Private schools, times a changing?

[u-boat]

cheesejunkie said:

My limited outlook thinks you're full of st for suggesting I have issues, but you're entitled to that view and I would not remove your entitlement. I strongly think you'd remove my entitlement to my view if you could.

Now, which bit of the above was bullst?

This bit really.

You’ve got issues about not going to private school or a resentment of those that did and I have no interest in removing any of your unfair advantages, or anything you have, as unlike you, I know that any feelings of inadequacy I have are entirely my own fault and not someone else’s.

I also know that if your, or anyone else’s advantage (real or perceived) was removed, it wouldn’t make me any happier.

[akirk]

Tom8 said:

gareth h said:

Just for clarification what is the difference between pay in the state and private school sectors?
The reason I ask, is having been exposed to both the difference in application, approach and professionalism is stark, and I wonder whether teachers from the private sector who become jobless will move to the state system, or simply change career, resulting in the UK education system losing some of the best teaching talent.

There is a premium usually. Don't know for definite but a few grand. There is the professional benefit of teaching smaller classes, better behaved and motivated kids with motivated parents. In boarding schools there are accommodation benefits too.

Having been a governor in both sectors - there is surprisingly little difference in actual pay bands.
Private schools though do tend to offer perks which the state sector can't offer - some examples:
- most have a decent sports centre and offer the use of that free of charge to staff (saves gym membership costs)
- reduction on school fees for staff children (can be worth quite a lot)
- accommodation - esp. for new staff etc.
- wider variety of trips for children - some staff enjoy taking 100+ teenagers away!
- better resources for teaching
- better facilities for teaching / extra-curricular
- more extra-curricular - if teacher have a passion for e.g. geology / robotics / etc. - I have a friend who teaches fly-fishing at his school
- often better food for lunch
- etc.

not sure that you can fully extrapolate quality of teacher from school...
- plenty of examples in the private sector of staff who coast
- plenty of examples of staff in the state sector who believe in state education and teach there as a principle even though they might be better / more intelligent / more capable than their private sector equivalents...

[okgo]

The education and calibre of staff we’ve seen at the private offerings around here has been impressive. Many hugely qualified people passionate about their subjects. The two state schools we saw didn’t give off the same vibe.

The pay on offer is also good, and at more senior levels I would bet on it eclipsing the state sector. The head of one of the schools was making much more than a prime ministers salary, and of course has grace and favour house worth £5m quid! Can’t be all bad. Not sure the state is matching that.

[cheesejunkie]

u-boat said:

cheesejunkie said:

My limited outlook thinks you're full of st for suggesting I have issues, but you're entitled to that view and I would not remove your entitlement. I strongly think you'd remove my entitlement to my view if you could.

Now, which bit of the above was bullst?

This bit really.

You’ve got issues about not going to private school or a resentment of those that did and I have no interest in removing any of your unfair advantages, or anything you have, as unlike you, I know that any feelings of inadequacy I have are entirely my own fault and not someone else’s.

I also know that if your, or anyone else’s advantage (real or perceived) was removed, it wouldn’t make me any happier.

I like that answer.

Don't feel inadequate, you can't all be like me. (Now I'm seriously over stretching the joke).

I remember my youngest brother's teacher's review. He'd be terrifying if he used his brain but he doesn't. I like that kind of attitude. My parents didn't.

He's now educating people and regularly having to deal with people who think they can fool him with AI written reports. Heaven help them, they've no chance. He's a product of a public education and educating privately funded children.

I don't have issues about not going to private school and I don't have any resentment. Don't project any issues onto me and lay off the name calling. I have issues, but they're not one of them. My heart rate does not increase when I argue against wealth based privileges.

[beagrizzly]

akirk said:

not sure that you can fully extrapolate quality of teacher from school...
- plenty of examples in the private sector of staff who coast
- plenty of examples of staff in the state sector who believe in state education and teach there as a principle even though they might be better / more intelligent / more capable than their private sector equivalents...

I'd wholeheartedly agree with that (though can only really base my opinion on my own experiences).

My own alma mater was a supposedly/probably very good independent school which had a mix of awesome teachers, bloody awful teachers, and all sorts in between.

My kids school - state secondary - has a mix of awesome teachers, bloody awful teachers, and all sorts in between.

