook up their washing machine now... Just goes to show in this world no matter how nice you are there's someone out there to take advantage of you!
spikeyhead said:
There are many plausible reasons, from having a goldfish when the tenancy doesn't allow pets to most of the house being used to grow drugs and plenty in between.
There's also the probability that that the refusee isn't mentally stable.
Tbh that crossed my mind but seems to drastic and they know where I live so I don't want my family to be in any harm (let's just say his 2 sons are a bit.... burly)There's also the probability that that the refusee isn't mentally stable.
I've been given a promise payment will be made by this Wednesday (can take up to 5 business days to clear as agent need to transfer from their account to mine) so let's hope something good comes out of this...
What kind of credit/background check was done this time I do wonder... the first tenants are very trouble free compared to this one!
Wings said:
You will no doubt already realize, that there is little difference between either saving monies and earning monies. The obvious example being that if you don’t pay the landlord one months rent of shall we say £600, then that can be the same as like going out and earning £600. And the longer the rent goes unpaid, then more the rent money belongs to the tenant’s savings, and the more difficult it becomes to recover the rental arrears.
The UK government drafts laws, legislations etc., and not letting agents or landlords, therefore whatever a tenancy agreement may say, if the same does not comply to legislation, then the courts will overrule the tenancy agreement.
As a landlord myself, and having had to deal many times with tenants falling into rental arrears, and also not having met your tenants “face to face”, I can like others only offer you general advice.
So my advice would be that since you have a letting agent acting for you, then you do not contact the tenant direct, but communicate with the tenant via your letting agent. Rental arrears must not be allowed to drag on, and once the second (2) month arrives with no rental payment, then your agents must serve upon the tenants a Section 8 Notice.
The Section 8 Notice usually accords the tenant/s 14 days Notice of settling the rental arrears before legal action is started to recover the arrears. Again once that time/period elapses, you must immediately start legal proceedings for both repossession of the rental property, and the recovery of the arrears and your legal costs etc.
Even after you have taken the above legal proceedings, if true to form, it may still take you a further 4 months to obtain possession of your property, and your tenant, he has increased his savings by £3600.
Welcome to the real world of being a private landlord.
Thanks. Very sound advice indeed. I am avoiding any contact with the tenants and letting the agents fully handle this as I do not wish to over complicate things. I've met them face-to-face and offered to help out when they were just moving in and on the face of things they do seem like nice bunch of people.The UK government drafts laws, legislations etc., and not letting agents or landlords, therefore whatever a tenancy agreement may say, if the same does not comply to legislation, then the courts will overrule the tenancy agreement.
As a landlord myself, and having had to deal many times with tenants falling into rental arrears, and also not having met your tenants “face to face”, I can like others only offer you general advice.
So my advice would be that since you have a letting agent acting for you, then you do not contact the tenant direct, but communicate with the tenant via your letting agent. Rental arrears must not be allowed to drag on, and once the second (2) month arrives with no rental payment, then your agents must serve upon the tenants a Section 8 Notice.
The Section 8 Notice usually accords the tenant/s 14 days Notice of settling the rental arrears before legal action is started to recover the arrears. Again once that time/period elapses, you must immediately start legal proceedings for both repossession of the rental property, and the recovery of the arrears and your legal costs etc.
Even after you have taken the above legal proceedings, if true to form, it may still take you a further 4 months to obtain possession of your property, and your tenant, he has increased his savings by £3600.
Welcome to the real world of being a private landlord.
My impression of things changes though after finding out about the blatant lies. I have a feeling the agents themselves are feeling a bit fed up.
Regarding the Section 8 - what if the next payment cycle arrives (30th this month according to contract) and the tenants only managed to pay 1 month's worth of rent (i.e not all arrears fully paid)? Everytime I try to ask a legal question with my agent she just avoids it and keeps on telling me "they are trying their best".
Personally I would try to avoid legal action but I know in this case head-in-sand approach could be costly. The only legal council I have is the company solicitor and I don't think I want to involve them in this as it's a private matter. Where (and when) should I seek legal advise? I take it it is not a responsibility of the letting agent at all to provide any legal assistance?
Sorry for all the question - stressful time at work as well as dealing with the rental problem...
Wings said:
A Section 8 Notice for rental arrears, should only be proceeded through, to the courts, when the tenant/s is/are two months or more in rental arrears.
