Informal Planning Advice prior to Complaint?
Discussion
Ken Figenus said:
youngsyr said:
3) unauthorised photography on private land
They took snaps from your back garden or entered the front area of your house? If so that sounds more like trespass than a photo issue? In UK you can of course photograph anything you like from a public space (well other than some military bases).Edited by youngsyr on Wednesday 29th August 21:25
I can see a multitude of issues with that.
Thanks for all the support!
An update:
Wife phoned the planning enforcement team today, they have really not hung around! They have already visited and told the neighbours to either tear it down or submit for retrospective planning permission within 8 weeks.
The officer was careful not to give anything away, but he did mention that other neighbours had elevated decks and he had told the neighbours that any balustrade around the edge of the existing deck would need to be obscured glass to protect their and future owners of their property's right to light.
He also said that any planning application would take a maximum of 8 weeks to be decided upon from receipt, but would quite probably be sooner.
Another point he mentioned was that we would be notified and consulted (as neighbours) if a planning application is submitted.
So there we go, I suspect the neighbours will get a planning application in relatively quickly, probably with at least a 4' obscured glass balustrade along our side of the deck. It's then in the lap of the planning team whether they feel that's an acceptable development.
An update:
Wife phoned the planning enforcement team today, they have really not hung around! They have already visited and told the neighbours to either tear it down or submit for retrospective planning permission within 8 weeks.
The officer was careful not to give anything away, but he did mention that other neighbours had elevated decks and he had told the neighbours that any balustrade around the edge of the existing deck would need to be obscured glass to protect their and future owners of their property's right to light.
He also said that any planning application would take a maximum of 8 weeks to be decided upon from receipt, but would quite probably be sooner.
Another point he mentioned was that we would be notified and consulted (as neighbours) if a planning application is submitted.
So there we go, I suspect the neighbours will get a planning application in relatively quickly, probably with at least a 4' obscured glass balustrade along our side of the deck. It's then in the lap of the planning team whether they feel that's an acceptable development.
zollburgers said:
This one is attached to an extension rather than the house though. I wouldn't be happy if that was built next door to me and I hope they have to lower it as it's a massive invasion of privacy.
I'm hoping this will be the salient point for the planners in denying the retrospective application. The photos also don't show that our neighbour's deck extends further from the house in its own right than the others, it extends about 5m into the garden. Add the 5m extension onto that and it extends at least 6m further into the garden than any of the other neighbours' decks, to the extent that (as above) it's possible to stand on their deck and look back from it into our lounge In any case, I don't really see why the fact that other people have broken the planning rules should allow our neighbours to do so?
Fermit TKASS said:
tighnamara said:
youngsyr said:
I'm hoping this will be the salient point for the planners in denying the retrospective application. The photos also don't show that our neighbour's deck extends further from the house in its own right than the others, it extends about 5m into the garden. Add the 5m extension onto that and it extends at least 6m further into the garden than any of the other neighbours' decks, to the extent that (as above) it's possible to stand on their deck and look back from it into our lounge
In any case, I don't really see why the fact that other people have broken the planning rules should allow our neighbours to do so?
I feel for you as it is very imposing.In any case, I don't really see why the fact that other people have broken the planning rules should allow our neighbours to do so?
Did you get the Juliet Balcony approved with no issues, it looks as though it overlooks the neighbours garden quite a bit.
I absolutely understand where you're coming from though. We wanted to include it because we have a view directly out the back of the London skyline (we are on a hill, don't forget and the ground slopes away drastically from our house). However, if we'd have realised that it would have given us so much of a view of our neighbours gardens we would have only put in a window. As a result, we keep the curtains shut on it pretty much all day, every day. You can see they're drawn in this photo even with the door open for ventilation. Normally (more than 90% of the time), the doors aren't even open.
In the longer term, we're considering adding a film to obscure the lower part of the doors.
dmsims said:
That is excellent - thank you very much!Havering is a stone's throw from our properties too, they may even be neighbouring councils.
garyhun said:
dickymint said:
We love our semi and our neighbours - just completed a 6m x 4m kitchen extension under Permitted Development (paid to get it certified beforehand as a safeguard) The plans allowed for building on the boundary up against the neighbours coal shed the roof of which was overhanging onto my side.
I didn't lay a single block without my lovely 85 year old neighbours consent (along with her daughter). I'd already decided if they showed any sort of concern then it would be Plan B (1 metre short of the boundary). She was absolutely supportive and basically said "Dicky you can do whatever you want as we can still chat over the wall further down the garden".
