Conspiracy theorists... are they all just a bit thick?
Discussion
Chromegrill said:
My bad, I meant "May to December", not March. Regardless, the period when particular concern was raised about the numbers of unvaccinated people in intensive care was the latter half of 2021. During those six months, anyone aged 18 and over could already have had at least one COVID vaccine yet unvaccinated patients made up the majority of admissions to ICU over that period, and during only one month out of those six were slightly more vaccinated patients admitted than vaccinated. Please can you point me to whichever ICNARC report that you refer to above in your claim that there were more unvaccinated patients than vaccinated in ICU during that period?
...
I really don't recall in mid 2021 saying young people should still have the AZ vaccine. After all, UK guidance had restricted from general use in people under 30 in early April 2021 and those under 40 the following month. Could you remind me what I actually said?
...
I really don't recall in mid 2021 saying young people should still have the AZ vaccine. After all, UK guidance had restricted from general use in people under 30 in early April 2021 and those under 40 the following month. Could you remind me what I actually said?
This is a graph from the ICNARC Jan22 report here. It shows - ICU patient admissions at just over half being unvaccinated and general hospital admissions being perhaps 10-15%.
The concerns and general messaging from the authorities however was that it was almost all unvaccinated clogging up hospitals full stop not just as per your above post that 'they made up the majority in ICU'. That messaging was clearly at odds with what the data was and had been showing for months.
On the 2nd point - Elysium in the other thread had put up a link to an older thread where you did say the below in June 2021 which was not entirely true depending on age:
""Bottom line is that the vaccines in use are safe and effective and before vaccination people are assessed to ensure they can safely be vaccinated with the appropriate vaccine. If you really want to know what it feels like to suffer a blood clot, catch COVID since most people have a much greater risk of blood clots from COVID than they will from any of the vaccines against COVID.""
however... I do concede my memory wasn't what it was and had mistakenly thought that you and Prof.Prolapse were saying the same thing wrt to the AZN vaccine (he for example claimed that it was 'debunked' that ViTT was caused by the AZN vaccine which it rather obviously was not). You were mainly only arguing for the mRNA vaccines in the year so my bad in including the AZN one in that on your part.
However I do put my earlier question to you (which I don't think you did answer) again with somewhat more precision - do you still think that urging those who were healthy and under age 25-30 years to get that 2nd mRNA jab/booster was the right thing to have done in the latter half of 2021/early 2022? Especially as it was becoming very clear by mid 2021 that the vaccine would only provide a fairly time limited period of infection immunity given the age related vaccine risk for them and a lot of that group would long ago have got infected as well.
Tankrizzo - well that was rather unexpected. I don't know if what I believe about covid is quite as different as you might think even if what I believe about the government/public health response is clearly at odds with the likes of chromegrill do but I suppose no one is going to change their minds about that very much at this stage.
As far as the oddballs are concerned, well there certainly are some (drunk or otherwise) and while I might not have a particularly good opinion of some of those even if they are nominally on 'my side', I'd like to think my opinion of them would mirror what you think of some of the more strident posters here on this thread on 'your side'.
paulguitar said:
Mistrust of authority seems to be a big part of it.
I'm pretty shaken up today. One of my cousins, with whom I was very close as a kid, has taken his own life. He turned into a huge conspiracy theorist during COVID and became very withdrawn. None of us saw this coming. I strongly suspect the conspiracy stuff had a lot to do with it.
Thats awful news, so sorry to hear that. Condolences. I'm pretty shaken up today. One of my cousins, with whom I was very close as a kid, has taken his own life. He turned into a huge conspiracy theorist during COVID and became very withdrawn. None of us saw this coming. I strongly suspect the conspiracy stuff had a lot to do with it.
paulguitar said:
Mistrust of authority seems to be a big part of it.
I'm pretty shaken up today. One of my cousins, with whom I was very close as a kid, has taken his own life. He turned into a huge conspiracy theorist during COVID and became very withdrawn. None of us saw this coming. I strongly suspect the conspiracy stuff had a lot to do with it.
That's awful, really sorry to hear that.I'm pretty shaken up today. One of my cousins, with whom I was very close as a kid, has taken his own life. He turned into a huge conspiracy theorist during COVID and became very withdrawn. None of us saw this coming. I strongly suspect the conspiracy stuff had a lot to do with it.
Who_Goes_Blue said:
LF5335 said:
Should I ask the mods to rename this “Another Covid thread Vol 5984583920”
Please, please, please. Stop engaging with them, or this thread will be dead, just as the Covid nutters want it to be.
or "We want to sling sPlease, please, please. Stop engaging with them, or this thread will be dead, just as the Covid nutters want it to be.
t at people but dont want to be challenged on it"If you want to talk the behaviours and psychology of conspiracy theorists and why they do what they do, then fine, otherwise COVID chat belongs in the COVID thread. In the same way I wouldn't be talking about BMWs in the Porsche threads or my favourite books or radio shows in the Netflix thread.
Edited by coldel on Thursday 25th April 11:06
Bill said:
paulguitar said:
Mistrust of authority seems to be a big part of it.
