Solar Panels?

[g40steve]

I think the arguments are fading with soaring energy costs.
My supposedly 8/9 year payback will be down to 3/4 if we see 60p, any higher & I probably timed it to perfection.

There are some crazy prices quoted recently & Wild West bonanza springs to mind.

I would go with a recognisable company & myself went with So Energy who fit nationwide according to the team that worked on my home.

Don’t pay up front, get several quotes & be prepared to wait. Any company that has stock or can fit you in within weeks should be ringing alarm bells.

[OldSkoolRS]

bigmowley said:

I do wonder if the naysayers are just grumpy because they haven’t got the balls to jump into the pond with the rest of us.

Oh please.

I'm here doing research to buy them as soon as we have some inheritance through, plus it seems we'll have to wait regardless due to demand. I just don't want to employ a cowboy company, or equally not pay well over the odds and I was trying to work out whether the battery option is worthwhile for us at the moment: I know the later gets zero VAT if bought now with the panels, but if I wait a year or two then so be it...people are suggesting battery prices might drop anyway, so I could be no worse off especially if I stick the £8k away somewhere for 2-3 years. So far I don't think it is worth it for me, but I haven't ordered the kit yet, so still could add if anything/one convinces me it's worth doing.

If the ROI is longer than the lifetime of certain parts then I'm not lacking balls, but I might have more sense than someone buying blindly without going into their specific use case properly, verses ROI. Chances are it works out for most people, especially given rising prices, but I can't stand the evangelical attitude if anyone dares to question if it's the right choice for everyone.

Edited by OldSkoolRS on Tuesday 16th August 19:54

[r3g]

OldSkoolRS said:

If the ROI is longer than the lifetime of certain parts then I'm not lacking balls, but I might have more sense than someone buying blindly without going into their specific use case properly, verses ROI. Chances are it works out for most people, especially given rising prices, but I can't stand the evangelical attitude if anyone dares to question if it's the right choice for everyone.

kWh was 15p a couple of years ago. October it's going to 60p and expected to continue rising next year. If you'd bought solar when it was 15p your ROI period would already be reduced 4x (actually less as it obviously didn't go up to 60p the day atter you bought it, but you get my point).

The ultimate question on the never-ending ROI argument you need to ask yourself is : How brave are you feeling in predicting what the price of a kWh will be in 1, 5, 10, 15, 20 years time AND whether you think the reports by numerous energy 'experts' warning of the likelihood of brown-outs is to be taken seriously or roundly ignored as nonsense.

Edited by r3g on Tuesday 16th August 20:51

[OldSkoolRS]

r3g said:

kWh was 15p a couple of years ago. October it's going to 60p and expected to continue rising next year. If you'd bought solar when it was 15p your ROI period would already be reduced 4x (actually less as it obviously didn't go up to 60p the day atter you bought it, but you get my point).

The ultimate question on the never-ending ROI argument you need to ask yourself is : How brave are you feeling in predicting what the price of a kWh will be in 1, 5, 10, 15, 20 years time AND whether you think the reports by numerous energy 'experts' warning of the likelihood of brown-outs is to be taken seriously or roundly ignored as nonsense.

Edited by r3g on Tuesday 16th August 20:51

It's the ROI on the batteries that isn't working for me, and there is no point worrying about the price in 20 years time as the batteries I buy now will be fked by then anyway. The panels work out fine for me; just trying to get some sensible quotes and not have to wait years to get them put in.

For brownouts to be avoided then you'd need some kind of isolation from the grid, which I understand you can do and run off grid, but it's not a standard part of a typical install. Without batteries wouldn't be much point anyway, but might be something I could allow for in future.

The trouble is that as much as I'm trying to find out information on here and elsewhere I'm just getting the pro battery side banging on about their use case and it doesn't necessarily carry over to mine and I find it frustrating. There might be some useful calcs that I could be shown to back it up (even if I could swap to another supplier/tarriff) but just shouting 'batteries are great' at me doesn't convince me: £8k on top of an already expensive installation (yes I'm not a PH company director, sorry) is a big chunk of money if I'm not going to get a benefit from it before they become inefficient/fail completely.

I have no plans to buy an EV for at least the next 5 years either, possibly longer: A cheap petrol local car covers my needs at £40-50 a month for petrol and it's paid for, so no lease payments on top, plus we walk locally anyway. The main car is going to have to last longer and it'll be a long time before I can afford an EV that will take me to visit family about 300 miles away. Even then I'll be worried about battery life on that, unless you think that shouldn't be taken seriously or just regarded as nonsense.

