Shotgun Safe - Metal Key or Numeric Keycode?

[nsi]

McSam said:

If you are honestly that concerned about your wife, kids or guests gaining access to your shotgun cabinet, it shouldn't be in your house. Simple as that!

I don't agree with that. The policeman made it very clear that it's illegal for me to allow anyone else to get access to the shotgun. I may be right or wrong, but it seemed to me that leaving the key on a bunch in plain sight would count as 'allowing'.

McSam said:

I really don't see any problem with keeping one key with your others on the ring - which obviously I like to keep an eye on anyway.. - and the other locked away somewhere.

Keep your keys on your bedside table at night, or if you're really that paranoid lock them away with the spare.

Think about it. The chances of you encountering someone who is in your house, feels the need to steal your keys, actually considers using your keys while still in the house, finds your shotgun cabinet, has any sort of desire to start committing this level of crime, finds the correct key for it, takes a shotgun, manages to find any ammunition, and then has any intention of using it.. are the square root of fk all!

The above is probably a fair point though.

[djfaulkner]

Are you allowed/supposed to keep the ammo and the guns in the same safe?
If not, then if money allows you could get both a numeric and a key safe

Only ask as when I was growing up a neighbour kept a gun and he had two safes one for ammo and another guns.

[nsi]

Dusty964 said:

Yes- you are assuming that you wife, your kids, friends and of course the workmen would all relish the opportunity to clear your gun safe if you left a key laying around.
As someone else has said, if you are that worried,you don't have a gun in the house.

It's not that I think it's likely at all. Just that I'd probably feel better if it were "impossible" rather than just "unlikely".

[nsi]

djfaulkner said:

Are you allowed/supposed to keep the ammo and the guns in the same safe?
If not, then if money allows you could get both a numeric and a key safe

Only ask as when I was growing up a neighbour kept a gun and he had two safes one for ammo and another guns.

No, there's no special rules on shotgun cartridges regards how they are stored. You could just put them in a cardboard box on a shelf if you wanted.

But you're right there are indeed special rules for section 1 firearms ammunition though. That covers pretty much anything which isn't a shotgun, and so will cover rifles and hand guns. I think they need to be stored separately from the gun and you need to keep records about what you buy and what you use etc. None of that applies to a shotgun though.

That said, it's not going to be a bad thing to keep the shotgun cartridges locked up as well. Although it's legally unnecessary I'd probably use the internal locking compartment for the shotgun carts, since many shotgun safes are also suitable for storing rifles and so they have this extra compartment for the section 1 ammo. (Since the internal compartment meets the definition of "separate" for the section 1 stuff.)

[thismonkeyhere]

nsi said:

Dusty964 said:

Yes- you are assuming that you wife, your kids, friends and of course the workmen would all relish the opportunity to clear your gun safe if you left a key laying around.
As someone else has said, if you are that worried,you don't have a gun in the house.

It's not that I think it's likely at all. Just that I'd probably feel better if it were "impossible" rather than just "unlikely".

As has already been pointed out, it's nothing to do with being 'worried' and everything to do with being 'illegal'. I'm pretty certain that my wife wouldn't go into the safe and that my two young children couldn't, but why risk your licence if you don't need to? Hence only I know where the keys are hidden (separately).

[Dusty964]

nsi said:

Dusty964 said:

Yes- you are assuming that you wife, your kids, friends and of course the workmen would all relish the opportunity to clear your gun safe if you left a key laying around.
As someone else has said, if you are that worried,you don't have a gun in the house.

It's not that I think it's likely at all. Just that I'd probably feel better if it were "impossible" rather than just "unlikely".

Then you have answered your own question and you require a cabinet with a numeric lock.

In truth, having a cabinet in the house really isn't a big deal. At all.

[Kuroblack350]

nsi said:

The potential problem is that if you leave your keys on a table whilst you're in the house it means that pretty much anyone in the house could get access to the safe as all they'd need to get in are the keys. This means guests, wives, kids, workmen and thieves.

If these people were unsupervised in part of your home and chose to steal your wallet it might be a pain to sort out your cards etc etc, but if they got access to your gun then I think you'd have far bigger problems to worry about than just calling your bank and insurers to replace your wallet.