Her coal bunker roof had to come off and a load of her overgrown bushes ripped out.....no problems even though (as the daughter told me) the one bush had special memories for her. The roof which was totally rotten had just been re-felted (badly on our side) by her grandson. So ripped the roof off and did a temporary job so that we could crack on with the build.
I did a deal with the GRP roofer and he agreed to "chuck in" her roof at the same time.
Now unfortunately Mary had to go into hospital for a week during this period.
She returned safe and well and was greeted with a brand new Mandarin Stone patio area with, Folding clothes line attatched to our wall and hand rails to aid her down to the patio, GRP roof and a load of potted cuttings from her bush.
The look on her face was priceless compared to the cost to us.
Sorry for my ramblings, suffice to say we all sleep well in our cul de sac
Lovely story and a great example of what good neighbourly relations can be like.I didn't lay a single block without my lovely 85 year old neighbours consent (along with her daughter). I'd already decided if they showed any sort of concern then it would be Plan B (1 metre short of the boundary). She was absolutely supportive and basically said "Dicky you can do whatever you want as we can still chat over the wall further down the garden".
Her coal bunker roof had to come off and a load of her overgrown bushes ripped out.....no problems even though (as the daughter told me) the one bush had special memories for her. The roof which was totally rotten had just been re-felted (badly on our side) by her grandson. So ripped the roof off and did a temporary job so that we could crack on with the build.
I did a deal with the GRP roofer and he agreed to "chuck in" her roof at the same time.
Now unfortunately Mary had to go into hospital for a week during this period.
She returned safe and well and was greeted with a brand new Mandarin Stone patio area with, Folding clothes line attatched to our wall and hand rails to aid her down to the patio, GRP roof and a load of potted cuttings from her bush.
The look on her face was priceless compared to the cost to us.
Sorry for my ramblings, suffice to say we all sleep well in our cul de sac
We actually went around with a card and a bottle of wine when our neighbours moved in and again with a card and a box of chocolates when their daughter was born shortly thereafter. I offered to help the neighbour clear the vegetation in his front garden (now car park) and when his car broke down I offered and went over with my jack to raise the car and have a look at it.
We felt it odd that our obvious attempts at friendship were merely accepted and not returned, but we put it down to them being slightly younger, or just developing to move on.
During the "nuclear" discussion at the front of the properties, this was thrown back at us. Apparently, we were all "nicey, nicey" when they moved in, but now we were showing our true colours in this dispute.
There really is no reasoning with some people.
21TonyK said:
I do hope I am wrong but I would not be 100% surprised if the planners accepted the deck as long as an obscuring screen was put in. Only reason I say this is that there are three properties in a row all with raised decks which I assume would be in breach of planning. Any action against one would have to be applied to all.
The other decks have all been in place for more than 4 years and so, as I understand it, will have retrospective planning approval by default?Venom said:
I was a planning officer at one time, so let me share my thoughts.
That appeal decision is interesting in a number of ways, and a warning of sorts to the OP.
In that case the decking appeal was refused because the appellant hadn't taken any steps to remedy the loss of privacy. The Inspector essentially implied that it could have been adapted to sort out the problem (either lowered or an obscure glass balustrade fitted - not clear from the papers), but as neither had occurred or been proposed, then he/she was left with little choice but to uphold the refusal.
In the case of the OP, it's a little less straightforward as the gardens are relatively narrow. Whilst an obscure glass balustrade would probably sort the overlooking issue, the height of the overall boundary fence would be quite significant and have the potential to be overbearing, even allowed for some element of light penetration. Only an objective assessment on site (if the neighbours are bright enough to propose such a solution) would answer whether it's a viable answer or not.
I would caution though that, invariably, Council planners try to avoid the 'tear it down' option, they don't like the conflict or the resources it burns on their side to ensure follow through. If your neighbours do propose an obscure glass screen, I can see this just about scraping a permission, despite being unsightly and less than ideal.
Thanks for taking the time to right that out, I really appreciate it. That appeal decision is interesting in a number of ways, and a warning of sorts to the OP.
In that case the decking appeal was refused because the appellant hadn't taken any steps to remedy the loss of privacy. The Inspector essentially implied that it could have been adapted to sort out the problem (either lowered or an obscure glass balustrade fitted - not clear from the papers), but as neither had occurred or been proposed, then he/she was left with little choice but to uphold the refusal.
In the case of the OP, it's a little less straightforward as the gardens are relatively narrow. Whilst an obscure glass balustrade would probably sort the overlooking issue, the height of the overall boundary fence would be quite significant and have the potential to be overbearing, even allowed for some element of light penetration. Only an objective assessment on site (if the neighbours are bright enough to propose such a solution) would answer whether it's a viable answer or not.
