Need to log travel plans before leaving UK
Discussion
As someone who will be using this system, I'm in two minds about it. I'm all for the basics of what E-borders does, we have long had the problem since embarkation controls were phased out by Labour that if we allow someone in for a certain amount of time, we have no way of recording if that person leaves the country when they are meant to, the system won't make it nessescarly easier to make sure someone leaves, but at least we'll now know that they haven't, this also will mean an end to the Goverment lying about how many people from within Europe are coming here to work in underpaid and unwanted jobs.
The system will also help us keep tabs on when "certain" people travel out of the UK and when they return, it may not tell us automatically where they have been, that is what a passport is for and why it's the most important part of countering extremisim. The worry is that our senior civil servants (They are the real driving force behind e-borders, not the poor excuse of a goverment we have now) are starting to rely on computers and data recording to secure the country instead of their most important assets, the officers on the front-line who can find out more about a person by simply talking to them for a couple of minutes than "e-borders" ever could.
I also worry about the extra information that will be asked of people, that will have little or no use with regards to C/T and securing our borders, rather feed the goverments insatiably appetite for garning personal data about it citizens. It is open to abuse, systems like these need to be monitered carefully to ensure that they are being used for a clear and effective purpose and not just to control and keep tabs on innocent law-abiding citizens.
The system will also help us keep tabs on when "certain" people travel out of the UK and when they return, it may not tell us automatically where they have been, that is what a passport is for and why it's the most important part of countering extremisim. The worry is that our senior civil servants (They are the real driving force behind e-borders, not the poor excuse of a goverment we have now) are starting to rely on computers and data recording to secure the country instead of their most important assets, the officers on the front-line who can find out more about a person by simply talking to them for a couple of minutes than "e-borders" ever could.
I also worry about the extra information that will be asked of people, that will have little or no use with regards to C/T and securing our borders, rather feed the goverments insatiably appetite for garning personal data about it citizens. It is open to abuse, systems like these need to be monitered carefully to ensure that they are being used for a clear and effective purpose and not just to control and keep tabs on innocent law-abiding citizens.
Craigyp79 said:
As someone who will be using this system, I'm in two minds about it. I'm all for the basics of what E-borders does, we have long had the problem since embarkation controls were phased out by Labour that if we allow someone in for a certain amount of time, we have no way of recording if that person leaves the country when they are meant to, the system won't make it nessescarly easier to make sure someone leaves, but at least we'll now know that they haven't, this also will mean an end to the Goverment lying about how many people from within Europe are coming here to work in underpaid and unwanted jobs.
The system will also help us keep tabs on when "certain" people travel out of the UK and when they return, it may not tell us automatically where they have been, that is what a passport is for and why it's the most important part of countering extremisim. The worry is that our senior civil servants (They are the real driving force behind e-borders, not the poor excuse of a goverment we have now) are starting to rely on computers and data recording to secure the country instead of their most important assets, the officers on the front-line who can find out more about a person by simply talking to them for a couple of minutes than "e-borders" ever could.
I also worry about the extra information that will be asked of people, that will have little or no use with regards to C/T and securing our borders, rather feed the goverments insatiably appetite for garning personal data about it citizens. It is open to abuse, systems like these need to be monitered carefully to ensure that they are being used for a clear and effective purpose and not just to control and keep tabs on innocent law-abiding citizens.
I'm not sure why you are in two minds. I travel in and out of the country all year long and its very easy for them to log my movements - simply checking my passport on the way in and way out. I have no problems with that.The system will also help us keep tabs on when "certain" people travel out of the UK and when they return, it may not tell us automatically where they have been, that is what a passport is for and why it's the most important part of countering extremisim. The worry is that our senior civil servants (They are the real driving force behind e-borders, not the poor excuse of a goverment we have now) are starting to rely on computers and data recording to secure the country instead of their most important assets, the officers on the front-line who can find out more about a person by simply talking to them for a couple of minutes than "e-borders" ever could.
I also worry about the extra information that will be asked of people, that will have little or no use with regards to C/T and securing our borders, rather feed the goverments insatiably appetite for garning personal data about it citizens. It is open to abuse, systems like these need to be monitered carefully to ensure that they are being used for a clear and effective purpose and not just to control and keep tabs on innocent law-abiding citizens.
Its the onus on me to have to tell them of my movements - like I need permission or something - and the fact that I have to tell them why I am leaving the country and when I'm due back. My return is none of their business and the information is useless as it doesn't take much to come back on a different day.
If there is a £5,000 fine for not giving the information, what happens if I stay away for another week? Am I liable to a fine? Or do I have to find another arcane website to tell them that I'll be a few extra days?