I have known state teachers who wouldn't dream of entering the private sector on general principle, whereas others aspire to do exactly that for various reasons of their own - often including taking a break from disruptive kids of which there are arguably fewer in the private sector.

On the subject of crap teachers - and this was a long time ago, and hopefully this couldn't/wouldn't happen today - we had an old duffer of a history teacher who managed somehow to teach the wrong curriculum for GCSE history. Outcome - nobody in my year got above a 'C', in a school that was supposedly among the best in the region and prided itself on its results; compensation for affected families, and early retirement for the teacher.

[cheesejunkie]

beagrizzly said:

akirk said:

not sure that you can fully extrapolate quality of teacher from school...
- plenty of examples in the private sector of staff who coast
- plenty of examples of staff in the state sector who believe in state education and teach there as a principle even though they might be better / more intelligent / more capable than their private sector equivalents...

I'd wholeheartedly agree with that (though can only really base my opinion on my own experiences).

My own alma mater was a supposedly/probably very good independent school which had a mix of awesome teachers, bloody awful teachers, and all sorts in between.

My kids school - state secondary - has a mix of awesome teachers, bloody awful teachers, and all sorts in between.

I have known state teachers who wouldn't dream of entering the private sector on general principle, whereas others aspire to do exactly that for various reasons of their own - often including taking a break from disruptive kids of which there are arguably fewer in the private sector.

On the subject of crap teachers - and this was a long time ago, and hopefully this couldn't/wouldn't happen today - we had an old duffer of a history teacher who managed somehow to teach the wrong curriculum for GCSE history. Outcome - nobody in my year got above a 'C', in a school that was supposedly among the best in the region and prided itself on its results; compensation for affected families, and early retirement for the teacher.

The only C I've ever had in my life was due to a geography teacher who taught us too much without focussing on the curriculum. Meanwhile the useless teacher next door did and had more successful examination results.

I don't regret that looking back but I was bloody annoyed at the time. Although my knowledge of rivers has yet to prove useful I'm glad I've tramped down one with the corduroy wearing ex rugger bugger telling us about each stage.

Good teachers will always be good teachers. I can understand why some get pissed off with the hoops they're made to jump through. A best mate is a head teacher and his phone is always ringing. My job's hard to switch off from but it's not that bad where I get angry parents thinking I should give a st on my time off.

ETA, same geography teacher threw a duster at my head on multiple occasions, they weren't a good shot and never hit although I have been given the occasional warm ear, has lifted me off my feet calling me a chancer, and gave me a bad school review. I don't have to be popular with teachers to like them.

Edited by cheesejunkie on Wednesday 20th March 12:40

[WindyCommon]

I spoke with a governor of an independent school yesterday evening. He suggested that teaching costs might be separated from other costs (eg sports provision) and invoiced for separately. VAT would not apply to certain cost categories. An independent school employing classroom teachers who are also involved in running sports clubs/teams etc may be able to allocate teacher salaries between categories. Net effect would be that VAT would be applied only to part of the costs invoiced to parents. Combined with fewer bursary places etc the overall impact may be more manageable than some are hoping, sorry expecting.

[turbobloke]

akirk said:

not sure that you can fully extrapolate quality of teacher from school...
- plenty of examples in the private sector of staff who coast
- plenty of examples of staff in the state sector who believe in state education and teach there as a principle even though they might be better / more intelligent / more capable than their private sector equivalents...

I agree with the agreements, particularly in terms of impact for academically average pupils, however for the less and the more academically able, the state sector has had some serious problems, and still does. There were some shocking findings just over a decade ago in terms of more academically able pupils.

See Ofsted's resesarch findings back in 2013 at pdf pagination 5/35 at this (pdf) link. It compares and contrasts non-selective state schools with selective state schools and indepedent schools. I recommend taking two mins to read p5/35, and antthing else!

The most able students - Are they doing as well as they should in our non-selective secondary schools?
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a8...

The risk of imposing VAT is (as pointed out) fewer bursaries, possibly fewer scholarships too, such that those able pupils, important for the nation if they can be persuaded to hang around, will be the first to be forced back in the state sector...looking at the wider picture, China has a greater number of able pupils than we have pupils in total.

There was an update to this research, showing disapointingly slow improvement.

[EmBe]

turbobloke said:

I agree with the agreements, particularly in terms of impact for academically average pupils, however for the less and the more academically able, the state sector has had some serious problems, and still does.