So in my mind I'm currently thinking it needs to be more secure than my wallet and car keys. Hence the thread, to try to benchmark my thinking against other people to see if they agree with me or can persuade me I'm wrong.

Best bet, keep it simple.

Buy a key driven firearms safe, not just a shotgun one (tend to be narrower and shorter) - that way if you decide to press on with real firearms you can do so easily without additional cost.

If you feel the need (and you should) get a smaller, discreet keypad safe for ammunition - splitting the risk, and meaning you can keep your master key with you. Again, if you decide to go for something a little 'longer range' shall we say, you'll need this safe for the bolts.

With no additional safe I'd be more worried about ammunition storage . (you don't want to store them together with your shotties for a myriad fo good, sensible reasons)

I keep my 'master' key with me, but only because it's not very useful by itself - rifles without bolts are expensive clubs. Security is about layers, it's not rocket science, and neither is it complicated - just keep it simple.

And don't forget your VP90

[thismonkeyhere]

Kuroblack350 said:

get a smaller, discreet keypad safe for ammunition

Too small for most people I would have thought. I tend to stock up with at least 500, more usually 1000, and I don't even shoot that often.

I got a metal 'strongbox' with two locks (different keys) online for not many £ which holds about 1500 12G and is hidden elsewhere in the house.

[nsi]

Ok, cheers for the advice chaps. I think I'm personally going to feel better about the keypad so that's what I'll do.

Question still remains though, should I;

1. get a big 10 gun keypad safe and use the internal compartment for cartridges? c£470 (Don't mind keeping the internal compartment key on my keyring as it's useless until you're into the safe.)

Or should I

2. go for the cheaper option of a compliant cabinet for the shotguns and then a separate combination safe for the cabinet key and cartridges? c£200


Part of me is thinking go for the big 10 gun job, because then I can use it for storing other valuables etc too as there will be spare space inside. (i.e. I could store my wifes valuables for her too, but I couldn't tell her the code of course so would just fetch stuff when it was wanted.) Also, as has been said, if my hobby grows then I've space to grow into with the safe. The police guy also said something like "a safe is a lifetime item", which is a good point. So long as you keep the moisture out and maintain it it should last you for pretty much as long as you want it to.

I also don't fully understand the difference between a shotgun cabinet and a shotgun safe. Both would be BS7558 compliant, and therefore legal, but a safe sounds like it would be more secure for some reason. Anyone shed any light on the difference?

Cheers

[thismonkeyhere]

nsi said:

difference between a shotgun cabinet and a shotgun safe.

Same thing, different name, shirley?

[nsi]

thismonkeyhere said:

nsi said:

difference between a shotgun cabinet and a shotgun safe.

Same thing, different name, shirley?

You'd kind of think so wouldn't you? But this website has them listed separately:
http://www.thesafeshop.co.uk/gun-safes
(look at the first two sections)

[Dusty964]

Why would you want to keep valuables in a gunsafe ?

Allow your paranoia to kick back in for a moment- when the workman realizes you have few valuables about the place, he twigs that you must have a safe. When he has threatened to smash your wife's skull with his hammer, you reluctantly tell him the code. He has a field day- jewelry and guns.

I think you are making this far harder than it needs to be.

[Fish]

I would never buy another shotgun cabinet as these generally have two locks with two separate keys and are a pain. Buy a rifle safe which has one locking handle and one key. These are much easier to use.

[TIGA84]

It sounds like you're outlaying a hell of a lot of money to me, keys are totally safe, a brattonsound 5 gun safe would suffice perfectly, unless you go mad buying guns of course - how long have you been shooting?

As has been mentioned before - the likelyhood of someone breaking in and realising you have a gun safe (if they even know what one looks like)then finding the keys and then searching cartridges out, removing the snap caps, tkaing the safety off and then wanting to do you harm are non-existent, impossible.

If they wanted to shoot you, they'd already have a gun.

Also, no need to safehouse your cartridges, just keep them out of sight somewhere dry.

[markmullen]

Also be aware of how you are going to store your guns, we kept ours in Peli cases for protection and to make it quicker loading each night to go training, we had a 10 gun cabinet which only just took 4 cased rifles, always better to go bigger than you imagine.