Edited by OldSkoolRS on Tuesday 16th August 21:10

[Traffic]

r3g said:

OldSkoolRS said:

If the ROI is longer than the lifetime of certain parts then I'm not lacking balls, but I might have more sense than someone buying blindly without going into their specific use case properly, verses ROI. Chances are it works out for most people, especially given rising prices, but I can't stand the evangelical attitude if anyone dares to question if it's the right choice for everyone.

kWh was 15p a couple of years ago. October it's going to 60p and expected to continue rising next year. If you'd bought solar when it was 15p your ROI period would already be reduced 4x (actually less as it obviously didn't go up to 60p the day atter you bought it, but you get my point).

The ultimate question on the never-ending ROI argument you need to ask yourself is : How brave are you feeling in predicting what the price of a kWh will be in 1, 5, 10, 15, 20 years time AND whether you think the reports by numerous energy 'experts' warning of the likelihood of brown-outs is to be taken seriously or roundly ignored as nonsense.

Edited by r3g on Tuesday 16th August 20:51

Thanks to the total Bellend, that is known as Putin, I have managed somewhere around 5% ROI in 8 months here (not-UK) and I have some relaxation about the winter now too which is actually the nice thing about this, for some it's green energy, others it's cost reduction and others it's stable electricity bills. For me it's all three but I had not planned the Ukraine invasion into my calcs last autumn so it's been fantastic timing.

Edited by Traffic on Tuesday 16th August 21:30

[Temo_Wil]

OldSkoolRS said:

r3g said:

kWh was 15p a couple of years ago. October it's going to 60p and expected to continue rising next year. If you'd bought solar when it was 15p your ROI period would already be reduced 4x (actually less as it obviously didn't go up to 60p the day atter you bought it, but you get my point).

The ultimate question on the never-ending ROI argument you need to ask yourself is : How brave are you feeling in predicting what the price of a kWh will be in 1, 5, 10, 15, 20 years time AND whether you think the reports by numerous energy 'experts' warning of the likelihood of brown-outs is to be taken seriously or roundly ignored as nonsense.

Edited by r3g on Tuesday 16th August 20:51

It's the ROI on the batteries that isn't working for me, and there is no point worrying about the price in 20 years time as the batteries I buy now will be fked by then anyway. The panels work out fine for me; just trying to get some sensible quotes and not have to wait years to get them put in.

For brownouts to be avoided then you'd need some kind of isolation from the grid, which I understand you can do and run off grid, but it's not a standard part of a typical install. Without batteries wouldn't be much point anyway, but might be something I could allow for in future.

The trouble is that as much as I'm trying to find out information on here and elsewhere I'm just getting the pro battery side banging on about their use case and it doesn't necessarily carry over to mine and I find it frustrating. There might be some useful calcs that I could be shown to back it up (even if I could swap to another supplier/tarriff) but just shouting 'batteries are great' at me doesn't convince me: £8k on top of an already expensive installation (yes I'm not a PH company director, sorry) is a big chunk of money if I'm not going to get a benefit from it before they become inefficient/fail completely.

I have no plans to buy an EV for at least the next 5 years either, possibly longer: A cheap petrol local car covers my needs at £40-50 a month for petrol and it's paid for, so no lease payments on top, plus we walk locally anyway. The main car is going to have to last longer and it'll be a long time before I can afford an EV that will take me to visit family about 300 miles away. Even then I'll be worried about battery life on that, unless you think that shouldn't be taken seriously or just regarded as nonsense.

Edited by OldSkoolRS on Tuesday 16th August 21:10

Batteries are an awkward one due to the high outlay. You don’t need to spend £8k though, you could start with something like a 5.8kwh master for around £3k (also no VAT if installed with panels), see how you get on and if you find yourself needing more storage then you could add a couple of slave batteries onto the system.

I was lucky with my quote and if I was having to pay £8k for batteries it would have been a different decision.

[OldSkoolRS]

Temo_Wil said:

Batteries are an awkward one due to the high outlay. You don’t need to spend £8k though, you could start with something like a 5.8kwh master for around £3k (also no VAT if installed with panels), see how you get on and if you find yourself needing more storage then you could add a couple of slave batteries onto the system.

I was lucky with my quote and if I was having to pay £8k for batteries it would have been a different decision.