I would caution though that, invariably, Council planners try to avoid the 'tear it down' option, they don't like the conflict or the resources it burns on their side to ensure follow through. If your neighbours do propose an obscure glass screen, I can see this just about scraping a permission, despite being unsightly and less than ideal.
I see where you're coming from and take your points on board.
Assuming they submit for retrospective permission after installing an obscured glass partition, I guess the route I'm left with is to provide my comments in their consultation and focus on the partition's height being overbearing. Depending on the height, it will be anything from 10' to 12' from my lawn to the top of the partition, which I think sounds less significant in words than it wil be in reality. To put it another way, the top of the partition will be 1.5 normal sizes floors above us.
Also, I'm not entirely clear what our right to light is? Obviously obscured glass will let some light through, but from our (basement) kitchen window, such a partition will block direct sunlight at some times of day from that window. Is that a point worth making?
Equus said:
youngsyr said:
Also, I'm not entirely clear what our right to light is?
From the point of view of making Planning arguments, my advc ie would be: forget about rights to light. They are complex, controlled by separate legislation, and are irrelevant to the Planning process.The phase you want to use in Planning terms is that the fence has 'an overbearing influence on the amenity of your approved extension'.
dickymint said:
youngsyr said:
Venom said:
I was a planning officer at one time, so let me share my thoughts.
That appeal decision is interesting in a number of ways, and a warning of sorts to the OP.
In that case the decking appeal was refused because the appellant hadn't taken any steps to remedy the loss of privacy. The Inspector essentially implied that it could have been adapted to sort out the problem (either lowered or an obscure glass balustrade fitted - not clear from the papers), but as neither had occurred or been proposed, then he/she was left with little choice but to uphold the refusal.
In the case of the OP, it's a little less straightforward as the gardens are relatively narrow. Whilst an obscure glass balustrade would probably sort the overlooking issue, the height of the overall boundary fence would be quite significant and have the potential to be overbearing, even allowed for some element of light penetration. Only an objective assessment on site (if the neighbours are bright enough to propose such a solution) would answer whether it's a viable answer or not.
I would caution though that, invariably, Council planners try to avoid the 'tear it down' option, they don't like the conflict or the resources it burns on their side to ensure follow through. If your neighbours do propose an obscure glass screen, I can see this just about scraping a permission, despite being unsightly and less than ideal.
Thanks for taking the time to right that out, I really appreciate it. That appeal decision is interesting in a number of ways, and a warning of sorts to the OP.
In that case the decking appeal was refused because the appellant hadn't taken any steps to remedy the loss of privacy. The Inspector essentially implied that it could have been adapted to sort out the problem (either lowered or an obscure glass balustrade fitted - not clear from the papers), but as neither had occurred or been proposed, then he/she was left with little choice but to uphold the refusal.
In the case of the OP, it's a little less straightforward as the gardens are relatively narrow. Whilst an obscure glass balustrade would probably sort the overlooking issue, the height of the overall boundary fence would be quite significant and have the potential to be overbearing, even allowed for some element of light penetration. Only an objective assessment on site (if the neighbours are bright enough to propose such a solution) would answer whether it's a viable answer or not.
I would caution though that, invariably, Council planners try to avoid the 'tear it down' option, they don't like the conflict or the resources it burns on their side to ensure follow through. If your neighbours do propose an obscure glass screen, I can see this just about scraping a permission, despite being unsightly and less than ideal.
I see where you're coming from and take your points on board.
Assuming they submit for retrospective permission after installing an obscured glass partition, I guess the route I'm left with is to provide my comments in their consultation and focus on the partition's height being overbearing. Depending on the height, it will be anything from 10' to 12' from my lawn to the top of the partition, which I think sounds less significant in words than it wil be in reality. To put it another way, the top of the partition will be 1.5 normal sizes floors above us.
Also, I'm not entirely clear what our right to light is? Obviously obscured glass will let some light through, but from our (basement) kitchen window, such a partition will block direct sunlight at some times of day from that window. Is that a point worth making?
It does create a possible issue for the Estate Agent's and sellers though as they will be showing a house which will be different to what the buyer eventually buys.
As an aside on the balustrade, the planning enforcement officer told them "He wouldn't be averse to them installing a temporary balustrade for safety purposes", which I suspect for is planning speak for "That's a death trap!".
dickymint said:
I was wondering if you saw how it was built. In particular did they dig out and put in concrete footings or just build off some sort of compacted base? They may well be scuppered under Building Regs.
