Discussion
M@verick said:
Does seem to be taking a while to cycle doesnt it. Sorry, I have not read the whole thread, but have you tested your tap water as a control ?. I would advise doing a couple of 20% water changes once the ammonia and nitrite have finally gone, to knock the nitrate down a tad, but you might find that you tap water is high in nitrates as it is (this is why most of us marine fish keepers run RO units with TDS meters on).
Good luck with it anyway, and well done for being patient !.
R.
Thanks for the reply.Good luck with it anyway, and well done for being patient !.
R.
My tap water is coming out at around 10 ppm for nitrate. Once I've got the tank processing 5 ppm of ammonia through to nitrate in 12 hours, the tank will be cycled and I'll do a 95% water change (storing the internal filter in a bucket of old tank water, just turn the external off and it will still be submerged) with dechlorinated tap water to prepare the tank for fishies.
Hopefully I'm around halfway!
Sounds like you are getting there. 10ppm isnt too bad tap water wise, and nitrates are less problematic for freshwater trops anyway. I wouldnt advise doing a 95% water change unless you plan to leave the tank another month before you add fish.
de-chlorinated tap water, brought up to temp is of course good for water changes - in that you are diluting any dissolved toxins that have accumulated in the tank. However, clean aged tank water is better/less "shocking" for fish than newly dechlorinated tap water.
A water change of 50% should be enough to lower the nitrates significantly and dilute anything which has accumulated from the initiation of the nitrogen cycle in the tank, but as you have no bio-load in there at the moment, you wont have anything significant to remove. If you want to be sure or you simply want to polish the water just run carbon for 8 hours after you have done the water change.
Once the tank is hosting fish - keep water changes to 20 - 25% every month, I have seen fish endure some really terrible conditions in my time (used to run an aquatics shop and did home visits on occasion) which they have gotten used to over time, but what they always seem to struggle with are fast changes to environment or chemical water composition - Ph shock, or temp changes for example will stress or kill fish, despite whether the actual ph level or temps were "survivable" with incremental change.
Hope this helps.
R.
ps - Also when introducing fish, be sure to acclimatise properly - I use the "drip method" (google is your friend) for this with marines, freshwater tropicals can be treated similarly.
de-chlorinated tap water, brought up to temp is of course good for water changes - in that you are diluting any dissolved toxins that have accumulated in the tank. However, clean aged tank water is better/less "shocking" for fish than newly dechlorinated tap water.
A water change of 50% should be enough to lower the nitrates significantly and dilute anything which has accumulated from the initiation of the nitrogen cycle in the tank, but as you have no bio-load in there at the moment, you wont have anything significant to remove. If you want to be sure or you simply want to polish the water just run carbon for 8 hours after you have done the water change.
Once the tank is hosting fish - keep water changes to 20 - 25% every month, I have seen fish endure some really terrible conditions in my time (used to run an aquatics shop and did home visits on occasion) which they have gotten used to over time, but what they always seem to struggle with are fast changes to environment or chemical water composition - Ph shock, or temp changes for example will stress or kill fish, despite whether the actual ph level or temps were "survivable" with incremental change.
Hope this helps.
R.
ps - Also when introducing fish, be sure to acclimatise properly - I use the "drip method" (google is your friend) for this with marines, freshwater tropicals can be treated similarly.
Edited by M@verick on Tuesday 27th September 12:29
M@verick said:
Sounds like you are getting there. 10ppm isnt too bad tap water wise, and nitrates are less problematic for freshwater trops anyway. I wouldnt advise doing a 95% water change unless you plan to leave the tank another month before you add fish.
de-chlorinated tap water, brought up to temp is of course good for water changes - in that you are diluting any dissolved toxins that have accumulated in the tank. However, clean aged tank water is better/less "shocking" for fish than newly dechlorinated tap water.
A water change of 50% should be enough to lower the nitrates significantly and dilute anything which has accumulated from the initiation of the nitrogen cycle in the tank, but as you have no bio-load in there at the moment, you wont have anything significant to remove. If you want to be sure or you simply want to polish the water just run carbon for 8 hours after you have done the water change.