And then there's the reason? For what? Does a terrorist that seeking training in another country actually put that down on their reason? Or do they just say "visiting family". What on earth does that information provide the security services?
Hence the reason I'm in two minds, e-borders was planned simply to log people in and out of the country, as far as I'm aware that's still the purpose of the system, the scare-mongering about detailed travel plans is as far as I can see wrong and the legislation that has been passed does not requires this, only your destination which is fairly obvious most of the time with what plane/ship/train your on.
Anything more is clearly unworkable, this I hope is obvious to even the most idiotic of senior civil servants and not really any use to anyone anyway (Big brother theories or not).
My opinion is that most of the story is exagerrated by the Telegraph picking and chosing facts and then writing them in a way that twists the reality of the system, I love how some people seem to trust journalists more than the goverment, both are equally capable of lying and exaggerating!
Oh and btw, the carriers (B.A. ,Eurostar, P&O etc.... ) are the ones liable for £5000 fine for non-compliance as far as I'm aware, not yourself personally, this may of course be different if you own your own boat or plane.
Anything more is clearly unworkable, this I hope is obvious to even the most idiotic of senior civil servants and not really any use to anyone anyway (Big brother theories or not).
My opinion is that most of the story is exagerrated by the Telegraph picking and chosing facts and then writing them in a way that twists the reality of the system, I love how some people seem to trust journalists more than the goverment, both are equally capable of lying and exaggerating!
Oh and btw, the carriers (B.A. ,Eurostar, P&O etc.... ) are the ones liable for £5000 fine for non-compliance as far as I'm aware, not yourself personally, this may of course be different if you own your own boat or plane.
motco said:
I am beginning to be suspicious of the motives behind the 'homecoming parades' such as the infamous one in Luton and others elsewhere. I fully support the forces in their activities, the men and women are indeed brave (if not always actual heroes), but the Iraq war itself is another matter. I suspect, cynic that I am becoming, that HMG/G.Brown is hoping that the not unnatural patriotism that many feel towards the armed forces will, somehow, be confused with support for the miltary ambitions of the government. A sort of latter-day Falklands effect. It's fine for a regiment from Aldershot, say, to be welcomed back by the locals, but why Luton? Is Luton a garrison town? I didn't think so - maybe I'm wrong. Under this lot I smell bandwagon politics everywhere.
As the regiment have been given freedom of the city previously.Eric Mc said:
Has anyone any idea what the situation would be regarding those crossing the UK's only land border?
Does travel to the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man count as "foreign" travel as they are both outside the UK?
Both the Channel Isles and the Isle of Man are within the Common Travel Area and are as such, subject to e-borders.Does travel to the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man count as "foreign" travel as they are both outside the UK?
You think it's worth writing to my labour MP?:
I think a another issue (flirted with earlier) is that the information might be used to calculate your CO2 emissions from every trip, and handily they'll have your credit card details so will be able to doc your account automatically in the name of tax gas...
- Voted very strongly against a transparent Parliament.
- Voted strongly for introducing ID cards.
- Voted very strongly for Labour's anti-terrorism laws.
- Voted very strongly for the Iraq war.
- Voted very strongly against an investigation into the Iraq war.
I think a another issue (flirted with earlier) is that the information might be used to calculate your CO2 emissions from every trip, and handily they'll have your credit card details so will be able to doc your account automatically in the name of tax gas...
Jasandjules said:
What if you don't have the internet? My Grandmother wouldn't know how to switch a PC on, if she going to have to learn how to use a PC then go to an internet cafe before she can leave the country to go on holiday now............
"Sorry Mr Immigration Twunt, I've got no email address and I don't have a credit card. As to where I'm going I'm going to Calais."
krightoffiftheythinkiamtellingthemwhereiamgoingeveryf
VxDuncan said:
You think it's worth writing to my labour MP?:
I think a another issue (flirted with earlier) is that the information might be used to calculate your CO2 emissions from every trip, and handily they'll have your credit card details so will be able to doc your account automatically in the name of tax gas...
Your MP's no1 priority is to get re-elected. Show me an MP whos isnt a self serving hypocrite, who wants to "do the right thing" then I'll show you a liar!- Voted very strongly against a transparent Parliament.
- Voted strongly for introducing ID cards.
- Voted very strongly for Labour's anti-terrorism laws.
- Voted very strongly for the Iraq war.
- Voted very strongly against an investigation into the Iraq war.
I think a another issue (flirted with earlier) is that the information might be used to calculate your CO2 emissions from every trip, and handily they'll have your credit card details so will be able to doc your account automatically in the name of tax gas...
If lots of people from your constituency were to write to him expressing thier concern and that they would only vote for a candidate who was AGAINST these things then watch then do a big old u-turn.