That's the big difference we've noticed.

My daughter's state school couldn't discuss her dyslexia enough when she was first diagnosed in Y1 and they were able to get a pupil premium for her. They were less keen to discuss how they might use that money to actually help her with her dyslexia - we had to push and push to get her even the most basic help, had we not done so they would have done precisely nothing.
In the 3 years she was there, she fell further and further behind because her dyslexia meant she couldn't access learning resources very easily, she's also regularly hospitalised owing to health issues and found it impossible to catch up because she would just be given a pile of stuff to read.
We wrote to the head, the governors, the Education authority and others who all made promises they promptly forgot or distanced themselves from.

Because of that, and many other reasons we've moved her to private school and according to the 4 page progress report sent to us this morning by her SEN teacher she "is making excellent progress in reading (standardised score previously 81 – now 95)"

The other issue is discipline - it took her old school 4 years to exclude a boy who disrupted every class he was in and, among many other things put another boy in hospital and sexually assaulted a girl on school premises. In contrast, a disruptive girl in her current year was caught vaping, being in town during lesson times and other low-level misdemeanours and after 6 months of no improvement, she was kicked out.

There are some dedicated and truly outstanding teachers in the state system - we found one in my daughter's Y3 form teacher who did all she could but was pushing against the system, and ultimately could do very little to make a lasting change (and subsequently left the year after my daughter did to... work in the private sector). She and my wife still meet up regularly with the kids in the school holidays and despairs about the state of education at the moment.

Our resident private school polemicist Cheesy still hasn't addressed the point that if many thousands of dedicated parents with children in the state sector and their teachers haven't managed to improve these things, then how will an influx of a few hundred more parents make any difference?

We tried - the system beat us. fk the system, it failed my daughter and as a result I took her out before it could do any more damage. We'll find a way to keep her out, whatever it takes.

Charging VAT won't change anything in the state system, but it throws a bone to the intolerant left.

Edited by EmBe on Wednesday 20th March 15:24

[cheesejunkie]

Who are this intolerant left Embe? I see quite a bit of intolerance on this thread, it's not coming from the left. I'm clued in enough to know artificial outrage and labelling of people with different views.

I'm not buying what you're selling. I think you're showing more intolerance.

Polemicist? I'll take that compliment.

I have addressed how being able to bypass a system removes your involvement in it. I've addressed that the ability to avoid it based on wealth is a fact of life but defending it is a choice that some are lacking in self awareness of supporting their own privilege on. I've commented that there's a difference between working the system and defending it. I've never suggested removing VAT will be a panacea to the educational problems but I have suggested the small number of people who'll be badly affected by it will now learn to live with the same problems as others and might get annoyed enough to address inequalities. If this thread was representative (it isn't) it looks like they won't and they'd rather whinge about removal of privilege by pretending it's making the world less equal to disallow better educational opportunities if you have a few quid. It's 20%, it's VAT, why should it be funded by other people?

I'm not the person who's out to remove that privilege, but I'm happy to be painted with that target. Polemicist, lol.

[otolith]

cheesejunkie said:

I have suggested the small number of people who'll be badly affected by it will now learn to live with the same problems as others and might get annoyed enough to address inequalities.

It's not clear to me what power they are believed to have to do this?

[EmBe]

otolith said:

cheesejunkie said:

I have suggested the small number of people who'll be badly affected by it will now learn to live with the same problems as others and might get annoyed enough to address inequalities.

It's not clear to me what power they are believed to have to do this?

It's a secret one that only Cheesy knows about.

[EmBe]

cheesejunkie said:

Who are this intolerant left Embe? I see quite a bit of intolerance on this thread, it's not coming from the left. I'm clued in enough to know artificial outrage and labelling of people with different views.

I was specifically referring to the rump of cranks and Corbynites that so vociferously complain that Starmer 'ain't no socialist', but if you want to wear the label too, you go right ahead poppet.

Edited by EmBe on Wednesday 20th March 16:26

[popegregory]

gareth h said:

Just for clarification what is the difference between pay in the state and private school sectors?
The reason I ask, is having been exposed to both the difference in application, approach and professionalism is stark, and I wonder whether teachers from the private sector who become jobless will move to the state system, or simply change career, resulting in the UK education system losing some of the best teaching talent.