Thanks that is useful to know, though it will depend on who does the installation as to the battery options; I'll have another look at their options. I take it I can't add them immediately afterwards perhaps if my son in law fitted the battery but not the main panels? He can do both, but I'd have to supply the panels, etc and I don't know if I want the hassle of trying to do it piecemeal. Even so it might be worth paying the VAT and getting him to fit it later on perhaps, depending on the savings, but that could cause hassle with warranty issues I suppose if I mix suppliers/installers.

I get the charging on a cheap rate thing too, but I do wonder how long it will be before that becomes much less of a cheaper rate once more people are charging EVs overnight (or house batteries for that matter). Of course we don't have a crystal ball on that one, so I'd just look at it in terms of solar charging the battery and using a little bit at night until it runs out; I think our evening usage is lower than daytime even allowing for lighting with all the washing machine, etc being used during the day. Even my car project would be done during the day, though will be more lighting than much power once I've done the last few MIG welding bits.

[r3g]

OldSkoolRS said:

The trouble is that as much as I'm trying to find out information on here and elsewhere I'm just getting the pro battery side banging on about their use case

Snipped for brevity.

Again, this circles right back to my previous question on where you think prices will be in the future, and the state of the grid itself in terms of consistent and reliable operation. As things stand right now with the current price and grid working as it should, then no, adding batteries doesn't make financial sense if ROI is your primary concern. But it would do if the price of a kWh is 2x or 3x what it is now in years to come. Even more so if the grid goes down for periods (this would need additional switches in a standard install to isolate from the grid, otherwise your solar doesn't work either).

My personal opinion is that the green agenda drive under the guise of "climate change" will be ramped up on steroids in the coming years which will see any energy producted from fossil fuels reach biblical price levels. But! Considering how many middle and lower class folks are going to get rekt this winter with the increased prices I think we will see even more energy "stimmy checks" from the government to pay for them, which will reduce the effective price of a kWh to a more sensible level, ergo creating even more of a headache to determine a solar ROI. Of course, such action would need to be paid for somehow, so expect even more inflation and higher taxation down the line.

In short: there are far too many variables and unknowns to determine when solar would see its ROI. You have to make your own call based on what you expect to see in the world in the coming years. For me, I'm not getting a warm fuzzy feeling and so imo a solar install with batts, grid isolators and a decent output wood burner I consider to be solid investments. YMMV.

[OldSkoolRS]

r3g said:

In short: there are far too many variables and unknowns to determine when solar would see its ROI. You have to make your own call based on what you expect to see in the world in the coming years. For me, I'm not getting a warm fuzzy feeling and so imo a solar install with batts, grid isolators and a decent output wood burner I consider to be solid investments. YMMV.

All valid points and I'm sure a crystal ball would be fantastic if we only knew how it will all pan out.

Useful info from Temo Wil and I've rechecked the EON quote which gives me a ballpark as they quote a 2.6kwh battery for an additional £3,200 or so. It didn't take long to find something bigger for less that my son in law could fit after EON do the main installation, even if I have to pay the VAT on that battery. £3k is much more palatable than £8k and as Temo said I could add more slaves later if I really wanted to/decided it was worth it.

All very much more constructive than getting annoyed about ROI questions and I feel I understand a little bit more, so thanks: I'm manually monitoring our daily usage at the moment while I wait for our smart meter installation, which should help give more details in terms of how much we're likely to charge up a battery during the day verses our use (based on a 4kw array).

On the plus side; for once we've got the cheaper option as we are totally unshaded and one side of the 10 metre long roof faces South East, so gets a decent amount of light for much of the day. EON prices are higher for another version that is shaded, or if we were bothered enough to put lower profile panels on (I don't care what the neighbour opposite has to look at to be honest).

[Condi]

Some people are happy installing them to reduce CO2, some people just want to be independent of the grid, some people want a hedge against future prices, there are loads of reasons... no right or wrong ones.

The panels and batteries will likely last longer than expected, the inverters are what go. In 30 years time when power is £2/kwh Future You might be thankful of Past You, nobody knows for sure. It could be 2p/kwh. Who knows?

[OutInTheShed]

Condi said:

Some people are happy installing them to reduce CO2, some people just want to be independent of the grid, some people want a hedge against future prices, there are loads of reasons... no right or wrong ones.

The panels and batteries will likely last longer than expected, the inverters are what go. In 30 years time when power is £2/kwh Future You might be thankful of Past You, nobody knows for sure. It could be 2p/kwh. Who knows?

Well said.

Also some people have the cash today, so buying today means that cash is not whittled away by inflation.
What electricity costs in 3 years time has to be considered in the currency's value at that time?