Think how out of touch with reality politicians must be, never had a "real" job, advised by "think tanks" that are even more out of touch (fabian society!!) They probably honestly believe we are all utterly terrified of the "terrorist threat" and actually WANT these things. They need to be told otherwise.
My local MP pretty much just tows the party line (conservative) on bigger issues like this, I would like it if she took a more active stance and asked some questions in parliment about this sort of thing. Currently her no1 task on her agenda appears to be getting the M3 resurfaced near Basingstoke, because some gormless people bought houses right by the motorway and then get upset because its a bit noisy. (never mind the weekly near death beatings that occur in the town centre).
I'm sure she gets more letters from these whiners complaining about road noise, and other comparativly petty issues than she does about larger national issues.
Pistonheads is full of atriculate, intelligent people who have strong opinions politically, will happily voice thier concerns/compaints here in the P&P but have probably never written to thier MP.
Try it. I probably write once every couple of months, sometimes I get very constructive answers, other times, not so much. but you cant whine if you've never taken 15 minutes to get in touch with your representative.
BTW www.theyworkforyou.com can give you email updates on all questions your MP asks in parliament.
ETA please excuse spelling/typos, rather hung over and have just banged this out quickly before I got and pass out on the sofa!
Edited by davido140 on Sunday 15th March 12:46
Xaero said:
Reason for leaving UK: Smuggling drugs and the police are getting close on all those murders I did...
Do they think this sort of thing is going to be written down to make catching criminals easier?
As for trip destination, well if I can't change my mind on where I go then to me that is not being free, and the only reason to live a life without liberty is to fight for liberty itself IMO.
If they are going to fine me for returning to the UK and not declaring that I changed my mind during my trip and went to Italy instead of Spain for example, then it would be simpler (and £5000 cheaper) to not return to the UK...
When I was a bum travelling in India, we had to give all this info at every hotel we stayed at. After a month or two it got tedious, so my occupation varied from child abortionist to arsonist, to prime minister, to rocket scientist, and everywhere in between. My age varied between 3 and 300. Nobody ever questioned it.Do they think this sort of thing is going to be written down to make catching criminals easier?
As for trip destination, well if I can't change my mind on where I go then to me that is not being free, and the only reason to live a life without liberty is to fight for liberty itself IMO.
If they are going to fine me for returning to the UK and not declaring that I changed my mind during my trip and went to Italy instead of Spain for example, then it would be simpler (and £5000 cheaper) to not return to the UK...
I have an idea the UK government might find some strange answers if they actually ever look at the circa 20 million replies people will give every year.
davido140 said:
VxDuncan said:
You think it's worth writing to my labour MP?:
I think a another issue (flirted with earlier) is that the information might be used to calculate your CO2 emissions from every trip, and handily they'll have your credit card details so will be able to doc your account automatically in the name of tax gas...
Your MP's no1 priority is to get re-elected. Show me an MP whos isnt a self serving hypocrite, who wants to "do the right thing" then I'll show you a liar!- Voted very strongly against a transparent Parliament.
- Voted strongly for introducing ID cards.
- Voted very strongly for Labour's anti-terrorism laws.
- Voted very strongly for the Iraq war.
- Voted very strongly against an investigation into the Iraq war.
I think a another issue (flirted with earlier) is that the information might be used to calculate your CO2 emissions from every trip, and handily they'll have your credit card details so will be able to doc your account automatically in the name of tax gas...
If lots of people from your constituency were to write to him expressing thier concern and that they would only vote for a candidate who was AGAINST these things then watch then do a big old u-turn.
Think how out of touch with reality politicians must be, never had a "real" job, advised by "think tanks" that are even more out of touch (fabian society!!) They probably honestly believe we are all utterly terrified of the "terrorist threat" and actually WANT these things. They need to be told otherwise.
My local MP pretty much just tows the party line (conservative) on bigger issues like this, I would like it if she took a more active stance and asked some questions in parliment about this sort of thing. Currently her no1 task on her agenda appears to be getting the M3 resurfaced near Basingstoke, because some gormless people bought houses right by the motorway and then get upset because its a bit noisy. (never mind the weekly near death beatings that occur in the town centre).
I'm sure she gets more letters from these whiners complaining about road noise, and other comparativly petty issues than she does about larger national issues.
Pistonheads is full of atriculate, intelligent people who have strong opinions politically, will happily voice thier concerns/compaints here in the P&P but have probably never written to thier MP.
Try it. I probably write once every couple of months, sometimes I get very constructive answers, other times, not so much. but you cant whine if you've never taken 15 minutes to get in touch with your representative.
BTW www.theyworkforyou.com can give you email updates on all questions your MP asks in parliament.