Section 8 is just a Notice to the tenant/s, advising that unless the rental arrears are reduced within 14 days, then it is the agents/LL’s intentions to proceed with legal action, the same does not compel the agent/LL to proceed with legal action. I have tenants that have received several Section 8 Notices from me, and they still remain tenants after 5 years of tenancy.
Where a landlord has a tenant/s that you have described, then keeping things on a business footing, letting an agent deal with the tenant/s can reduce damage limitations. For there are times when landlords are dealing with the tenant over rental arrears, it becomes too personal, confrontational, leading to a challenge for the tenant/s to surmount, possibly not just rental arrears but also a vandalised property.
It is early days in the tenancy, leave it to the experts, letting agents to deal with, and if at a later date you need further advice, then please pm me.
Sounds advice, thanks a lot for your time mate.Section 8 is just a Notice to the tenant/s, advising that unless the rental arrears are reduced within 14 days, then it is the agents/LL’s intentions to proceed with legal action, the same does not compel the agent/LL to proceed with legal action. I have tenants that have received several Section 8 Notices from me, and they still remain tenants after 5 years of tenancy.
Where a landlord has a tenant/s that you have described, then keeping things on a business footing, letting an agent deal with the tenant/s can reduce damage limitations. For there are times when landlords are dealing with the tenant over rental arrears, it becomes too personal, confrontational, leading to a challenge for the tenant/s to surmount, possibly not just rental arrears but also a vandalised property.
It is early days in the tenancy, leave it to the experts, letting agents to deal with, and if at a later date you need further advice, then please pm me.
Simpo Two said:
Just a stiffener: The tenants have already lied to you, they'll lie again. And the letting agent is not losing £600pcm. You are. The quicker you get rid of them the quicker you can start again with better tenants IMHO (or sell up like I did for an easier life). Keep it legal of course but don't buy any more hard luck stories. (And you ARE buying them, literally, at a cost of several hundred pounds each)
Don't be afraid of issuing a Section 8; it's the first real step you can take.
Due to a number of reasons (mainly financial) it's simply not viable for me to sell up now. I do realise the pitfalls of letting privately but I guess I was just to naive to believe by spending a little extra on a (locally well known) agents to manage will cover most bases.Don't be afraid of issuing a Section 8; it's the first real step you can take.
I might just be over-worrying about the whole thing as I seem to be going through a rough time at the moment with various problems (minor ones but they all add up...). Tomorrow is the date given by tenant to agent (via email) of which they will reinstate the standing order... let's see how that turns out...
The tenants promised to make payment by today and as expected that payment didn't come through. Just got a call from the agent informing me this and was told all they can do now is keep chasing.
I will be taking Wings advise onboard as I have a feeling he is a practicing solicitor...
edit: I've also asked about the clause in the tenancy agreement about interest on missed payments (not that I bother much about that but would like some kind of action taken in the mean time) and apparently it is very hard for the agents to enforce this... Starting to give me the impression the tenancy agreement is not worth anything! I've even asked what kind of background checks were carried out and they told me that's confidential...
I will be taking Wings advise onboard as I have a feeling he is a practicing solicitor...
edit: I've also asked about the clause in the tenancy agreement about interest on missed payments (not that I bother much about that but would like some kind of action taken in the mean time) and apparently it is very hard for the agents to enforce this... Starting to give me the impression the tenancy agreement is not worth anything! I've even asked what kind of background checks were carried out and they told me that's confidential...
Edited by crazy about cars on Wednesday 17th October 16:00
Edited by crazy about cars on Wednesday 17th October 16:01
Wings said:
If today is the second anniversary of your tenant/s failing to pay any rent, then your tenant/s are two months in rental arrears.
To reduce your damage limitations, you should through your agents, immediately issue your tenant/s a Section 8 Notice. The Notice accords your tenant/s 14 days to either clear or reduce the two months rental arrears, with the failure of your tenant/s to either of the same, allows a landlord to start both repossession proceedings and the recovery of the debt etc. through the courts.
I am not a solicitor but a landlord that has both taken repossession proceedings through the courts, for myself and in assisting other landlords with the legal process.
Whilst from afar I can offer you general advice, I believe that the initial best course of action you can take, is to keep the situation under a business footing, allowing the letting agent to communicate with the tenant/s, and if need be a local solicitor to implement legal proceedings.
Lastly, a Tenancy Agreement is a starting point, a point of evidence in times of disputes, and adding interest on to the arrears, may be the last of your worries.