So many ways of looking at it.

Home batteries are IMHO grossly over priced.
Still about £1,000 per kWh?

You can buy batteries at half that price/kWh and get a free Vauxhall Corsa.
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202205125...

50kWh, 26 grand.

[dmsims]

Whilst battery and shipping costs have risen a good quality plug and play battery is £400
/Kwh

Some of the quotes for panels/batteries are utterly ridiculous

[OldSkoolRS]

dmsims said:

Whilst battery and shipping costs have risen a good quality plug and play battery is £400
/Kwh

Some of the quotes for panels/batteries are utterly ridiculous

I'm leaning towards getting the panels & inverters installed, then getting my son in law to install the battery later as there seems to be such a mark up on the companies who will install with the panels. Even allowing for having to pay the VAT on the battery. I just want to find out whether not ordering the battery option at the time of installation means that I'll have different parts on my system that won't allow a battery to be added easily later. Also whether it will limit the current I can draw from the battery (within the battery's own limits of course).

Have you any links to 'plug and play' batteries for £400/Kwh as I'm turning up ones quite bit more than that at the moment?

EDIT: I like the free Corsa idea Outintheshed. Not that I want to spend £25k in the first place though.

Edited by OldSkoolRS on Wednesday 17th August 09:09

[SoliD]

OldSkoolRS said:

Thanks that is useful to know, though it will depend on who does the installation as to the battery options; I'll have another look at their options. I take it I can't add them immediately afterwards perhaps if my son in law fitted the battery but not the main panels? He can do both, but I'd have to supply the panels, etc and I don't know if I want the hassle of trying to do it piecemeal. Even so it might be worth paying the VAT and getting him to fit it later on perhaps, depending on the savings, but that could cause hassle with warranty issues I suppose if I mix suppliers/installers.

I get the charging on a cheap rate thing too, but I do wonder how long it will be before that becomes much less of a cheaper rate once more people are charging EVs overnight (or house batteries for that matter). Of course we don't have a crystal ball on that one, so I'd just look at it in terms of solar charging the battery and using a little bit at night until it runs out; I think our evening usage is lower than daytime even allowing for lighting with all the washing machine, etc being used during the day. Even my car project would be done during the day, though will be more lighting than much power once I've done the last few MIG welding bits.

I can't see the cheaper night rates going anywhere any time soon. Yes people are jumping on them with EVs and battery storage, but this is all new demand to the grid and will be countered by all the various chargers that are still being used during the day everywhere(supermarkets, businesses etc), and because of this there will still be the huge differential in demand between day and night that the networks will try to balance, they may become less lucrative but they'll still be significantly cheaper than the day rate.

In regards to battery, I went big with 2x8.2kwh batteries and through June used 325kwh from them alone (400kwh of my solar was used), but each use case will be different, but I have AirCon and left it running pretty much 24/7 ticking over, so ROI with my usage is about the same as the solar, but the main bit is that on days like today or when it is cloudy and you're not generating much it balances stupid things like dishwasher and kettle usage so you're not pulling from the grid.

[AW10]

Everyone can make their own choices based upon what they perceive the value to be to them. For me, solar panels are purely a financial decision - will they save me money over their lifetime? With the previous FITs of circa 11 years ago it was the proverbial no-brainer so I went ahead in 3Q2011. Sold that house 18 months ago after 10+ years of lovely FIT payments. I also have 20 years of electricity consumption figures for that house - 10 years without the panels and then 10 years with.

I also posted about a friend's system with a battery - another real world data point.

Currently the numbers don't work for me. But some of the suppliers are happy to quote wildly optimistic numbers as to what can be used in-house and people are making purchase decisions based on these figures. I'm trying to inject some realism. Even the energy saving trust isn't as optimistic as most of the suppliers.

[Biggus thingus]

No expert here but looking for abit of advice

Currently paying about £80 p/m for ga & electric but SWMBO who also looks after that side of things is saying we're looking at £320 p/m if we fix for the next 3 yrs

The bulk of that will be electric as all appliances are electric and just gas for heating, so rough maths says to me an extra £150/200 p/m electric bill

Just had a £10.2k quote for 8 x 400w panels, inverter & 5.12kWh Sunsynk battery(also told that extra batteries can be added and the invertor would'nt need to be changed)

Back of the house is south facing

Simple question is would the panels fill the battery most of the year? Would the battery provide the electricity needed in the evening so taking little to nothing from the grid? Presumably can't get away from the standing charge to factor in