With respect, it wouldn’t be losing the best teaching talent by a long way, and out of work private school teachers would be presumably concerned when they found they had to try and get jobs in environments they really didn’t understand or have the tools to work in.

[cheesejunkie]

otolith said:

cheesejunkie said:

I have suggested the small number of people who'll be badly affected by it will now learn to live with the same problems as others and might get annoyed enough to address inequalities.

It's not clear to me what power they are believed to have to do this?

Weight of public opinion. But that's a lefty notion and we should all look out for ourselves rather than collective responsibility .

I'm no Corbyn fan, very much not a Corbyn fan. But I'm amused to be called a lefty for suggesting I don't want to pay for someone else's children. Damn socialists, always wanting someone else to pay for them.

[cheesejunkie]

u-boat said:

So public opinion hasn’t been enough to improve state schools but if some more people can’t afford private schools (you’ve said yourself hardly any will leave) and join the state sector then that will be enough to make changes?

It’s a numbers thing then not anything to do with the wealth or influence of those that can no longer afford private schools?

You’re saying this positive change that hasn’t been possible with the current state school parents will come about from forcing some people out of the private school sector?

Forcing? Is that the way you look at it? I'm not suggesting forcing anybody, they can still chose to pay.

Public opinion has not been enough to improve state schools. That does not justify those reliant on public school education subsidising those who don't. A VAT cut is a subsidy, but some get very uncomfortable looking at it that way. Paying VAT is removing a subsidy, keep dancing but it is. Weepy sad stories about people who would not have done as well if someone wasn't subsidising their education whilst the rich were ignoring how bad the rest of the system is will never break my heart. I've wrote this sentence many times, it's not a complicated position. But I'll add this time that I won't fall for people trying to make it complicated when the fundamental principals are easy to understand and I'll repeat eyes on the prize, I'm happy to debate a load of nonsense but I'll not lose sight of the fact that some are telling me they should have tax breaks that others don't have.

[M1AGM]

You keep banging on about the 'small number' who will be affected. Do you have anything other than your own bias to back up that claim?

The ISC had a report done that said the fallout from VAT on fees will end up costing taxpayers over £400 million a year by year 5, because a lot of small schools will have to close and a lot of parents will have to pull out of the private sector. There will need to be more schools built and more teachers recruited (which will have to come from abroad because we dont have enough teachers now). I get that your own bias wont understand the concept of not everyone at private school being wealthy but thats the reality.

[youngsyr]

Has anyone seen any research on the ratio of state and privately educated individuals in the leading positions in our country?

From my own experience in the City, it seems to me that a private school education is a pre-requisite for high level posts in investment banks and many professional firms.

Ditto for politics.

And I suspect that is what people are really paying for private education for. After all, you can't teach intelligence.

[akirk]

cheesejunkie said:

I've addressed that the ability to avoid it based on wealth is a fact of life but defending it is a choice that some are lacking in self awareness of supporting their own privilege on.

Except that you have conveniently ignored the fact that wealth is not the only basis for identifying private school parents - as previously posted, while there will always be some wealthy parents, a large % of private school parents simply do not fall into that category - they run broken down cars / eschew holidays / even compromise on the food they buy to scrape together the money to send their child to a private school - very often because (as above) the state system they have already paid for is failing their child(ren).

Many more are paid for by scholarships / bursaries / grandparents / etc. The % of private school pupils where the parents are wealthy and are fully paying the fees out of taxed income is surprisingly small.

I appreciate that this is not as widely known as it should be - but anyone involved in running schools in that sector will be fully cognisant of the pattern of wealth / lack of wealth - go and talk to a bursar!

cheesejunkie said:

But I'm amused to be called a lefty for suggesting I don't want to pay for someone else's children.

Conveniently ignoring the fact that you are not paying for them - or do you also feel that you are paying for:
- children's clothing with no VAT
- golf club memberships with no VAT
- food with no VAT
you must shoulder a heavy financial load Funnily enough my tax bill doesn't go up with increased golf club memberships or the more carrots that are bought

oh and of course - skipping the fact that those same parents are already taxed and paying their share of the children in state systems...

sure - have your own perspective, makes life more interesting - but at least be accurate

[okgo]

said:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5d0cd9a7ed915d094666a78d/Elitist_Britain_2019.pdf