Thanks again To reduce your damage limitations, you should through your agents, immediately issue your tenant/s a Section 8 Notice. The Notice accords your tenant/s 14 days to either clear or reduce the two months rental arrears, with the failure of your tenant/s to either of the same, allows a landlord to start both repossession proceedings and the recovery of the debt etc. through the courts.
I am not a solicitor but a landlord that has both taken repossession proceedings through the courts, for myself and in assisting other landlords with the legal process.
Whilst from afar I can offer you general advice, I believe that the initial best course of action you can take, is to keep the situation under a business footing, allowing the letting agent to communicate with the tenant/s, and if need be a local solicitor to implement legal proceedings.
Lastly, a Tenancy Agreement is a starting point, a point of evidence in times of disputes, and adding interest on to the arrears, may be the last of your worries.
I thought you were a solicitor from your language used. The second anniversary (presuming they don't pay until then) would be on the 30th November...
james12345 said:
The Section 8 gives the tenants two weeks to be less than two rental periods in arrears - they could make a small payment to reduce this amount, and then the Section 8 becomes irrelevant.
This is another worry I have. Thanks again for the information. As advised I'm currently leaving everything to the agents to handle but I am gathering information in case further action is needed. The TA says the term is 6 months.E-B said:
Crazy, your lettings agent isnt Millers Countrywide by chance? I'm currently not having the best of relationships with them.
15% +vat for them to collect the rent, plus charges for rental guarantees, and charges for HMRC submissions and i have to pay for the annual safety checks etc.
From a rental of £700pcm i see about £550ish. Out of pocket every month as the mortgage is high £600's.
Admitedly the tenant is hassle free on the whole. the dishwasher packed in, she bought a new one (told me after i'd bought a replacement) and now the washing machine has packed in. Hope she buys a new one for herself....
Part of me wants to sack off the Agents so i break even, but part of me thinks what if???
Nope but my agents are pretty well known around the East Midlands. I am paying around 11% + VAT now but it was negotiated down from around 15%.15% +vat for them to collect the rent, plus charges for rental guarantees, and charges for HMRC submissions and i have to pay for the annual safety checks etc.
From a rental of £700pcm i see about £550ish. Out of pocket every month as the mortgage is high £600's.
Admitedly the tenant is hassle free on the whole. the dishwasher packed in, she bought a new one (told me after i'd bought a replacement) and now the washing machine has packed in. Hope she buys a new one for herself....
Part of me wants to sack off the Agents so i break even, but part of me thinks what if???
I do feel your pain (and stress!) but pardon me for asking but it looks like to me you are suffering a loss every month which is not good? I think you definitely need to negotiate management charges with your agents. I also never supply any white goods to tenants. I just upkeep whatever that comes with the house. I've renovated the house (it's a new house before current tenant) and built a very nice decking area in the garden too so at the moment I too am running negative income...
E-B said:
I used to live in it, Then my wife and I inherited a house worth over twice of the rental.
As an 'investment' i have a straight forward repayment mortgage, for an input of say £1200ish year i'm seeing as much again coming off the capital repayment on the mortgage roll each year.
I'm viewing it as a bit of a pension fund i suppose. At least the taxman can't have me for income tax (i hope - but probably capital gains though!!).
There's nothing like living mortgage free! For £1200/year I don't think you will be taxed but it's better to check. I rung the HRMC hotline to ask questions when I was unsure.As an 'investment' i have a straight forward repayment mortgage, for an input of say £1200ish year i'm seeing as much again coming off the capital repayment on the mortgage roll each year.
I'm viewing it as a bit of a pension fund i suppose. At least the taxman can't have me for income tax (i hope - but probably capital gains though!!).
Quick update :
Looks like the tenants are trying it on. Repeatedly lied to the agents and kept missing payments. The thing is they pay one month off at very last minute so this just leaves them 1 month in arrear!!! Agent is trying to arrange house inspection but so far has been unsuccessful... if this takes a turn for the worse this could mean them refusing to vacate the property when the 6 month term is up in 3 months time! If this happens basically they can seize all payments and live in the house for free while I need to spend £££ on legal bills to fight them I've no idea how they could even pass a history check!
Not a news I like to hear now
Looks like the tenants are trying it on. Repeatedly lied to the agents and kept missing payments. The thing is they pay one month off at very last minute so this just leaves them 1 month in arrear!!! Agent is trying to arrange house inspection but so far has been unsuccessful... if this takes a turn for the worse this could mean them refusing to vacate the property when the 6 month term is up in 3 months time! If this happens basically they can seize all payments and live in the house for free while I need to spend £££ on legal bills to fight them
I've no idea how they could even pass a history check!Not a news I like to hear now
Edited by crazy about cars on Thursday 8th November 15:55
mondeoman said:
Hang on - if they are on an Assured Short-term Tenancy, then the worst you are looking at now is losing three months rent. In a months time you serve a Section 21, as their tenancy is legally over in 2 months from that date, so unless YOU renew the agreement, they have to leave...