ETA please excuse spelling/typos, rather hung over and have just banged this out quickly before I got and pass out on the sofa!
Edited by davido140 on Sunday 15th March 12:46
VxDuncan said:
You think it's worth writing to my labour MP?:
I think a another issue (flirted with earlier) is that the information might be used to calculate your CO2 emissions from every trip, and handily they'll have your credit card details so will be able to doc your account automatically in the name of tax gas...
WFT is a 'strong vote'? If two MPS vote strongly in favour and one votes Very Strongly against, who wins? Imbeciles, the lot of them.- Voted very strongly against a transparent Parliament.
- Voted strongly for introducing ID cards.
- Voted very strongly for Labour's anti-terrorism laws.
- Voted very strongly for the Iraq war.
- Voted very strongly against an investigation into the Iraq war.
I think a another issue (flirted with earlier) is that the information might be used to calculate your CO2 emissions from every trip, and handily they'll have your credit card details so will be able to doc your account automatically in the name of tax gas...
I am assuming thi is direced at thos emaking their way to Afghanistn etc? I assume that if you say you are off to buy porn in Amsterdam and then get caught in fancy dress with a RPG in the foothills of pakistan it wil count against you when you try and claim you were visiting a sick aunt.
davido140 said:
.....Pistonheads is full of atriculate, intelligent people who have strong opinions politically, will happily voice thier concerns/compaints here in the P&P but have probably never written to thier MP.
Try it. I probably write once every couple of months, sometimes I get very constructive answers, other times, not so much. but you cant whine if you've never taken 15 minutes to get in touch with your representative.
BTW www.theyworkforyou.com can give you email updates on all questions your MP asks in parliament.
ETA please excuse spelling/typos, rather hung over and have just banged this out quickly before I got and pass out on the sofa!
I wrote to my MP, Dave Kidney, three weeks ago, asking he do his best to scupper the latest information sharing plots the gubbernment are brewing. Turns out he had already voiced his opinions in parliament and the bill was being re-written.Try it. I probably write once every couple of months, sometimes I get very constructive answers, other times, not so much. but you cant whine if you've never taken 15 minutes to get in touch with your representative.
BTW www.theyworkforyou.com can give you email updates on all questions your MP asks in parliament.
ETA please excuse spelling/typos, rather hung over and have just banged this out quickly before I got and pass out on the sofa!
In fact I've written to him several times, about several subjects, and he probably agrees with my views 50% of the time and is already taking action.
He does, however, fall flat on his face with regard to the VED increases for carbon dioxide, and appears to believe we are indeed all going to die in a few years unless we pay massive taxes to cure the MMGW dilema.
VxDuncan said:
You think it's worth writing to my labour MP?:
I think a another issue (flirted with earlier) is that the information might be used to calculate your CO2 emissions from every trip, and handily they'll have your credit card details so will be able to doc your account automatically in the name of tax gas...
Did you vote at the last local elections?- Voted very strongly against a transparent Parliament.
- Voted strongly for introducing ID cards.
- Voted very strongly for Labour's anti-terrorism laws.
- Voted very strongly for the Iraq war.
- Voted very strongly against an investigation into the Iraq war.
I think a another issue (flirted with earlier) is that the information might be used to calculate your CO2 emissions from every trip, and handily they'll have your credit card details so will be able to doc your account automatically in the name of tax gas...
Thankfully the guy I voted for got in PHEW!
Voted for a transparent Parliament.
Voted moderately for introducing a smoking ban.
Voted strongly against introducing ID cards.
Voted very strongly against introducing foundation hospitals.
Voted strongly against introducing student top-up fees.
Voted very strongly against Labour's anti-terrorism laws.
Voted very strongly against the Iraq war.
Voted very strongly for an investigation into the Iraq war.
Have just sent him an email regarding this e-boarders effort.
Edited to add your local MP sounds like a complete See you next tuesday. Is an assassination attempt possible?
Edited by Alfachick on Sunday 15th March 13:44
elster said:
motco said:
I am beginning to be suspicious of the motives behind the 'homecoming parades' such as the infamous one in Luton and others elsewhere. I fully support the forces in their activities, the men and women are indeed brave (if not always actual heroes), but the Iraq war itself is another matter. I suspect, cynic that I am becoming, that HMG/G.Brown is hoping that the not unnatural patriotism that many feel towards the armed forces will, somehow, be confused with support for the miltary ambitions of the government. A sort of latter-day Falklands effect. It's fine for a regiment from Aldershot, say, to be welcomed back by the locals, but why Luton? Is Luton a garrison town? I didn't think so - maybe I'm wrong. Under this lot I smell bandwagon politics everywhere.
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