Owning & living with a grade 2 listed home
Discussion
Morning all.
The Dave household are looking at a grade 2 listed building which has peaked our interest, but Mrs Dave has a lot of concerns over owning a grade 2 listed building as the research she's done suggests we would need to ask permission for pretty much everything to do with the interior of the house.
I'm hoping I can garner some information from people who have lived or do live in a grade two listed building. Is it really as controlled as my wife thinks it is?
The house itself was extended around 30 years ago, roughly doubling the size so I'm assuming the extension doesn't come under grade 2 restrictions (front of the house is NOT sympathetic to the look of the area but the rear ties in nicely).
For reference the only changes we'd be looking at doing in the short term would be:
Re-wire the building
New plumbing
Decorate walls (strip wallpaper & paint)
Re-carpet or lay composite/engineered oak flooring
Longer term we'd want to knock through two rooms into one - imagine this might be tough to get permission!
There's car related benefits to this property - being a decent double garage and a 6mx4m secondary garage (currently used as a boat store as it's 100yrd from nearest public slipway) and parking for around 8 cars.
Welcome advice & experience.
The Dave household are looking at a grade 2 listed building which has peaked our interest, but Mrs Dave has a lot of concerns over owning a grade 2 listed building as the research she's done suggests we would need to ask permission for pretty much everything to do with the interior of the house.
I'm hoping I can garner some information from people who have lived or do live in a grade two listed building. Is it really as controlled as my wife thinks it is?
The house itself was extended around 30 years ago, roughly doubling the size so I'm assuming the extension doesn't come under grade 2 restrictions (front of the house is NOT sympathetic to the look of the area but the rear ties in nicely).
For reference the only changes we'd be looking at doing in the short term would be:
Re-wire the building
New plumbing
Decorate walls (strip wallpaper & paint)
Re-carpet or lay composite/engineered oak flooring
Longer term we'd want to knock through two rooms into one - imagine this might be tough to get permission!
There's car related benefits to this property - being a decent double garage and a 6mx4m secondary garage (currently used as a boat store as it's 100yrd from nearest public slipway) and parking for around 8 cars.
Welcome advice & experience.
A lot can depend on the local Councils attitude from the Heritage Officer.
Some counties seem to be harder work than others.
By and large those things you list as repairs and decoration should not require any permission.
When it comes to knocking down walls it’s a completely different matter and would think permission would certainly be required.
We bought our G2 listed about 20 years ago and from the get go we invited the Heritage officer round to discuss plans both real and “ made up “ to get opinions.
Reroofing required permission but replacing bathrooms ( no change to walls ) didn’t.
Rebuilding the front wall from the sole plate into roof height did but the permission was given there and then effectively - it helped that the builder with us knew her well !
We had to repair a gable end ( complete with wattle and daub ) and I phoned her to be told to get on with it.
Our previous 3 houses had all been brand new so moving into a 400 year house was interesting but absolutely no regrets.
We are vaguely thinking about moving again but probably might go unlisted this time round though.
Some counties seem to be harder work than others.
By and large those things you list as repairs and decoration should not require any permission.
When it comes to knocking down walls it’s a completely different matter and would think permission would certainly be required.
We bought our G2 listed about 20 years ago and from the get go we invited the Heritage officer round to discuss plans both real and “ made up “ to get opinions.
Reroofing required permission but replacing bathrooms ( no change to walls ) didn’t.
Rebuilding the front wall from the sole plate into roof height did but the permission was given there and then effectively - it helped that the builder with us knew her well !
We had to repair a gable end ( complete with wattle and daub ) and I phoned her to be told to get on with it.
Our previous 3 houses had all been brand new so moving into a 400 year house was interesting but absolutely no regrets.
We are vaguely thinking about moving again but probably might go unlisted this time round though.
QuattroDave said:
The house itself was extended around 30 years ago, roughly doubling the size so I'm assuming the extension doesn't come under grade 2 restrictions
Listing is usually the whole of the curtilage, ie inc. garden.QuattroDave said:
Re-carpet or lay composite/engineered oak flooring
Solid oak flooring. Don't buy the real thing and clad it with imitations.QuattroDave said:
There's car related benefits to this property - being a decent double garage and a 6mx4m secondary garage (currently used as a boat store as it's 100yrd from nearest public slipway) and parking for around 8 cars.