Once the tank is hosting fish - keep water changes to 20 - 25% every month, I have seen fish endure some really terrible conditions in my time (used to run an aquatics shop and did home visits on occasion) which they have gotten used to over time, but what they always seem to struggle with are fast changes to environment or chemical water composition - Ph shock, or temp changes for example will stress or kill fish, despite whether the actual ph level or temps were "survivable" with incremental change.
Hope this helps.
R.
ps - Also when introducing fish, be sure to acclimatise properly - I use the "drip method" (google is your friend) for this with marines, freshwater tropicals can be treated similarly.
Day 31: 27/9/11de-chlorinated tap water, brought up to temp is of course good for water changes - in that you are diluting any dissolved toxins that have accumulated in the tank. However, clean aged tank water is better/less "shocking" for fish than newly dechlorinated tap water.
A water change of 50% should be enough to lower the nitrates significantly and dilute anything which has accumulated from the initiation of the nitrogen cycle in the tank, but as you have no bio-load in there at the moment, you wont have anything significant to remove. If you want to be sure or you simply want to polish the water just run carbon for 8 hours after you have done the water change.
Once the tank is hosting fish - keep water changes to 20 - 25% every month, I have seen fish endure some really terrible conditions in my time (used to run an aquatics shop and did home visits on occasion) which they have gotten used to over time, but what they always seem to struggle with are fast changes to environment or chemical water composition - Ph shock, or temp changes for example will stress or kill fish, despite whether the actual ph level or temps were "survivable" with incremental change.
Hope this helps.
R.
ps - Also when introducing fish, be sure to acclimatise properly - I use the "drip method" (google is your friend) for this with marines, freshwater tropicals can be treated similarly.
Edited by M@verick on Tuesday 27th September 12:29
Today is a good day. I started my new (first real) job this morning. When I arrived back home I checked my tank 26 hours after dosing to 5ppm. Results are VERY pleasing.
pH: 7.5
Ammonia: 0 ppm
NitrIte: off the scale
NitrAte: 80-100 ppm
Finally! So now I change the dosing to 3ppm to prevent nitrIte build up, right? Keep dosing every 24 hours until I start getting double zeros then start 12 hour testing?
Thanks for the advice, I was lead to believe elsewhere that once the tank is cycled a large water change is required to bring the nitrates down. But I guess since I will be lightly planting, some nitrates will disappear there eh?
Comacchio said:
Day 31: 27/9/11
Today is a good day. I started my new (first real) job this morning. When I arrived back home I checked my tank 26 hours after dosing to 5ppm. Results are VERY pleasing.
pH: 7.5
Ammonia: 0 ppm
NitrIte: off the scale
NitrAte: 80-100 ppm
Finally! So now I change the dosing to 3ppm to prevent nitrIte build up, right? Keep dosing every 24 hours until I start getting double zeros then start 12 hour testing?
Thanks for the advice, I was lead to believe elsewhere that once the tank is cycled a large water change is required to bring the nitrates down. But I guess since I will be lightly planting, some nitrates will disappear there eh?
Good stuff !. Today is a good day. I started my new (first real) job this morning. When I arrived back home I checked my tank 26 hours after dosing to 5ppm. Results are VERY pleasing.
pH: 7.5
Ammonia: 0 ppm
NitrIte: off the scale
NitrAte: 80-100 ppm
Finally! So now I change the dosing to 3ppm to prevent nitrIte build up, right? Keep dosing every 24 hours until I start getting double zeros then start 12 hour testing?
Thanks for the advice, I was lead to believe elsewhere that once the tank is cycled a large water change is required to bring the nitrates down. But I guess since I will be lightly planting, some nitrates will disappear there eh?
I havent ever cycled a tank using neat ammonia so I cannot comment on this method, I can only imagine the intention in keeping the dose of ammonia topped up would be to stimulate further growth of nitrosomas bacter ?. The nitrogen cycle needs to adjust to the level of bio load of the tank, which is partly why you leave a time gap in between adding new fish. The break down of dissolved organics in the water will go through the cycle of Ammonia to Nitrite to Nitrate, (then whatever the plants manage to filter out will be released from the tank as free nitrogen). If you are seeing movement in the numbers for each its safe to assume that you have the correct bacteria present. I would carry on dosing if that is what has been advised, essentially when Ammonia and Nitrite are both at 0ppm you are good to go.
You can use large water changes to bring nitrates down yes. The only other way to do this is to use a chemical nitrate filter (hmm, not convinced on them myself) or some form of refugium (containing macro algae) or an algal turf scrubber - both aim to remove excess nutrients and will remove nitrate to an extent.
However I would always try to keep circa 50% of the aged tank water in the tank, so you could for example do a 50% change, wait a week and then do another 50% change and so on, if you wanted to dilute the Nitrate quite quickly, or in emergency cases even more frequently. What I would try to avoid doing is making large scale snap changes such that the fish are physically shocked or stressed by the change. If you want to do a 95% change, then thats fine - as your tank is currently empty, just dont add fish for a couple of weeks after this, let the tank water age again.
With regard to Nitrates, it is not *as* critical in a freshwater tank, largely nitrate removal is something which became a necessity in marine tanks due to corals and inverts intolerance to it (and phosphates). This highlighted the issue, essentially Nitrate is not immediately toxic in the same way that Nitrite or Ammonia are, but over time if fish are kept in high levels of Nitrate (circa 50 ppm plus) then health problems can ensue. I would say its unlikely that you are ever going to achieve 0 ppm Nitrate with your set up, since 1) it is the end product (as far as we are concerned) of the nitrogen cycle, and you will always have dissolved organic matter in your tank being cycled 2) your tap water is starting off with 10ppm in it. If however you keep a periodical eye on it, and try to keep it as low as you can (25ppm or less is a good bench mark for normal fresh water tropical husbandry, I have heard talk of reducing it if you are attempting to breed difficult species) through the combination of a partially planted tank, some use of chemical filtration when required, and regular water changes - then you will be fine.
Sorry I cant offer more help with the Ammonia dosing - im old school in terms of filtration, and far more used to marine set ups.
Hope this helps though,
R.
Edited by M@verick on Tuesday 27th September 19:23
M@verick said:
Good stuff !.
I havent ever cycled a tank using neat ammonia so I cannot comment on this method, I can only imagine the intention in keeping the dose of ammonia topped up would be to stimulate further growth of nitrosomas bacter ?. The nitrogen cycle needs to adjust to the level of bio load of the tank, which is partly why you leave a time gap in between adding new fish. The break down of dissolved organics in the water will go through the cycle of Ammonia to Nitrite to Nitrate, (then whatever the plants manage to filter out will be released from the tank as free nitrogen). If you are seeing movement in the numbers for each its safe to assume that you have the correct bacteria present. I would carry on dosing if that is what has been advised, essentially when Ammonia and Nitrite are both at 0ppm you are good to go.
You can use large water changes to bring nitrates down yes. The only other way to do this is to use a chemical nitrate filter (hmm, not convinced on them myself) or some form of refugium (containing macro algae) or an algal turf scrubber - both aim to remove excess nutrients and will remove nitrate to an extent.
However I would always try to keep circa 50% of the aged tank water in the tank, so you could for example do a 50% change, wait a week and then do another 50% change and so on, if you wanted to dilute the Nitrate quite quickly, or in emergency cases even more frequently. What I would try to avoid doing is making large scale snap changes such that the fish are physically shocked or stressed by the change. If you want to do a 95% change, then thats fine - as your tank is currently empty, just dont add fish for a couple of weeks after this, let the tank water age again.
With regard to Nitrates, it is not *as* critical in a freshwater tank, largely nitrate removal is something which became a necessity in marine tanks due to corals and inverts intolerance to it (and phosphates). This highlighted the issue, essentially Nitrate is not immediately toxic in the same way that Nitrite or Ammonia are, but over time if fish are kept in high levels of Nitrate (circa 50 ppm plus) then health problems can ensue. I would say its unlikely that you are ever going to achieve 0 ppm Nitrate with your set up, since 1) it is the end product (as far as we are concerned) of the nitrogen cycle, and you will always have dissolved organic matter in your tank being cycled 2) your tap water is starting off with 10ppm in it. If however you keep a periodical eye on it, and try to keep it as low as you can (25ppm or less is a good bench mark for normal fresh water tropical husbandry, I have heard talk of reducing it if you are attempting to breed difficult species) through the combination of a partially planted tank, some use of chemical filtration when required, and regular water changes - then you will be fine.
Sorry I cant offer more help with the Ammonia dosing - im old school in terms of filtration, and far more used to marine set ups.
Hope this helps though,
R.
Again, thanks so much for the advice I really appreciate your time and knowledge.I havent ever cycled a tank using neat ammonia so I cannot comment on this method, I can only imagine the intention in keeping the dose of ammonia topped up would be to stimulate further growth of nitrosomas bacter ?. The nitrogen cycle needs to adjust to the level of bio load of the tank, which is partly why you leave a time gap in between adding new fish. The break down of dissolved organics in the water will go through the cycle of Ammonia to Nitrite to Nitrate, (then whatever the plants manage to filter out will be released from the tank as free nitrogen). If you are seeing movement in the numbers for each its safe to assume that you have the correct bacteria present. I would carry on dosing if that is what has been advised, essentially when Ammonia and Nitrite are both at 0ppm you are good to go.
You can use large water changes to bring nitrates down yes. The only other way to do this is to use a chemical nitrate filter (hmm, not convinced on them myself) or some form of refugium (containing macro algae) or an algal turf scrubber - both aim to remove excess nutrients and will remove nitrate to an extent.
However I would always try to keep circa 50% of the aged tank water in the tank, so you could for example do a 50% change, wait a week and then do another 50% change and so on, if you wanted to dilute the Nitrate quite quickly, or in emergency cases even more frequently. What I would try to avoid doing is making large scale snap changes such that the fish are physically shocked or stressed by the change. If you want to do a 95% change, then thats fine - as your tank is currently empty, just dont add fish for a couple of weeks after this, let the tank water age again.
With regard to Nitrates, it is not *as* critical in a freshwater tank, largely nitrate removal is something which became a necessity in marine tanks due to corals and inverts intolerance to it (and phosphates). This highlighted the issue, essentially Nitrate is not immediately toxic in the same way that Nitrite or Ammonia are, but over time if fish are kept in high levels of Nitrate (circa 50 ppm plus) then health problems can ensue. I would say its unlikely that you are ever going to achieve 0 ppm Nitrate with your set up, since 1) it is the end product (as far as we are concerned) of the nitrogen cycle, and you will always have dissolved organic matter in your tank being cycled 2) your tap water is starting off with 10ppm in it. If however you keep a periodical eye on it, and try to keep it as low as you can (25ppm or less is a good bench mark for normal fresh water tropical husbandry, I have heard talk of reducing it if you are attempting to breed difficult species) through the combination of a partially planted tank, some use of chemical filtration when required, and regular water changes - then you will be fine.
Sorry I cant offer more help with the Ammonia dosing - im old school in terms of filtration, and far more used to marine set ups.
Hope this helps though,
R.
Edited by M@verick on Tuesday 27th September 19:23
The theory is that now I have cultivated the A-bacs all I need to do now is provide 'food' for them to sustain the current level of ammonia conversion without overloading the nitrite in the tank. This is due to the fact the N-bacs take much longer to become a decent sized colony. So if I only dose 3ppm per day and this is continually processed within 12-24 hours then the colony wouldn't take much longer to be able to process the whole 5 ppm. This helps keep the levels of nitrites lower to allow the N-bacs to catch up.
Once 5ppm of ammonia is converted right through to nitrate in 12 hours I'm ready for fish and plants. And I really can't wait for that! But I shall because I don't want to put the fish through poisoning from ammonia or nitrites.
I guess a 50% water change when I first notice the levels dropping in 12 hours will remove some of the nitrates. Then I would be into my qualifying week where I dose the tank with 5ppm of ammonia once in a 24 hour period and 12 hours after dosing I check the levels. If for 7 days running the 12 hour test brings back double zeros on ammonia and nitrate, the tank is cycled. I'll then do another 50% water change and test for nitrates. If the levels are too high for fish I'll put in my planned plants, let them do their thing and then when the levels are sub 40ppm, fish time!
interesting results you are getting. Also thanks for explaining the ammonia procedure, thats a new one on me - but does make sense. The only thing I find a little strange is that i have always used either a cycling product or just a raw prawn or silverside dropped into the tank, and this seems to establish a tank quicker and more evenly than the results you are currently getting - every tank is different though, so this might just be a quirk of your particular tank.
something I would consider in your position (not to artificially speed up the process, but to help stabilise it bacteria wise) would be to get a cup of gravel from the established system of a friendly neighbourhood aquarist - and add this to your gravel (i realise you arent running an undergravel filter but the nitrosomas bacter will populate anything with a decent surface area, and will find their way to your filtration media). Or you used to be able to buy a product called "cycle" (i think) which contained the bacteria you are trying to culture, in a bottle - you can dose a tank with this and either bolster, or establish a bacterial colony, people used to use it to add to the tank when adding new fish years ago.
Of course you dont need to do either of these things, the tank will get there in its own time
Keep us updated with the test results !.
R.
something I would consider in your position (not to artificially speed up the process, but to help stabilise it bacteria wise) would be to get a cup of gravel from the established system of a friendly neighbourhood aquarist - and add this to your gravel (i realise you arent running an undergravel filter but the nitrosomas bacter will populate anything with a decent surface area, and will find their way to your filtration media). Or you used to be able to buy a product called "cycle" (i think) which contained the bacteria you are trying to culture, in a bottle - you can dose a tank with this and either bolster, or establish a bacterial colony, people used to use it to add to the tank when adding new fish years ago.
Of course you dont need to do either of these things, the tank will get there in its own time
Keep us updated with the test results !.
R.
M@verick said:
interesting results you are getting. Also thanks for explaining the ammonia procedure, thats a new one on me - but does make sense. The only thing I find a little strange is that i have always used either a cycling product or just a raw prawn or silverside dropped into the tank, and this seems to establish a tank quicker and more evenly than the results you are currently getting - every tank is different though, so this might just be a quirk of your particular tank.
something I would consider in your position (not to artificially speed up the process, but to help stabilise it bacteria wise) would be to get a cup of gravel from the established system of a friendly neighbourhood aquarist - and add this to your gravel (i realise you arent running an undergravel filter but the nitrosomas bacter will populate anything with a decent surface area, and will find their way to your filtration media). Or you used to be able to buy a product called "cycle" (i think) which contained the bacteria you are trying to culture, in a bottle - you can dose a tank with this and either bolster, or establish a bacterial colony, people used to use it to add to the tank when adding new fish years ago.
Of course you dont need to do either of these things, the tank will get there in its own time
Keep us updated with the test results !.
R.
We normally do our bit to help our family and friends to mature their tank byt donating a used sponge when we replace one of ours, along with several litres of tank water. This alongside some of my guppies has been putting people o. The straight and narrow.something I would consider in your position (not to artificially speed up the process, but to help stabilise it bacteria wise) would be to get a cup of gravel from the established system of a friendly neighbourhood aquarist - and add this to your gravel (i realise you arent running an undergravel filter but the nitrosomas bacter will populate anything with a decent surface area, and will find their way to your filtration media). Or you used to be able to buy a product called "cycle" (i think) which contained the bacteria you are trying to culture, in a bottle - you can dose a tank with this and either bolster, or establish a bacterial colony, people used to use it to add to the tank when adding new fish years ago.
Of course you dont need to do either of these things, the tank will get there in its own time
Keep us updated with the test results !.
R.
Maybe use some local forums to find someone who can donate you a sponge.
Tested the tank 12 hours after dosing. Got back 0.5ppm ammonia and nitrite off scale.
24 hour test:
Day 34:
Temp: 30-31 (Warmer weather pushed this up)
pH: 8
Ammonia: 0 ppm
NitrIte: 0 ppm
NitrAte: Not tested but known to be 100+ ppm
Ok, I'm officially clueless! I dont know how the nitrite disappeared so fast! Going to dose to 5 ppm and see what my levels are like in 12 hours then again in 24.
24 hour test:
Day 34:
Temp: 30-31 (Warmer weather pushed this up)
pH: 8
Ammonia: 0 ppm
NitrIte: 0 ppm
NitrAte: Not tested but known to be 100+ ppm
Ok, I'm officially clueless! I dont know how the nitrite disappeared so fast! Going to dose to 5 ppm and see what my levels are like in 12 hours then again in 24.
More knowledgeable guys are helping you with the cycle, its certainly looking like you're getting there, slowly but surely!
Regarding stocking, your list has a wonderful amount on variety, but I would tend to only go with one shoaling species, and have enough of them that they actually shoal.
The stocking guidelines are useful, however, there is a slight flaw, in that a 4" fish will produce far more than double the waste of a 2" fish.
Although I don't currently have a tank up and running, in the past I have successfully cared for around 30-40 cardinal tetras in a similar sized tank, with a similar bioload of mid and bottom dwellers.
I'm also a big advocate of the contraption maidenhead aquatics sell to introduce new fish. Simple, safe, and nice to use.
Good luck, and happy angling!
Regarding stocking, your list has a wonderful amount on variety, but I would tend to only go with one shoaling species, and have enough of them that they actually shoal.
The stocking guidelines are useful, however, there is a slight flaw, in that a 4" fish will produce far more than double the waste of a 2" fish.
Although I don't currently have a tank up and running, in the past I have successfully cared for around 30-40 cardinal tetras in a similar sized tank, with a similar bioload of mid and bottom dwellers.
I'm also a big advocate of the contraption maidenhead aquatics sell to introduce new fish. Simple, safe, and nice to use.
Good luck, and happy angling!
Sway said:
More knowledgeable guys are helping you with the cycle, its certainly looking like you're getting there, slowly but surely!
Regarding stocking, your list has a wonderful amount on variety, but I would tend to only go with one shoaling species, and have enough of them that they actually shoal.
The stocking guidelines are useful, however, there is a slight flaw, in that a 4" fish will produce far more than double the waste of a 2" fish.
Although I don't currently have a tank up and running, in the past I have successfully cared for around 30-40 cardinal tetras in a similar sized tank, with a similar bioload of mid and bottom dwellers.
I'm also a big advocate of the contraption maidenhead aquatics sell to introduce new fish. Simple, safe, and nice to use.
Good luck, and happy angling!
The problem is I like the different shoals too much to choose just one! I'm planning on making the hour long drive to the nearest Maidenhead soon, maybe next Sunday, so I'll check that out!Regarding stocking, your list has a wonderful amount on variety, but I would tend to only go with one shoaling species, and have enough of them that they actually shoal.
The stocking guidelines are useful, however, there is a slight flaw, in that a 4" fish will produce far more than double the waste of a 2" fish.
Although I don't currently have a tank up and running, in the past I have successfully cared for around 30-40 cardinal tetras in a similar sized tank, with a similar bioload of mid and bottom dwellers.
I'm also a big advocate of the contraption maidenhead aquatics sell to introduce new fish. Simple, safe, and nice to use.
Good luck, and happy angling!
Hysteria: Testing in 20 mins, just setting up now. But this mornings 12 hour test was ammonia 0.25ppm, nitrite off the scale, never tested nitrate. Doing all 4 tests tonight though.
I understand where you're coming from, I was exactly the same!
It's only after several very mixed community tanks I realised that 10 of a species does not a shoal make - they'll just be dotted around the tank.
Once you get 25-30 in there, they'll properly shoal, which to my mind is one of the most beautiful things you can have in a tank.
It's only after several very mixed community tanks I realised that 10 of a species does not a shoal make - they'll just be dotted around the tank.
Once you get 25-30 in there, they'll properly shoal, which to my mind is one of the most beautiful things you can have in a tank.
Sway said:
I understand where you're coming from, I was exactly the same!
It's only after several very mixed community tanks I realised that 10 of a species does not a shoal make - they'll just be dotted around the tank.
Once you get 25-30 in there, they'll properly shoal, which to my mind is one of the most beautiful things you can have in a tank.
I agree. I think it's better for fish to be kept in larger groups. For different reasons. I know when you have a smaller tank it's difficult, as it probably feels as though you are limiting yourself by having larger numbers of the same species, rather than several different ones. But you will see much better community behaviour when you keep fish in the right conditions. It's only after several very mixed community tanks I realised that 10 of a species does not a shoal make - they'll just be dotted around the tank.
Once you get 25-30 in there, they'll properly shoal, which to my mind is one of the most beautiful things you can have in a tank.
I've had a mini disaster. My pH has crashed to 5 or below due to the build up of nitrates. Hoping it wont affect the cycle too much, will perform a large water change today and redose with ammonia to try and encourage the bacteria to start multiplying again. Just when I thought it was going well!
Water changed, waiting on it heating back up. Heading out to the ice hockey!
Rescape:
TankNew by Allan.Jones, on Flickr
Night:
TankNight by Allan.Jones, on Flickr
Rescape:
TankNew by Allan.Jones, on Flickr
Night:
TankNight by Allan.Jones, on Flickr
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