I'm pretty shaken up today. One of my cousins, with whom I was very close as a kid, has taken his own life. He turned into a huge conspiracy theorist during COVID and became very withdrawn. None of us saw this coming. I strongly suspect the conspiracy stuff had a lot to do with it.
That's awful, really sorry to hear that.I'm pretty shaken up today. One of my cousins, with whom I was very close as a kid, has taken his own life. He turned into a huge conspiracy theorist during COVID and became very withdrawn. None of us saw this coming. I strongly suspect the conspiracy stuff had a lot to do with it.
My thoughts are with you and your family.
Depression to the point that you seek to take your own life is a terrible time, not only for the sufferer but also, of course, for those left behind.
paulguitar said:
Mistrust of authority seems to be a big part of it.
I'm pretty shaken up today. One of my cousins, with whom I was very close as a kid, has taken his own life. He turned into a huge conspiracy theorist during COVID and became very withdrawn. None of us saw this coming. I strongly suspect the conspiracy stuff had a lot to do with it.
Had the authorities taken a more pragmatic and sensible approach to Covid do you think it would have taken less of a mental health toll on your cousin?I'm pretty shaken up today. One of my cousins, with whom I was very close as a kid, has taken his own life. He turned into a huge conspiracy theorist during COVID and became very withdrawn. None of us saw this coming. I strongly suspect the conspiracy stuff had a lot to do with it.
This is the whole argument about how we overreacted, that we created huge amounts of fear and anxiety for the whole nation, for such a relatively minor virus for the majority, with no consideration for the long term mental issues that would be created. And we are unfortunately seeing these negative outcomes more and more regularly. The blame squarely lies with the those making the decisions on this!
And on the mistrust of authorities, below is what Chris Whitty said about Omicron in December 2021
"This is a really serious threat at the moment. The how big a threat - there are several things we don't know, but all the things that we do know, are bad,"
They bring it on themselves and you should be calling them out for it rather than celebrating them. Then there may not be the mistrust....
Edited by Ashfordian on Thursday 25th April 11:25
coldel said:
Who_Goes_Blue said:
LF5335 said:
Should I ask the mods to rename this “Another Covid thread Vol 5984583920”
Please, please, please. Stop engaging with them, or this thread will be dead, just as the Covid nutters want it to be.
or "We want to sling sPlease, please, please. Stop engaging with them, or this thread will be dead, just as the Covid nutters want it to be.
t at people but dont want to be challenged on it"If you want to talk the behaviours and psychology of conspiracy theorists and why they do what they do, then fine, otherwise COVID chat belongs in the COVID thread. In the same way I wouldn't be talking about BMWs in the Porsche threads or my favourite books or radio shows in the Netflix thread.
Edited by coldel on Thursday 25th April 11:06
PurplePenguin said:
To discuss the psychology of conspiracy theorists, surely by definition you have to discuss the conspiracy theory? (and that includes covid)
Not at all. The behaviours and psychology is pretty consistent across all conspiracies, its why often you see that people don't just go for one, there are usually quite a few. The content is largely irrelevant. And those same psychological profiles and behaviours have been pretty consistent over time. COVID happens to be the most recent one, in ten years time it will be largely forgotten and it will be the next set, but the behaviours and psychological makeup of who and why they are pushed so arduously is always the same. Ashfordian said:
paulguitar said:
Mistrust of authority seems to be a big part of it.
I'm pretty shaken up today. One of my cousins, with whom I was very close as a kid, has taken his own life. He turned into a huge conspiracy theorist during COVID and became very withdrawn. None of us saw this coming. I strongly suspect the conspiracy stuff had a lot to do with it.
Had the authorities taken a more pragmatic and sensible approach to Covid do you think it would have taken less of a mental health toll on your cousin?I'm pretty shaken up today. One of my cousins, with whom I was very close as a kid, has taken his own life. He turned into a huge conspiracy theorist during COVID and became very withdrawn. None of us saw this coming. I strongly suspect the conspiracy stuff had a lot to do with it.
This is the whole argument about how we overreacted, that we created huge amounts of fear and anxiety for the whole nation, for such a relatively minor virus for the majority, with no consideration for the long term mental issues that would be created. And we are unfortunately seeing these negative outcomes more and more regularly. The blame squarely lies with the those making the decisions on this!
And on the mistrust of authorities, below is what Chris Whitty said about Omicron in December 2021
"This is a really serious threat at the moment. The how big a threat - there are several things we don't know, but all the things that we do know, are bad,"
They bring it on themselves and you should be calling them out for it rather than celebrating them. Then there may not be the mistrust....
Edited by Ashfordian on Thursday 25th April 11:25
t theory to the next, pedalling their fearmongering for what? The greater good?If the “authorities” over reacted, the f
kwit conspiracy community practically frothed themselves into oblivion at the chance to create even more uncertainty, in an already volatile situation.andyeds1234 said:
In the meantime, there are the conspiracy theorists who veer wildly from one horsest theory to the next, pedalling their fearmongering for what? The greater good?