Why didn't you say so in the first place? Just buy it and sort everything else out after 
alscar said:
A lot can depend on the local Councils attitude from the Heritage Officer.
Some counties seem to be harder work than others.
By and large those things you list as repairs and decoration should not require any permission.
When it comes to knocking down walls it’s a completely different matter and would think permission would certainly be required.
We bought our G2 listed about 20 years ago and from the get go we invited the Heritage officer round to discuss plans both real and “ made up “ to get opinions.
Reroofing required permission but replacing bathrooms ( no change to walls ) didn’t.
Rebuilding the front wall from the sole plate into roof height did but the permission was given there and then effectively - it helped that the builder with us knew her well !
We had to repair a gable end ( complete with wattle and daub ) and I phoned her to be told to get on with it.
Our previous 3 houses had all been brand new so moving into a 400 year house was interesting but absolutely no regrets.
We are vaguely thinking about moving again but probably might go unlisted this time round though.
Thank you, sounds like it's not as restrictive as my wife envisaged. Good news!Some counties seem to be harder work than others.
By and large those things you list as repairs and decoration should not require any permission.
When it comes to knocking down walls it’s a completely different matter and would think permission would certainly be required.
We bought our G2 listed about 20 years ago and from the get go we invited the Heritage officer round to discuss plans both real and “ made up “ to get opinions.
Reroofing required permission but replacing bathrooms ( no change to walls ) didn’t.
Rebuilding the front wall from the sole plate into roof height did but the permission was given there and then effectively - it helped that the builder with us knew her well !
We had to repair a gable end ( complete with wattle and daub ) and I phoned her to be told to get on with it.
Our previous 3 houses had all been brand new so moving into a 400 year house was interesting but absolutely no regrets.
We are vaguely thinking about moving again but probably might go unlisted this time round though.
I think it has the potential to be our forever home, but I must admit I too was slightly cautious about buying a grade 2 as I like to do a lot of DIY and have always just got on with it so the thought of having to ask permission each time was a little concerning!
TA14 said:
QuattroDave said:
The house itself was extended around 30 years ago, roughly doubling the size so I'm assuming the extension doesn't come under grade 2 restrictions
Listing is usually the whole of the curtilage, ie inc. garden.QuattroDave said:
Re-carpet or lay composite/engineered oak flooring
Solid oak flooring. Don't buy the real thing and clad it with imitations.QuattroDave said:
There's car related benefits to this property - being a decent double garage and a 6mx4m secondary garage (currently used as a boat store as it's 100yrd from nearest public slipway) and parking for around 8 cars.
Why didn't you say so in the first place? Just buy it and sort everything else out after For those who like to be nosey it's this place: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Bursledon,+South...
I wonder if anyone would notice if you changed the L to a V above the doorway.
When was that constructed?
BTW, there's unlikely to much of an issue with the electrics or plumbing - they don't want the property to burn down or flood. For both be careful that the fabric of the property is not damaged during installation and pay great attention to the details such as choice of switches and no plastic pipes exposed.
When was that constructed?
BTW, there's unlikely to much of an issue with the electrics or plumbing - they don't want the property to burn down or flood. For both be careful that the fabric of the property is not damaged during installation and pay great attention to the details such as choice of switches and no plastic pipes exposed.
As mentioned by alscar, things very much depend on the views of your Listed Building offcier. Unfortunately, they pretty much have things their own particular way.
Prior to our purchase, we had a chat with the Head Man of Listed Buildings of our Council who advised that we could more or less do what we wanted inside the building but would have to seek permission for anything outside.
This has not really been a problem, everything we have asked for has been agreed, the oddest was the insistance of double-glazed windows only being wooden.
The new sewerage treatment plant is underground but has a visible plastic lid, but as it is within the curtilage, permission had to be requested. It was granted.
Prior to our purchase, we had a chat with the Head Man of Listed Buildings of our Council who advised that we could more or less do what we wanted inside the building but would have to seek permission for anything outside.
This has not really been a problem, everything we have asked for has been agreed, the oddest was the insistance of double-glazed windows only being wooden.
The new sewerage treatment plant is underground but has a visible plastic lid, but as it is within the curtilage, permission had to be requested. It was granted.
ChocolateFrog said:
I've done it and wouldn't do it again.
I hated having to ask someone if I could fit this new door or that new window.