Certainly not a powerfully built PH director so please excuse the rudimentary man maths but am close or miles out on this?

thanks

[g40steve]

Biggus thingus said:

No expert here but looking for abit of advice

Currently paying about £80 p/m for ga & electric but SWMBO who also looks after that side of things is saying we're looking at £320 p/m if we fix for the next 3 yrs

The bulk of that will be electric as all appliances are electric and just gas for heating, so rough maths says to me an extra £150/200 p/m electric bill

Just had a £10.2k quote for 8 x 400w panels, inverter & 5.12kWh Sunsynk battery(also told that extra batteries can be added and the invertor would'nt need to be changed)

Back of the house is south facing

Simple question is would the panels fill the battery most of the year? Would the battery provide the electricity needed in the evening so taking little to nothing from the grid? Presumably can't get away from the standing charge to factor in

Certainly not a powerfully built PH director so please excuse the rudimentary man maths but am close or miles out on this?

thanks

You won’t see 12 months, but I guess you realise that, winter usually cloudy & dull.

For comparison I have a Puredrive 5KWh, battery, 14X375w Eurener panels, Solis dual 5000 inverter, 2- tigo optimisers, solar immersion ( not fitted wrong brand delivered) all the scaffolding, team on site for two days, £9600. I get £400 or whatever the immersion costs refunded if I don’t go ahead with it.

My friend had a similar quote from another company last week & it was £14k

[Biggus thingus]

g40steve said:

Biggus thingus said:

No expert here but looking for abit of advice

Currently paying about £80 p/m for ga & electric but SWMBO who also looks after that side of things is saying we're looking at £320 p/m if we fix for the next 3 yrs

The bulk of that will be electric as all appliances are electric and just gas for heating, so rough maths says to me an extra £150/200 p/m electric bill

Just had a £10.2k quote for 8 x 400w panels, inverter & 5.12kWh Sunsynk battery(also told that extra batteries can be added and the invertor would'nt need to be changed)

Back of the house is south facing

Simple question is would the panels fill the battery most of the year? Would the battery provide the electricity needed in the evening so taking little to nothing from the grid? Presumably can't get away from the standing charge to factor in

Certainly not a powerfully built PH director so please excuse the rudimentary man maths but am close or miles out on this?

thanks

You won’t see 12 months, but I guess you realise that, winter usually cloudy & dull.

For comparison I have a Puredrive 5KWh, battery, 14X375w Eurener panels, Solis dual 5000 inverter, 2- tigo optimisers, solar immersion ( not fitted wrong brand delivered) all the scaffolding, team on site for two days, £9600. I get £400 or whatever the immersion costs refunded if I don’t go ahead with it.

My friend had a similar quote from another company last week & it was £14k

So what are you planning/hoping to achieve from the system? Minimize grid usage by X% in summer and Y% in winter?

Realistic ROI?

[Mars]

Three weeks ago I moved into a nearly-new house with 3x large-ish solar panels on the roof. I signed-up to Octopus who have a quite excellent app which shows both the energy exported and used.

When the sun was shining, I exported between 6 and 7kWh per day and I am using between 2 and 7kWh per day (depending whether it's a washing machine day or not). Thing is, all my export costs are during the day (of course) and most of my usage is either side of that, so I am considering batteries.

I believe my inverter is in the loft, so am I right that batteries would need to be installed up there too? Seems obvious I guess and if that's right, it would trigger me to board the loft for convenience.

Lastly, can I just buy an appropriate battery pack as an off the shelf product, or are they all customised solutions that cost £££?

[AW10]

Biggus thingus said:

No expert here but looking for abit of advice

Currently paying about £80 p/m for ga & electric but SWMBO who also looks after that side of things is saying we're looking at £320 p/m if we fix for the next 3 yrs

The bulk of that will be electric as all appliances are electric and just gas for heating, so rough maths says to me an extra £150/200 p/m electric bill

Just had a £10.2k quote for 8 x 400w panels, inverter & 5.12kWh Sunsynk battery(also told that extra batteries can be added and the invertor would'nt need to be changed)

Back of the house is south facing

Simple question is would the panels fill the battery most of the year? Would the battery provide the electricity needed in the evening so taking little to nothing from the grid? Presumably can't get away from the standing charge to factor in

Certainly not a powerfully built PH director so please excuse the rudimentary man maths but am close or miles out on this?

thanks

IMHO you’re not giving enough information for anyone to make an informed comment. What is your annual usage in kWh?