Serve the 21, 2 months later they're gone. Job jobbed.
Thanks for the advice. Pretty miffed at why they are not cooperating with the request for the house inspection as well! I will definitely not renew the agreement but was told there is a chance the tenants refuse to leave but that's very rare case. Serve the 21, 2 months later they're gone. Job jobbed.
3 months rent is over 2k for me before tax so that's quite a big amount to loose... lesson learnt I guess but still gutted as I would have thought I took at the necessary precautions (bar insisting on a more in-depth history check which would be too excessive anyway for a normal tenant backgroun check...)
Well this is definitely taking the piss... First off, agents keep sending monthly invoices demanding payment for their services (house inspection due) despite not being able to collect the rent AND not even able to go in for a house inspection.
Secondly, the tenants seem to be piling in new stuff in the house and bought another car for their sons while dodging the rent! Plenty of lies given to the tenant about how they are skint. I am having problems manageing my finances on the rented house and with Christmas coming this is definitely giving me a lot of stress...
I've asked about legal action and apparently I have to sort this out myself as agents won't do anything legal except serve notice (but they won't serve it yet - understandably).
ARGHHHHHHH... I think I will sell the house once this nightmare is over.
Secondly, the tenants seem to be piling in new stuff in the house and bought another car for their sons while dodging the rent! Plenty of lies given to the tenant about how they are skint. I am having problems manageing my finances on the rented house and with Christmas coming this is definitely giving me a lot of stress...
I've asked about legal action and apparently I have to sort this out myself as agents won't do anything legal except serve notice (but they won't serve it yet - understandably).
ARGHHHHHHH... I think I will sell the house once this nightmare is over.
Edited by crazy about cars on Tuesday 13th November 15:30
Davel said:
So the Agent is charging you for services that they are failing to provide?
May be worth you seeking legal advice....
They sent the invoices. When I questioned them on the phone she told me she'll have to speak to her manager. No payment has been demanded yet but I just find it daft sending invoices in that way.May be worth you seeking legal advice....
The normal agent I deal with works only 3 days a week so half the time I'm dealing with the other agent who I personally think can't care less about my situation...
Perhaps a rant but I can't believe it's that easy to exploit honest landlords. So many red tape to cut through before I can even issue a warning! Checked the contract and the contract ends February so I can issue notice of termination in December. I've also heard I didn't need to issue 2 month's notice if it's a short tenancy contract (6 months) as I've been warned if the tenants knew they will get thrown out they might give me more problems... now sure what to do now :S
Well today finally got the house inspection done. I think they can sense that the agents are not happy with them as well. Rent finally paid up (it's in agent's account so awaiting transfer to mine at the moment) and apparently tenants has told agents that they have now setup a "proper" direct debit to pay the rent (they were supposed to do this from Day 1!).
The agents have told me that I can serve the notice whenever I want but can only enforce it in February (end of tenancy agreement) so it seems that there's no 2 month's notices in affect here? She advised me to serve it closer to the termination date to avoid any possibilities of further rent dodging/issues. This seems fair to me if there's no legal requirement for me to serve 2 months notice. I've briefly read up on this and it seems for short term agreements (up to 6 months) there seem to be no need for 2 month's notice but not sure if this applies in my case.
The agents have told me that I can serve the notice whenever I want but can only enforce it in February (end of tenancy agreement) so it seems that there's no 2 month's notices in affect here? She advised me to serve it closer to the termination date to avoid any possibilities of further rent dodging/issues. This seems fair to me if there's no legal requirement for me to serve 2 months notice. I've briefly read up on this and it seems for short term agreements (up to 6 months) there seem to be no need for 2 month's notice but not sure if this applies in my case.
Yes, the tenancy agreement reads "AST Agreement under the Housing Act 1988 (as amended by the Housing Act 1996)".
Weird that the agents told me that I don't need to serve 2 months notice then. Perhaps I should go speak to them face-to-face as there seem to be too much confusion over emails and even phone calls.
Weird that the agents told me that I don't need to serve 2 months notice then. Perhaps I should go speak to them face-to-face as there seem to be too much confusion over emails and even phone calls.
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