I probably wouldn't consider one if I wanted to make substantial changes I hated having to ask someone if I could fit this new door or that new window.
Changing doors and windows like for like isn't a problem, but anything that changes the fabric of the building, or involves changes to the curtilage is going to be way more complicated than something that isn't listed.
philv said:
If windows and doors are wood then be aware you'll be painting/repairing them and will likely never be able to replace them.
It's probably only every 8-10 years, but if some windows are inaccessible without scaffolding etc it can get expensive.
Similarly with cast iron guttering.
You will be able to replace them like for like quite easily It's probably only every 8-10 years, but if some windows are inaccessible without scaffolding etc it can get expensive.
Similarly with cast iron guttering.
It depends.
It depends on the property, what aspects are deemed protecting, and the attitude of the Officer. However, Grade II is the lowest rating (like 95% of Listed domestic properties) so there is more leeway than you might think.
Rewiring, decoration, new bathrooms/kitchen etc should all be ok as long as you don’t start pulling out original features like fireplaces.
Things I’ve had done to a Grade II building (with permission!);
New roof (Welsh slate as per original, but new not reclaimed)
New (large) dormer window added to rear elevation
New oriel window
New floors
Take out walls
Take out lots of details added when the building was divided into 3 in the 1950s (we were going back closer to original 1820 layout)
New sliding glass roof and stainless steel spiral staircase to access new roof terrace
New bathrooms & kitchen
Lift
New orangery added
New porch over front door
The front (public) elevation had to look the same and we couldn’t change the windows but apart from that no issues.
It is all very context dependent so as I said “it depends”. But my experience of renovating and owning Grade II (and a II*) properties is that it’s not the issue that many people think/exoerience. I think a lot of bad experiences come from people who aren’t aware of the issues until after they’ve bought and then can’t understand why they can’t stick a flat roofed extension on the side just because ”it’s my house”.
It depends on the property, what aspects are deemed protecting, and the attitude of the Officer. However, Grade II is the lowest rating (like 95% of Listed domestic properties) so there is more leeway than you might think.
Rewiring, decoration, new bathrooms/kitchen etc should all be ok as long as you don’t start pulling out original features like fireplaces.
Things I’ve had done to a Grade II building (with permission!);
New roof (Welsh slate as per original, but new not reclaimed)
New (large) dormer window added to rear elevation
New oriel window
New floors
Take out walls
Take out lots of details added when the building was divided into 3 in the 1950s (we were going back closer to original 1820 layout)
New sliding glass roof and stainless steel spiral staircase to access new roof terrace
New bathrooms & kitchen
Lift
New orangery added
New porch over front door
The front (public) elevation had to look the same and we couldn’t change the windows but apart from that no issues.
It is all very context dependent so as I said “it depends”. But my experience of renovating and owning Grade II (and a II*) properties is that it’s not the issue that many people think/exoerience. I think a lot of bad experiences come from people who aren’t aware of the issues until after they’ve bought and then can’t understand why they can’t stick a flat roofed extension on the side just because ”it’s my house”.
QuattroDave said:
Morning all.
The Dave household are looking at a grade 2 listed building which has peaked our interest, but Mrs Dave has a lot of concerns over owning a grade 2 listed building as the research she's done suggests we would need to ask permission for pretty much everything to do with the interior of the house.
I'm hoping I can garner some information from people who have lived or do live in a grade two listed building. Is it really as controlled as my wife thinks it is?
The house itself was extended around 30 years ago, roughly doubling the size so I'm assuming the extension doesn't come under grade 2 restrictions (front of the house is NOT sympathetic to the look of the area but the rear ties in nicely).
For reference the only changes we'd be looking at doing in the short term would be:
Re-wire the building
New plumbing
Decorate walls (strip wallpaper & paint)
Re-carpet or lay composite/engineered oak flooring
Longer term we'd want to knock through two rooms into one - imagine this might be tough to get permission!
There's car related benefits to this property - being a decent double garage and a 6mx4m secondary garage (currently used as a boat store as it's 100yrd from nearest public slipway) and parking for around 8 cars.
Welcome advice & experience.
IME all of that would be fine, except maybe knocking down the walls.The Dave household are looking at a grade 2 listed building which has peaked our interest, but Mrs Dave has a lot of concerns over owning a grade 2 listed building as the research she's done suggests we would need to ask permission for pretty much everything to do with the interior of the house.