If the “authorities” over reacted, the fkwit conspiracy community practically frothed themselves into oblivion at the chance to create even more uncertainty, in an already volatile situation.
Below is just a small selection of ft theory to the next, pedalling their fearmongering for what? The greater good?If the “authorities” over reacted, the f
kwit conspiracy community practically frothed themselves into oblivion at the chance to create even more uncertainty, in an already volatile situation.kwittery examples from the authorities. - They closed children's playgrounds but kept garden centres open.
- You could order coffee from a coffee shop counter but not order a beer from a pub bar.
- The WHO said Covid was not transmissible from human to human
The above nonsense and lies feeds the conspiracy community.
You would be taken seriously with your outrage if you called out both sides...
coldel said:
PurplePenguin said:
To discuss the psychology of conspiracy theorists, surely by definition you have to discuss the conspiracy theory? (and that includes covid)
Not at all. The behaviours and psychology is pretty consistent across all conspiracies, its why often you see that people don't just go for one, there are usually quite a few. The content is largely irrelevant. And those same psychological profiles and behaviours have been pretty consistent over time. COVID happens to be the most recent one, in ten years time it will be largely forgotten and it will be the next set, but the behaviours and psychological makeup of who and why they are pushed so arduously is always the same. This thread essentially stagnates - if you assert the above, then any further discussion is pointless - you might as well just make this thread a “sticky”?
PurplePenguin said:
coldel said:
PurplePenguin said:
To discuss the psychology of conspiracy theorists, surely by definition you have to discuss the conspiracy theory? (and that includes covid)
Not at all. The behaviours and psychology is pretty consistent across all conspiracies, its why often you see that people don't just go for one, there are usually quite a few. The content is largely irrelevant. And those same psychological profiles and behaviours have been pretty consistent over time. COVID happens to be the most recent one, in ten years time it will be largely forgotten and it will be the next set, but the behaviours and psychological makeup of who and why they are pushed so arduously is always the same. This thread essentially stagnates - if you assert the above, then any further discussion is pointless - you might as well just make this thread a “sticky”?
Notch 8 said:
More CTist rubbish on FB, which has got around 1.5k ‘likes’.
How the numbers of the gullible are stacking up.
You aren't talking thousands, there are millions of them.How the numbers of the gullible are stacking up.
The meme is a good example though, like all CTs it's grounded in enough truth to convince "enquiring minds". We are all programmed, it starts at an early age, we are taught right from wrong (this lesson gets skipped by some), then basic laws - how to get through an average day without ending up in trouble, before eventually ending up with not questioning tax and thinking we need the latest shiny thing and it's normal to get in to debt and pay interest to own it even though we will have moved on to the next shiny thing before we pay this one off.
It's the price of living the way we do, I don't really want to live in a cave, shiny things are nice and I don't get to do any of it if I'm in prison. So we are programmed. And there are no doubt some lunatics at the top who would love to be in control of a subservient human race.
But the key point that stops you being a wibbling loon is appreciating that what you take to be world leaders and governments doing evil things, is mostly just them being incompetent, sometimes corrupt but generally trying to do the right thing (ISH) and failing.
As much as we would all like to blame someone else for not being millionaire playboys with a string of beautiful lovers, it isn't an evil cabal trying to keep us down. It's us.
PurplePenguin said:
Notch 8 said:
More CTist rubbish on FB, which has got around 1.5k ‘likes’.
How the numbers of the gullible are stacking up.
Do you go looking for this stuff under the guise of research? How the numbers of the gullible are stacking up.
I don’t think the cats of Facebook videos will be worried about 1.5k “likes” …..
Boringvolvodriver said:
PurplePenguin said:
coldel said:
PurplePenguin said:
To discuss the psychology of conspiracy theorists, surely by definition you have to discuss the conspiracy theory? (and that includes covid)
Not at all. The behaviours and psychology is pretty consistent across all conspiracies, its why often you see that people don't just go for one, there are usually quite a few. The content is largely irrelevant. And those same psychological profiles and behaviours have been pretty consistent over time. COVID happens to be the most recent one, in ten years time it will be largely forgotten and it will be the next set, but the behaviours and psychological makeup of who and why they are pushed so arduously is always the same. This thread essentially stagnates - if you assert the above, then any further discussion is pointless - you might as well just make this thread a “sticky”?
Yes COVID the virus was a real thing, no one is denying that. But, people obsessively trying to convince others in an almost religious type way, quoting snapshots of data thinking it explains a massively complex situation, a lot of it often out of context, then leaping straight to 'Big Pharma' and they are all out to get us/take our money/take our freedoms etc, quite simply isn't a real thing and bears the hallmarks of the aforementioned type.
And yes the thread does often stagnate, but thats ok. I like to talk about the psychology of why a CT becomes almost obsessive in their day to day around conspiracies, others on here like to talk about other aspects. Now, I wonder if the same could be said of the other threads? That if they stagnated would that be allowed or would certain individuals continue to post more of the same over and over...
Edited by coldel on Thursday 25th April 12:32
Edited by coldel on Thursday 25th April 12:32
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