Price of puppies
Discussion
Equus said:
Most of the 'designer' crossbreeds like cockapoos and labradoodles have been bred for specific traits that are useful in today's homes (ie. a family dog of a certain size and temperament, that doesn't shed hair as badly as many of the traditional breeds).
But that's the problem buying a 1st or even recent generation cross breed, you don't actually know what traits and with what effectiveness you get in each puppy.It's like people buying micropigs, that turn out to be bloody big pigs.
Tyre Smoke said:
I don't have an argument with anything you say. I have constantly railed against exactly what you describe these dogs as - designer breeds. Like they are something special. It's a clever marketing ploy by breeders or your next door neighbour to cash in by giving them fancy names to appeal to certain buyers. Consequently the price rises as the market dictates. I understand all that.
I'm happy to explain my reasoning to anyone who can accept an alternative point of view. I won't engage with anyone who makes vile (now thankfully removed) insults.
Lovely dogs pointers, I agree with you though. A breed that is 'obsolete' now.
But they aren’t given fancy names to attract buyers. These are names driven by the two breeds that are mixed together to create the dog. It’s not like the name has been made up out of thin air. Also a Cockapoo has been around since the 1960’s, but it has become a lot more popular because it offers what people want from a family dog. Things will settle down in 2021 as more people go back to normal life, and prices will return to normal. Difference will be that these so called mongrels will be the breeds of choice for many people and so-called pedigrees will become extinct, I'm happy to explain my reasoning to anyone who can accept an alternative point of view. I won't engage with anyone who makes vile (now thankfully removed) insults.
Lovely dogs pointers, I agree with you though. A breed that is 'obsolete' now.
Tyre Smoke said:
I have constantly railed against exactly what you describe these dogs as - designer breeds.
It seems that you just don't like the term 'designer breeds'?It's no more cringeworthy (and much less pejorative) than the term 'pedigree', though, and it does describe the process used for both: you take breeds of dogs with known traits, and blend them or selectively breed them to deliberately obtain a different or enhanced mix of characteristics. The only real difference is that with Labradors and Golden Retrievers, that process took place 150 years ago, whereas with Cockapoos and Labradoodles it's happened much more recently.
They are something special, in terms of the characteristics they offer modern buyers: just as special and as valuable as the (remarkable, when you think about it - albeit pretty useless these days) ability for Pointers to 'point' their prey or cattle dogs to herd cattle.
What's really strange, if you think about it, is the fact that we're still attaching a premium value to breeds like Pointers and cattle dogs, when the special characteristics they were bred and originally valued for are now almost totally redundant.
Edited by Equus on Monday 28th December 09:09
Evanivitch said:
Except the designer cross-breeds are dependent on pedigree parentage 
At the moment: and that's one of the reasons they're so costly... you have to make it worth the while of owners of pedigree parent breeds to cross them, for a litter, rather than stick to a litter within their pedigree.And yes, I agree that as first-generation crosses, you will get some inconsistency of result.
A Cockapoo vs Cockapoo 'cross' will still give you a Cockapoo, though, so they won't be dependent on pedigree parentage as the breeds become established, and this will reinforce the desirable traits and make them more reliable.
Absolutely nothing different, in either case, to the processes that created established 'pedigree' breeds like Golden Retrievers, Spaniels, Setters or whatever, in their time - and where, again, the first generation results, where they offered the correct characteristics, were very valuable indeed.
The point that 'pedigree' snobs seem to be missing is that their breeds were originally valuable because they excelled at serving a purpose, not because some anally retentive anorak at the Kennel Club could score them against a 'breed standard' at a dog show.
Equus said:
A Cockapoo vs Cockapoo 'cross' will still give you a Cockapoo, though, so they won't be dependent on pedigree parentage as the breeds become established, and this will reinforce the desirable traits and make them more reliable.
Nope, that's not how it works. You admitted yourself a cockapoo can have a variety of traits.You have to be selective in your breeding of those first few generations to ensure you get a consistent breed and healthy traits.
The problem with an unrecognised by the KC breed is that no one is controlling that standard, and with so many people keen to make big money off a litter, there's little incentive to be selective.
Evanivitch said:
Nope, that's not how it works. You admitted yourself a cockapoo can have a variety of traits.
You have to be selective in your breeding of those first few generations to ensure you get a consistent breed and healthy traits.
Which is exactly how it worked with every other 'pedigree' breed as it first evolved.You have to be selective in your breeding of those first few generations to ensure you get a consistent breed and healthy traits.
You still get breed variations even within a Pedigree standard: to again use Golden Retrievers as an example, there is a wide variation in size and colour, almost to the degree of sub-breeds - some being an almost white yellowish cream, some being almost Red Setter red.
Same with English Pointers; just up the road from where I live is a lady who claims to be the last breeder of a sub-strain of Yorkshire Field Pointers, which are completely different in size and build to my pedigree dog from a show strain. My own b
h (from Spain) is literally half the size of my dog, and a different colour (orange and white patches instead of black and white ticking).I had an interesting conversation with our local dog trainer over Christmas. Up until tier 4, she was rushed off her feet doing private sessions for really horribly behaved dogs that were too badly socialised to come to a group session. She normally has a handful of basket cases on her books at any one time, now she has lots. The owners are morons as well, one literally said “I paid £2000 for this dog, why isn’t it well behaved?”.