Interesting point, thanks!I didn't see any footings go in, there was no mini-JCB on site (access to rear isn't big enough) or concrete mixer at the rear (there was one at the front, but not used enough to put footings in, I don't think) and I didn't see them manually dig the footings out, but I can't be 100% sure.
dmsims said:
youngsyr said:
There's actually an open day today, although as far as I can tell, no-one has turned up yet (unusual for this area, when the house was sold to our neighbours 2 years ago, it had over 20 viewings on the open day).
Wonder if this put them off ?"Agents notes
We hold material information regarding this property which could influence a purchasers transactional decision. Please ask one of our property consultants for more information."
Open day update: Clothes horse still on deck, lawn not mowed and hose in garden as of 10.30am. Could be viewings are later I guess, but the weather is nice so I would have expected people to have started trickling in by now?
Well, today was either the worst open day in local history or was cancelled, difficult to know for sure which.
The advert gave the open day details right up to this morning, but the details are no longer on there. The garden next door was cleared up about 10.45am and there looked to be a bit of last minute activity.
We went out for a couple of hours at lunchtime, but apart from that we were in and out of the garden and didn't notice a single viewer. For comparison, when the same house went on the market 2.5 years ago, the first open day was oversubscribed and they added a second. All told, IIRC, 27 people viewed it in the space of a few weeks.
Either way, I don't think it will be selling anytime soon, which is both good and bad for us.
The advert gave the open day details right up to this morning, but the details are no longer on there. The garden next door was cleared up about 10.45am and there looked to be a bit of last minute activity.
We went out for a couple of hours at lunchtime, but apart from that we were in and out of the garden and didn't notice a single viewer. For comparison, when the same house went on the market 2.5 years ago, the first open day was oversubscribed and they added a second. All told, IIRC, 27 people viewed it in the space of a few weeks.
Either way, I don't think it will be selling anytime soon, which is both good and bad for us.
Edited by youngsyr on Saturday 1st September 20:50
Drogo said:
Chin up OP.
Hopefully they are getting the message that their hideous decking neither looks aesthetically pleasing or a comfortable place to relax.
Thanks for the encouragement! I'm starting to think that what I thought was a nuclear bomb of a letter, they see as only a hiccough.Hopefully they are getting the message that their hideous decking neither looks aesthetically pleasing or a comfortable place to relax.
The house is definitely still on the market, for sale sign still in place, advert live on t'internet and they even had one viewing today (may have had more, we weren't in most of the day). There certainly hasn't been a rush to see it like the last time it was on the market.
I suspect this is because they want (possibly over the) top money for it and there has been a glut of properties coming on the market this year (older residents looking to cash in on recent high price increases and developers having picked up older houses a couple of years back and refurbing them to sell on).
I daresay the planning dispute hasn't helped either.
What their next course of action will be, only time will tell. I suspect they'll put in for retrospective planning in the next week or so and then will have to fight it out in the consultation.
Maxf said:
youngsyr said:
Good spot, I hadn't seen that! Bit off on the Estate Agent's though - it's not the potential buyer's responsibility to ask for material information, it's the EA's responsibility to tell the potential buyers.
Open day update: Clothes horse still on deck, lawn not mowed and hose in garden as of 10.30am. Could be viewings are later I guess, but the weather is nice so I would have expected people to have started trickling in by now?
The market is on it's arse - open days aren't really happening in SE London now (not of the sort we've seen before anyway).... I bought and sold a mile or so from you in May and both were a slog. I wouldnt want to be a 'property developer' in this market - the sort who paint everything grey and put up horrendous decking anyway.Open day update: Clothes horse still on deck, lawn not mowed and hose in garden as of 10.30am. Could be viewings are later I guess, but the weather is nice so I would have expected people to have started trickling in by now?
StuTheGrouch said:
Anything happened in the last week?
Not really.They've avoided us and we've avoided them, helps that they're both back at work now (teachers) as the wife and I are working at home at the moment.
There's been a trickle of viewings, maybe 5 or so over the past week.
Haven't had a response to my letter yet and I specifically asked for a written undertaking in the drain cease and desist notice, so I guess it's just a waiting game.
Haven't been notified that any planning application has gone in.
paulrockliffe said:
Although I advocate scorched-earth in these situations, as it's the only reason dick-heads listen to, it sounds like the simplest resolution to this is to convince them that the the deck isn't adding to their house value.
They've already sunk the cost of building it, if they can see that they're not going to get more money for the house if they leave it, compared with if they remove it then they might as well remove it so they can actually sell the house.