I'm hoping I can garner some information from people who have lived or do live in a grade two listed building. Is it really as controlled as my wife thinks it is?
The house itself was extended around 30 years ago, roughly doubling the size so I'm assuming the extension doesn't come under grade 2 restrictions (front of the house is NOT sympathetic to the look of the area but the rear ties in nicely).
For reference the only changes we'd be looking at doing in the short term would be:
Re-wire the building
New plumbing
Decorate walls (strip wallpaper & paint)
Re-carpet or lay composite/engineered oak flooring
Longer term we'd want to knock through two rooms into one - imagine this might be tough to get permission!
There's car related benefits to this property - being a decent double garage and a 6mx4m secondary garage (currently used as a boat store as it's 100yrd from nearest public slipway) and parking for around 8 cars.
Welcome advice & experience.
I expect they would come down to whether they are original and/or help define the original character of the property.
Vague I know, but for example if it was originally a barn or longhouse then the walls would've been an additional feature and probably not of interest.
We looked at a grade B listed building (Scotlands equivalent to grade 2) and had similar concerns,
We met with the local conservation officer and came away with a view that he simply saw us as a cash cow to get the house completely restored to how he thought it should be, much mention of repair orders and such like.
At that point we decided that any listing status would make a property a complete no from us.
We met with the local conservation officer and came away with a view that he simply saw us as a cash cow to get the house completely restored to how he thought it should be, much mention of repair orders and such like.
At that point we decided that any listing status would make a property a complete no from us.
TownIdiot said:
philv said:
If windows and doors are wood then be aware you'll be painting/repairing them and will likely never be able to replace them.
It's probably only every 8-10 years, but if some windows are inaccessible without scaffolding etc it can get expensive.
Similarly with cast iron guttering.
You will be able to replace them like for like quite easily It's probably only every 8-10 years, but if some windows are inaccessible without scaffolding etc it can get expensive.
Similarly with cast iron guttering.
TownIdiot said:
philv said:
If windows and doors are wood then be aware you'll be painting/repairing them and will likely never be able to replace them.
It's probably only every 8-10 years, but if some windows are inaccessible without scaffolding etc it can get expensive.
Similarly with cast iron guttering.
You will be able to replace them like for like quite easily It's probably only every 8-10 years, but if some windows are inaccessible without scaffolding etc it can get expensive.
Similarly with cast iron guttering.
I knew a lady a few years ago who had a listed building and she was prohibited from replacing the rotten wooden windows with an identical product, they had to be repaired.
It was only a change of conservation officer that eventually permitted them to be replaced.
119 said:
Hmmmm.
I knew a lady a few years ago who had a listed building and she was prohibited from replacing the rotten wooden windows with an identical product, they had to be repaired.
It was only a change of conservation officer that eventually permitted them to be replaced.
The only time I've heard of that was on *listed properties.I knew a lady a few years ago who had a listed building and she was prohibited from replacing the rotten wooden windows with an identical product, they had to be repaired.
It was only a change of conservation officer that eventually permitted them to be replaced.
Having said that there are plenty of tales of over zealous conservation officers as well.
Try to meet with the local conservation officer before you buy.
Spend some £ on a respected (by said conservation officer) local heritage architect and get their view on what will be permitted and get them to submit the planning requests when you are ready.
A single large request can open up trade-off opportunities and the work can be progressed over time. It can also improve resale with easy to access plans and audit trail.
We've had very few issues with our G2* house, but we did spend the £ up front with the right professionals.
I can see how someone doing a "rolling restoration" on a limited budget with multiple planning requests required may find it all too hard. And if you don't care about protecting UK's architectural history, then there are plenty of newer houses available...Paralla's thread is an excellent demonstration of how to do it right.
Mike
Spend some £ on a respected (by said conservation officer) local heritage architect and get their view on what will be permitted and get them to submit the planning requests when you are ready.
A single large request can open up trade-off opportunities and the work can be progressed over time. It can also improve resale with easy to access plans and audit trail.
We've had very few issues with our G2* house, but we did spend the £ up front with the right professionals.
I can see how someone doing a "rolling restoration" on a limited budget with multiple planning requests required may find it all too hard. And if you don't care about protecting UK's architectural history, then there are plenty of newer houses available...Paralla's thread is an excellent demonstration of how to do it right.
Mike
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