[thismonkeyhere]

nsi said:

You'd kind of think so wouldn't you? But this website has them listed separately:
http://www.thesafeshop.co.uk/gun-safes
(look at the first two sections)

Well there you go, it would appear to be to do with the type of locks. Mine is a cabinet. Brattonsound 2/3 gun - £119.95 on that site, got mine for £65 from Mole Valley - bargain!!

[WorAl]

OP you are being paranoid.

Do the sensible thing, buy a key operated cabinet and hide the keys. It isn't difficult. If you're that botherd about it, save yourself the bother and keep your guns at the police station or local gun shop.

[nsi]

Dusty964 said:

Why would you want to keep valuables in a gunsafe ?

The policeman said it would be a reasonable thing to do. A gun safe is still a safe, so why not?

Dusty964 said:

Allow your paranoia to kick back in for a moment- when the workman realizes you have few valuables about the place, he twigs that you must have a safe. When he has threatened to smash your wife's skull with his hammer, you reluctantly tell him the code. He has a field day- jewelry and guns.

I think you are making this far harder than it needs to be.

I think you are taking the mickey. :P

Fish said:

I would never buy another shotgun cabinet as these generally have two locks with two separate keys and are a pain. Buy a rifle safe which has one locking handle and one key. These are much easier to use.

thismonkeyhere said:

Well there you go, it would appear to be to do with the type of locks. Mine is a cabinet. Brattonsound 2/3 gun - £119.95 on that site, got mine for £65 from Mole Valley - bargain!!

Yes, I think you're both on the money there - it's to do with the locking mechanism and a "safe" has only one key and would be easier to use.

TIGA84 said:

It sounds like you're outlaying a hell of a lot of money to me, keys are totally safe, a brattonsound 5 gun safe would suffice perfectly, unless you go mad buying guns of course - how long have you been shooting?

As has been mentioned before - the likelyhood of someone breaking in and realising you have a gun safe (if they even know what one looks like)then finding the keys and then searching cartridges out, removing the snap caps, tkaing the safety off and then wanting to do you harm are non-existent, impossible.

If they wanted to shoot you, they'd already have a gun.

Also, no need to safehouse your cartridges, just keep them out of sight somewhere dry.

Been shooting for a little over 6 months using a friends shotgun (with him there) at an appropriate clay shooting venue. My license application is going through currently because I now want to look at getting some suitable storage and then my own shotgun later on. So then I can go clay shooting whenever I want, and could start to take my friends as guests too.

Regards my concern, it's not so much someone with bad intent getting at it to harm me, as you say there's plenty of ways to hurt me which are much easier! It's more to do with a curious child or a thief taking them and me getting into trouble over it.

If the code is in my head I don't have to worry about it being taken without me knowing, as would be the case if the keys were simply hidden.

markmullen said:

Also be aware of how you are going to store your guns, we kept ours in Peli cases for protection and to make it quicker loading each night to go training, we had a 10 gun cabinet which only just took 4 cased rifles, always better to go bigger than you imagine.

Fair comment. Most people I shoot with tend to transport them in the slip, so I'll probably just do that to be honest.

WorAl said:

OP you are being paranoid.

Do the sensible thing, buy a key operated cabinet and hide the keys. It isn't difficult. If you're that botherd about it, save yourself the bother and keep your guns at the police station or local gun shop.

But, IMO, keys might be found so my gun would only be as safe as my key-hiding skills! Ok, if thinking that makes me paranoid in your opinion then I'll accept that, as this is clearly an area where personal judgement comes into it and not everyone will agree with each other. I did ask if I was being paranoid and you've given me an answer, so I can't criticise you for that! But since a keypad lock makes me feel like I'll sleep better, it's what I'll do. Now just deciding what type of keypad to go for, i) the big keypad one or ii) the big metal key safe with the keys in a smaller keypad safe.

[The Moose]

Is it just me thinking that a £35 keypad safe probably isn't the hardest thing in the world to crack?!

[nsi]

The Moose said:

Is it just me thinking that a £35 keypad safe probably isn't the hardest thing in the world to crack?!

Well indeed, I was thinking about that too. Since the main safe has to be BS7558 then you'd think the one with the keys to it should meet the same standard? But apparently your keys don't need to be locked up at all, just hidden is enough according to several people on this thread. So with that in mind if you hide the mini safe then it wouldn't need to meet any standards. It's another thing which makes me think that just getting the big safe with the built in pad would be better, so the weakness of a small is not an issue.