Not sure how you get that message through to them, possibly an informal chat with the estate agent as if they agree they may well be prepared to advance the argument where you would be met with hostility.
But it seems like if they want to move, the key to unlocking the whole situation is for them to realise that removing the deck leaves them in a better position.
If you have a woodburner, you could offer to help with disposal costs by burning it for them, I'm sure that would be appreciated :-)
Unfortunately, we're not dealing with reasonable people here. If we were, it would never have got to this position. I fully expect them to drag this out for a ridiculously long time, just to try to prove that they're "right" and everyone else is being selfish, unfair, unreasonable and any other name they care to throw at them.They've already sunk the cost of building it, if they can see that they're not going to get more money for the house if they leave it, compared with if they remove it then they might as well remove it so they can actually sell the house.
Not sure how you get that message through to them, possibly an informal chat with the estate agent as if they agree they may well be prepared to advance the argument where you would be met with hostility.
But it seems like if they want to move, the key to unlocking the whole situation is for them to realise that removing the deck leaves them in a better position.
If you have a woodburner, you could offer to help with disposal costs by burning it for them, I'm sure that would be appreciated :-)
RATATTAK said:
youngsyr said:
Haven't been notified that any planning application has gone in.
Not all Authorities inform neighbours nowadays - best to check onlineFair enough, I'll keep an eye on the planning portal website.
On another note, just saw today that they've reduced their asking price from offers over £600k to £585k.
I can't see that making much difference to a buyer, but it backs up my suspicions that it's not going to fly off the market.
I suspect it's got a little way to go yet, probably £550 to £560 would be my guess.
I know they bought it for £410k and they've spent 2 years renovating every room, front and back garden. They've redone the (small) bathroom and reasonably sized kitchen and must have spent at least £20k on the front and back gardens combined (for which they told us they'd had to remortgage). So I'm wondering just how much profit they've got left in it.
On another note, just saw today that they've reduced their asking price from offers over £600k to £585k.
I can't see that making much difference to a buyer, but it backs up my suspicions that it's not going to fly off the market.
I suspect it's got a little way to go yet, probably £550 to £560 would be my guess.
I know they bought it for £410k and they've spent 2 years renovating every room, front and back garden. They've redone the (small) bathroom and reasonably sized kitchen and must have spent at least £20k on the front and back gardens combined (for which they told us they'd had to remortgage). So I'm wondering just how much profit they've got left in it.
blueg33 said:
The Dictator said:
What a nightmare, how they could have thought that was ok is beyond me.
I imagine that before anyone looks at a house these days, they look on Zoopla to see what it last sold for. I know we did when we bought 5.5yrs ago. I would certainly question what would have been done in two years to warrant such a sizeable uplift in price.
2 doors down from us sold recently for £5k short of DOUBLE what we paid for ours 5.5yrs ago, admittedly theirs was nicer inside and they had spent quite a lot on it, but £215k more!!
One of my neighbours is rubbing his hands with glee, perhaps forgetting that he would have to buy another house, that will most likely have also gone up in price significantly.
You have to do anything to the house to get a higher price. In the right market conditions all you have to do is own it.I imagine that before anyone looks at a house these days, they look on Zoopla to see what it last sold for. I know we did when we bought 5.5yrs ago. I would certainly question what would have been done in two years to warrant such a sizeable uplift in price.
2 doors down from us sold recently for £5k short of DOUBLE what we paid for ours 5.5yrs ago, admittedly theirs was nicer inside and they had spent quite a lot on it, but £215k more!!
One of my neighbours is rubbing his hands with glee, perhaps forgetting that he would have to buy another house, that will most likely have also gone up in price significantly.
There was a spate of live-in developers buying on our road about 2 years ago, but then again our road was prime for it. Cross Rail was confirmed to stop at the local station, significantly improving links into London and there were a lot of families who'd owned their houses for decades without spending much on them and who were about to become empty nesters. Prices went up by c.17% if you believe the press the year before our neighbours bought.
We were probably at the forefront of the wave of younger commuters moving onto the road when we bought in 2010 and have seen the value of our place nearly double over that time. However, the developers who bought in 2 years ago haven't seen much increase in price as lots of new builds have been built at the same time in our area and the value increase from Cross Rail was factored into their purchase.
To be fair, next door have completely renovated the house and its gardens, so you'd expect quite a big uplift, I'd say to around £550k, but there won't be much profit left in it for them after transaction costs, materials and the third party labour they've had to buy in.
Gassing Station | Homes, Gardens and DIY | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff