Another dog advice thread...
Discussion
Some of you may know that I have 2 rescue dogs, Brook and Tia. Brook is a happy little chap, but we are having a more trying time with Tia - not problems as such but I would appreciate some advice.
She is about 4 years old, and we don't know her history other than she ended up at a rescue, went to a couple for a couple of weeks, and they returned her saying she wouldn't settle. She stayed at the rescue for another couple of months before we took her on.
Her main issue is that when she came to us she was extremely nervous. Wouldn't make eye contact, tail clamped down, etc. With lots of love and patience she has come a lot more out of her shell now, but still is a nervous dog. If someone raises their hand she cowers, if a door bang she cowers, if someone bangs on the front door she is hysterical... you get the picture. Here is a list of things she is frightened of -
Crisp packets
Cats
Plastic bottles
Tennis balls
Hoover
Strangers
Cars
Bikes
Collars
You get the idea!
I have tried some basic training with her, as due to her size she can be quite a pain when she is freaking out, and to try and increase her confidence but it's not really working. She knows sit, stay, lay down, paw etc. She hates collars, so she wears a harness, but she pulls like an absolute train, and starts leaping about if she sees something she doesn't like. If you ever try to be firm with her, she rolls on her back and just lays there! Her greetings are a bit much with us and people she knows, she jumps up and tries to pin you down and lick your face. It is our fault as when she first started doing it we were almost pleased, because she was happy, but it would be nice to be able to walk in the door without being assaulted. The trouble is (and I know I am being soft) is if I try to push her down she then cowers and thinks she has done really wrong... which she hasn't really! She wants to spend her entire time when you are sitting down, on your lap, and follows you around the house when you aren't.
Is she going to be like this forever? Am I just being a pushover? I am so wary of traumatising her further by doing the wrong thing, so any thoughts would be appreciated. I have read the complete idiots guide to positive training, but it doesn't cover much on nervous dogs.
Her on the beach - before we realised she hated collars.
She is about 4 years old, and we don't know her history other than she ended up at a rescue, went to a couple for a couple of weeks, and they returned her saying she wouldn't settle. She stayed at the rescue for another couple of months before we took her on.
Her main issue is that when she came to us she was extremely nervous. Wouldn't make eye contact, tail clamped down, etc. With lots of love and patience she has come a lot more out of her shell now, but still is a nervous dog. If someone raises their hand she cowers, if a door bang she cowers, if someone bangs on the front door she is hysterical... you get the picture. Here is a list of things she is frightened of -
Crisp packets
Cats
Plastic bottles
Tennis balls
Hoover
Strangers
Cars
Bikes
Collars
You get the idea!
I have tried some basic training with her, as due to her size she can be quite a pain when she is freaking out, and to try and increase her confidence but it's not really working. She knows sit, stay, lay down, paw etc. She hates collars, so she wears a harness, but she pulls like an absolute train, and starts leaping about if she sees something she doesn't like. If you ever try to be firm with her, she rolls on her back and just lays there! Her greetings are a bit much with us and people she knows, she jumps up and tries to pin you down and lick your face. It is our fault as when she first started doing it we were almost pleased, because she was happy, but it would be nice to be able to walk in the door without being assaulted. The trouble is (and I know I am being soft) is if I try to push her down she then cowers and thinks she has done really wrong... which she hasn't really! She wants to spend her entire time when you are sitting down, on your lap, and follows you around the house when you aren't.
Is she going to be like this forever? Am I just being a pushover? I am so wary of traumatising her further by doing the wrong thing, so any thoughts would be appreciated. I have read the complete idiots guide to positive training, but it doesn't cover much on nervous dogs.
Her on the beach - before we realised she hated collars.
Edited by Lippitt on Wednesday 26th October 16:59
Lippitt said:
Is she going to be like this forever?
Not necessarily. I've had (different) rescue dogs that came to me terrified of feathers and vacuum cleaners, respectively, amongst other things!They grew out of it as their general confidence grew, though - I didn't go out of my way to do anything to modify their fears.
Well, you can get them used to some things by introducing it slowly. For example, I got my rescue dog used to hoovers by using them for a few seconds near him, then increasing it slowly. Now I can hoover and the f**er won't move out of the way !!
The other dog I got used to the hoover by feeding her from it.
She will however also get more brave as she gets used to you and trusts you and knows you won't harm her. For example, the first time I took my rescue dog's collar, he screamed and bit me. I have no idea what people did to him when they grabbed his collar but he certainly was afraid.
In terms of bangs and pops like fireworks (rather fitting) - we have just bought a CD which we will play each night for a week beforehand and hopefully he will get used to it.
The other dog I got used to the hoover by feeding her from it.
She will however also get more brave as she gets used to you and trusts you and knows you won't harm her. For example, the first time I took my rescue dog's collar, he screamed and bit me. I have no idea what people did to him when they grabbed his collar but he certainly was afraid.
In terms of bangs and pops like fireworks (rather fitting) - we have just bought a CD which we will play each night for a week beforehand and hopefully he will get used to it.
We have had our third rescue dog Boris for 12 months now he's still hard work (very nervous of people)but now and then his true nature shines through, only for a few seconds but those few seconds makes us see what a great dog he is and what he will become eventually. Stick with it and good luck
First off, don't tell her off. My theory with nervous dogs is that when they roll into submission they are so overwhelmed with anxiety that they mentally switch off and are incapable of taking any positive learnings from what just happened. If she rolls over at any point, ignore it and don't attempt to comfort her since all that does is reinforce submissiveness.
She so wants to please you, but doesn't know how. I think the approach here is to ignore her unwanted behaviour and then reward the good. I know you want to do the best for her, but by reacting to her distress you might be reinforcing her anxiety.
When she leaps all over you as soon as you get in the door, stand with your back to her (braced against the wall if need be!) until she calms down. Move away (repeat the ignoring process if need be), let her follow you into the kitchen and sit for a treat/toy/praise. Calm, calm, calm. Low-pitched voices, please.
If she's about to leap all over someone else, distract her by calling her away then calmly praise her for coming to you.
Out and about on lead, if she reacts to something, stand on the end of the lead so she can't leap about, and completely ignore her reaction until she calms down. Then, calmly praise and move on.
As said above, the fireworks CD works wonders. Just whack it on and ignore the noise while you sit calmly with her watching TV or some such. She'll take her cues from you, and once she's become more familiar with the sounds won't be bothered by them.
I sometimes dog-sit a very excitable viszla, and while I can rein him in within a few days with the calmly praising approach, it all goes to pot when I gave him back to his owners. Lesson here being that the whole household must get behind the approach.
She so wants to please you, but doesn't know how. I think the approach here is to ignore her unwanted behaviour and then reward the good. I know you want to do the best for her, but by reacting to her distress you might be reinforcing her anxiety.
When she leaps all over you as soon as you get in the door, stand with your back to her (braced against the wall if need be!) until she calms down. Move away (repeat the ignoring process if need be), let her follow you into the kitchen and sit for a treat/toy/praise. Calm, calm, calm. Low-pitched voices, please.
If she's about to leap all over someone else, distract her by calling her away then calmly praise her for coming to you.
Out and about on lead, if she reacts to something, stand on the end of the lead so she can't leap about, and completely ignore her reaction until she calms down. Then, calmly praise and move on.
As said above, the fireworks CD works wonders. Just whack it on and ignore the noise while you sit calmly with her watching TV or some such. She'll take her cues from you, and once she's become more familiar with the sounds won't be bothered by them.
I sometimes dog-sit a very excitable viszla, and while I can rein him in within a few days with the calmly praising approach, it all goes to pot when I gave him back to his owners. Lesson here being that the whole household must get behind the approach.
Thanks for the very helpful (and hopeful!) replies. I should say (although nobosy has implied this) that we would never ever give up on her, she has a home for life, even if she is mad as a box of frogs!
Jas and Jules - I'm so glad yours has a lovely home - like you say, makes you wonder what he went through before
Re the hoover, I will definitely try the putting treats on it! She usually just jumps up on the sofa or on your lap. Luckily we are very messy so the hoover doesn't come out that much 
Mind you, she does shed a lot, so maybe if we worked on it we could hoover her......hmmm!
Tacagni - Isn't it lovely when they just relax! Tia usually shows her true nature on walks, when she is whizzing about through the fields!
MC - thanks for your detailed answer. We learnt pretty early on that telling her off is detrimental. I will admit it is very hard sometimes, I'll probably get slated as everyone on here is a perfect dog owner but sometimes when she is just being so silly... you want to shout but know it won't help! I think you hit the nail on the head with reinforcing her anxiety - I definitely don't want to be doing that, but ignoring seems very harsh when she is clearly upset. I need to woman up really, and understand its better for her in the long run. I agree when she goes into submissive or crazy mode I know she isn't learning anything, so just wait till she is calm and try again...
I'm being thick here, but when you say end of the lead do you mean the end closest to, or furthest away from her? I usually stand and wait and let her do her thing, then carry on. Have you got any tips for stopping her pulling? If you try the traditional method of stopping everytime she does it, she gets all worried and makes it worse! Do I just need to ignore that and carry on? Can't/won't use halti or anything like that.
Funnily enough fireworks are one of the few things she is ok with! Thunderstorms too. A few woofs for the really loud bangs but thats it. But accidently knock over a glass she is hysterical.... mad mutt!
Jas and Jules - I'm so glad yours has a lovely home - like you say, makes you wonder what he went through before
Re the hoover, I will definitely try the putting treats on it! She usually just jumps up on the sofa or on your lap. Luckily we are very messy so the hoover doesn't come out that much Mind you, she does shed a lot, so maybe if we worked on it we could hoover her......hmmm!Tacagni - Isn't it lovely when they just relax! Tia usually shows her true nature on walks, when she is whizzing about through the fields!
MC - thanks for your detailed answer. We learnt pretty early on that telling her off is detrimental. I will admit it is very hard sometimes, I'll probably get slated as everyone on here is a perfect dog owner
but sometimes when she is just being so silly... you want to shout but know it won't help! I think you hit the nail on the head with reinforcing her anxiety - I definitely don't want to be doing that, but ignoring seems very harsh when she is clearly upset. I need to woman up really, and understand its better for her in the long run. I agree when she goes into submissive or crazy mode I know she isn't learning anything, so just wait till she is calm and try again...I'm being thick here, but when you say end of the lead do you mean the end closest to, or furthest away from her? I usually stand and wait and let her do her thing, then carry on. Have you got any tips for stopping her pulling? If you try the traditional method of stopping everytime she does it, she gets all worried and makes it worse! Do I just need to ignore that and carry on? Can't/won't use halti or anything like that.
Funnily enough fireworks are one of the few things she is ok with! Thunderstorms too. A few woofs for the really loud bangs but thats it. But accidently knock over a glass she is hysterical.... mad mutt!
I'll take a pretty good guess that her over enthusiastic greetings are actually appeasement. She is scared.
With dogs that are as nervous as that, you need to back off completely. Every time she leaps around on the end of the lead her stress/adrenalin levels will rise. Ever time this happens they will rise further and further. Dogs in such a state CANNOT learn, so there is really no point in trying any training. Sometimes it can help if a dog knows what's expected of them in particular situations, but mostly they are too stressed to be able to hear you.
I would start by simply not exposing her - at all - to anything that she can't cope with in order to give her a chance to calm down. You could also try a DAP collar and maybe Zylkene. Works with some dogs, not others, but unlikely to do any harm as they are natural.
Once she has de-stressed, you can gradually re-introduce things, but we are literally talking one step/one second at a time. Pair the scary thing with something of high value such as roast chicken.
Hope that helps
Let us know how it goes.
With dogs that are as nervous as that, you need to back off completely. Every time she leaps around on the end of the lead her stress/adrenalin levels will rise. Ever time this happens they will rise further and further. Dogs in such a state CANNOT learn, so there is really no point in trying any training. Sometimes it can help if a dog knows what's expected of them in particular situations, but mostly they are too stressed to be able to hear you.
I would start by simply not exposing her - at all - to anything that she can't cope with in order to give her a chance to calm down. You could also try a DAP collar and maybe Zylkene. Works with some dogs, not others, but unlikely to do any harm as they are natural.
Once she has de-stressed, you can gradually re-introduce things, but we are literally talking one step/one second at a time. Pair the scary thing with something of high value such as roast chicken.
Hope that helps
Let us know how it goes.She is scared when we get home? How awful. Would love to get my hands on the person that made her like this, but that's not helping Tia now, need to concentrate on making her as happy as possible.....
Mrs Grumpy you know I always value your advice, what would you recommend we do when we get in then? If she is trying to appease then will ignoring make it worse or better?
I will definitely look into DAP - my cat is already on zylkene, so soon we will have a family of drugged up animals haha!!
I understand what you are saying about her stress levels but I don't actually think we can remove everything she is frightened of. For instance, she always runs through doors really quickly, but the fact is she has to go through one if she wants to go outside! And to get to the fields where we live, you have to do a couple of minutes on the pavement first, it's only a village so not incredibly busy but I can't guarantee she will never see a crisp packet/person/cyclist etc. And if we take her in the car somewhere, she still has to get out of the door first.... do you see what I mean? I'm not trying to be difficult, but I just don't see how it's possible that she avoids everything she is scared of. Perhaps if we concentrate on avoiding the things we definitely know stress her out that are avoidable do you think?
I probably ought to say that when I say she is 'scared' of things, she is not twisting herself inside out everytime we see them - things like cyclists do cause this reaction, but other things just seem to make her jump, she stares at them for about 10 seconds, then carrys on. So she is not completely hysterical.
Couple more pics of the mentalist.
Giant lap dog
What are you doing in the bath? Baths are horrid. Get out and cuddle me.
How awful. Would love to get my hands on the person that made her like this, but that's not helping Tia now, need to concentrate on making her as happy as possible.....Mrs Grumpy you know I always value your advice, what would you recommend we do when we get in then? If she is trying to appease then will ignoring make it worse or better?
I will definitely look into DAP - my cat is already on zylkene, so soon we will have a family of drugged up animals haha!!
I understand what you are saying about her stress levels but I don't actually think we can remove everything she is frightened of. For instance, she always runs through doors really quickly, but the fact is she has to go through one if she wants to go outside! And to get to the fields where we live, you have to do a couple of minutes on the pavement first, it's only a village so not incredibly busy but I can't guarantee she will never see a crisp packet/person/cyclist etc. And if we take her in the car somewhere, she still has to get out of the door first.... do you see what I mean? I'm not trying to be difficult, but I just don't see how it's possible that she avoids everything she is scared of. Perhaps if we concentrate on avoiding the things we definitely know stress her out that are avoidable do you think?
I probably ought to say that when I say she is 'scared' of things, she is not twisting herself inside out everytime we see them - things like cyclists do cause this reaction, but other things just seem to make her jump, she stares at them for about 10 seconds, then carrys on. So she is not completely hysterical.
Couple more pics of the mentalist.
Giant lap dog
What are you doing in the bath? Baths are horrid. Get out and cuddle me.
Sorry, I'm not ignoring you. Just having a bit of a mare with assignments, auctions, Christmas Cards and training. Plus Taffy my very damaged boy had a bad day yesterday My fault for becoming complacent. Oh well.
Once I've cleared the decks I'll do a proper reply. For now though I'll just say that dogs show stress mainly in four ways:
I think I would not give her attention until she calms down a bit, but would also teach her an appropriate greeting, such as four paws and a bum on the floor. It's easier to do this on a lead as you have more control, but maybe not if a lead over-exites her. Have someone walk slowly towards her with some special treats hidden in their hands behind their back. If she remains sitting then she gets 2 or 3 treats before they retreat. If she starts being silly, they step back until she stops, then approaches again.
I can't walk my damaged boy on the road at all as he just can't cope with it, so I have to load him up in the van every day to go somewhere quiet. The more I expose him to stuff he can't cope with, the less he is able to cope with and would then just go BANG
My fault for becoming complacent. Oh well.Once I've cleared the decks I'll do a proper reply. For now though I'll just say that dogs show stress mainly in four ways:
- Fight
- Flight
- 'Fool' about
- Fiddle
I think I would not give her attention until she calms down a bit, but would also teach her an appropriate greeting, such as four paws and a bum on the floor. It's easier to do this on a lead as you have more control, but maybe not if a lead over-exites her. Have someone walk slowly towards her with some special treats hidden in their hands behind their back. If she remains sitting then she gets 2 or 3 treats before they retreat. If she starts being silly, they step back until she stops, then approaches again.
I can't walk my damaged boy on the road at all as he just can't cope with it, so I have to load him up in the van every day to go somewhere quiet. The more I expose him to stuff he can't cope with, the less he is able to cope with and would then just go BANG
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