Her prediction - go round the rescues in July if you want a dog. July will be when the morons realise that they want to go on holiday and need something done with the dog. They’ll need work, but nothing a competent owner can’t handle.
Her prediction - go round the rescues in July if you want a dog. July will be when the morons realise that they want to go on holiday and need something done with the dog. They’ll need work, but nothing a competent owner can’t handle.
rxe said:
I had an interesting conversation with our local dog trainer over Christmas. Up until tier 4, she was rushed off her feet doing private sessions for really horribly behaved dogs that were too badly socialised to come to a group session. She normally has a handful of basket cases on her books at any one time, now she has lots. The owners are morons as well, one literally said “I paid £2000 for this dog, why isn’t it well behaved?”.
Her prediction - go round the rescues in July if you want a dog. July will be when the morons realise that they want to go on holiday and need something done with the dog. They’ll need work, but nothing a competent owner can’t handle.
I also fear that dogs are going to end up in homes, but 10 months later it's yet to happen. There isn't too many dogs in the homes at the moment and every single one is too old to be a Covid rejection. Her prediction - go round the rescues in July if you want a dog. July will be when the morons realise that they want to go on holiday and need something done with the dog. They’ll need work, but nothing a competent owner can’t handle.
Let's be honest morons have always owned dogs. There has always been ill behaved dogs and owners unwilling to look after and pick up after their dog. They didn't used to seek professional help.
There is clearly a lot more dogs in my walking areas than before. I really don't see any more ill behaved dogs that I came across before. I'm meeting lots of first time owners who are getting along really well.
If they are going to get through the puppy stage, bond with their dog, I can't see going on holiday the reason for abandonment.
Algarve said:
Covid lockdown pups will still be relatively new, relatively cute and young and still have a novelty factor to them.
I don't think we are anywhere near peak dumping time for them yet unfortunately.
Exactly this. There are still a huge number of new owners on furlough or one adult in the house on furlough/working from home. When people start going back to offices and normal workplaces, then you'll see the abandonment.I don't think we are anywhere near peak dumping time for them yet unfortunately.
Algarve said:
Covid lockdown pups will still be relatively new, relatively cute and young and still have a novelty factor to them.
I don't think we are anywhere near peak dumping time for them yet unfortunately.
In the summer we saw the new puppies getting walked all the time. Now it's wet and cold, we rarely see them at all. The novelty is definitely wearing off.I don't think we are anywhere near peak dumping time for them yet unfortunately.
I'm amazed at how people will talk themselves out of getting a rescue dog. Coming up with all sorts of bogus reasons when they basically just don't fancy one.
I rescued my lurcher Mollie 8 years ago. She has been the best investment I've ever made, £105 to Battersea (paid by my ex wife) .
There is a rescue dog for everyone, young, old, lazy, hyper, small, big, Pedegree, mongrel.
Seeing all the covid puppies fills me with worry about all the abandoned dogs in a few months.
I rescued my lurcher Mollie 8 years ago. She has been the best investment I've ever made, £105 to Battersea (paid by my ex wife) .
There is a rescue dog for everyone, young, old, lazy, hyper, small, big, Pedegree, mongrel.
Seeing all the covid puppies fills me with worry about all the abandoned dogs in a few months.
Edited by jackliebling on Monday 28th December 22:33
Edited by jackliebling on Monday 28th December 22:34
Tyre Smoke said:
I know a Goldendoodle isn't. Not a labradoodle, cockerpoo, jackshund, or any other crossbreed name. None of which are recognised by the KC. And if the KC doesn't recognise it, that's good enough for me.
So what's your point?
The reality is that even if YOU don't recognise a 'doodle as a breed the rest of the world does going by their popularity.... so your a bit in the minority. You don't need a Kennel Club to create or recognise a breed for it to exist. You only need that if need personal validation of your dogs level of perfection or how much you paid for it....So what's your point?
So what if a Goldendoodle is a cross-breed or 'mongrel' as you like to call them. To me, a mongrel is a heinz 57 variety that has come about from un-managed random shack up in the park whilst unsupervised. We properly research our dogs, and we spend a lot on vet fee's to ensure that mum and pup's need for nothing. We breed a dog that's very much in demand primarily for their temperament, their size and their lack of coat shedding (not that they all have that particular feature, second cross's are best for that!) and also because they are very good companions and even therapy dogs.
As for pedigree's, you need to remember as well how in-breeding of dogs created that pedigree and how damaging that was to the pedigree gene pool. A lot of these 'Premium' pedigree dogs, recognised by the KC, have congenital defects bred into them to make the perfect specimen of a breed or a breed standard. King Charles Cavaliers for example with a skull too small for it's brain and the amount of heart defects and joint defects and in the pugs, the inability to breath because the squashed nose is such a desirable feature??? This is not something that is seen so much in 'doodles as they benefit from 'hybrid vigour'
So all in all, they are worth every penny!
No offence meant to anyone owning an example of these “designer breeds” as some call them,but they are mongrels,pure & simple. That’s not a slight,it’s a fact. I will say that isn’t a bad thing,most mongrels are far healthier than their “pedigree” cousins,which is also a fact. I also find the amount of money these dogs appear to cost,personally,absolutely absurd. But then,as with most things in life,something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Wouldn’t it be great for the dog(s) concerned,if the high cost of ownership guaranteed a great life.....? If only that were true 😔
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