Things you always wanted to know the answer to [Vol. 5]
Discussion
Dr Jekyll said:
StevieBee said:
Weeeellll....
To enjoy civil liberty there must be civil society which can only exist against a framework of regulation, the responsibility for which we are happy to pass to others whose effectiveness in such is measured over periods of four years. Those regulations apply to society rather than individuals, tackling the lowest common denominators for the benefit of others. This is why, despite us here all knowing that we can navigate a B-road safety at high speed, there are many that aren't so a speed limit is imposed to protect them and thus ourselves should we happen across them in the middle of bend on a road that we are deftly drifting around with surgeon like precision. Whilst such regulation is a hindrance and annoyance to us as individuals, when viewed from an out-looking-in perspective, it would be difficult to think it anything other than broadly right.
Applying this to ID cards... Should they ever be introduced in the UK, the vast majority of us would never have cause to show them to anyone because for the vast majority of us, they would exist to help us at a societal level. Those that would find themselves having to show them may well be those who's idea of civil society differs greatly from ours. Put it this way, if it was shown that ID cards would have prevented the 7/7 bombings or any other atrocity, would that change your thinking (I'm not saying that they would, just positioning the theory as possible)?
Personally, I'm not an ID Card 'Enthusiast' but nor am I closed to the idea. The devil is in the yet-to-be-published detail.
But the question of whether they would or wouldn't do any good is exactly the issue. If you have some evidence they would prevent bombings (they didn't elsewhere) then let's hear it. If you haven't a hypothetical question is irrelevant. If a doctor wanted to reduce my freedom by chopping my leg off, he would have to show how it would save my life. Saying 'but if hypothetically it would save your life, prevent alien invasion and improve wifi reception would you agree to it' would not convince me.To enjoy civil liberty there must be civil society which can only exist against a framework of regulation, the responsibility for which we are happy to pass to others whose effectiveness in such is measured over periods of four years. Those regulations apply to society rather than individuals, tackling the lowest common denominators for the benefit of others. This is why, despite us here all knowing that we can navigate a B-road safety at high speed, there are many that aren't so a speed limit is imposed to protect them and thus ourselves should we happen across them in the middle of bend on a road that we are deftly drifting around with surgeon like precision. Whilst such regulation is a hindrance and annoyance to us as individuals, when viewed from an out-looking-in perspective, it would be difficult to think it anything other than broadly right.
Applying this to ID cards... Should they ever be introduced in the UK, the vast majority of us would never have cause to show them to anyone because for the vast majority of us, they would exist to help us at a societal level. Those that would find themselves having to show them may well be those who's idea of civil society differs greatly from ours. Put it this way, if it was shown that ID cards would have prevented the 7/7 bombings or any other atrocity, would that change your thinking (I'm not saying that they would, just positioning the theory as possible)?
Personally, I'm not an ID Card 'Enthusiast' but nor am I closed to the idea. The devil is in the yet-to-be-published detail.
I was responding to the point made that ID cards are an affront to our freedoms and liberties by pointing out that those freedoms and liberties come with certain obligations towards the well being of society as a whole. ID Cards may or may not be a useful extension of this and we can certainly discuss whether they may be effective or indeed needed, but to discount them on the basis of them somehow being subversive to the pursuit of our civil liberties is - in my view - wrong.
BritishBlitz87 said:
Can someone explain to me why so many people oppose ID cards? Not the dystopian communist Smart Cards they have in China, I get why you wouldn't want that, I mean just a plain old bit of plastic like the driver's license with a picture, name and photo to show you are a legal inhabitant of the United Kingdom .
I'm all for personal liberty but I do think the government has a right to know who they are supposed to be ruling!
A Government should firstly Serve it's people and secondly Lead, never rule, but I suppose that's splitting hairs. I'm all for personal liberty but I do think the government has a right to know who they are supposed to be ruling!
It's not a "plain old bit of plastic" that's only the tangible part of it. The more dangerous part is the National Database to manage it. A database open to abuse by Governments for our manipulation. Consider the sort of skulduggery Cummings and co were getting up to with Cambridge Analytica and his goal to consolidate all the various current data bases to create a single 'Citizens Database'.
It doesn't matter what colour rosette your chosen political team wear, how do you feel about the other parties having access to a national database which could, in fact would, allow them to cross reference your DVLA, Passport, NHS data with your online profile etc? When they're in power to feed you exactly the information they want you to see, when they want you to see it? Sounds all very Tin foil hat I know, but it's happening already with Social Media information.
Two of the main cornerstone of Data Security are Confidentiality, ensuring that only people will a good reason can access data, can and Integrity, ensuring that only authorised people can modify data.
The way we compartmentalise information in the UK goes some way to ensure that we cannot be manipulated by the 'powers that be'. If you want to drive in the UK you need to be licensed, which is fair and reasonable so the DVLA keeps a record of your license, and will only give that information to authorised people. No one else. Same goes for the NHS, there's a database (okay, there's a few, it's not perfect) so if you end up in A&E 100 miles from home, they can find out your medical history to treat you. Same goes for National Insurance, Passports. etc. The, mostly independent Government agencies will trust to manage that data for us, only manage that data and only give it to people who have a right to it.
I can't trust any Government, current, future or past with a central database of citizens, that they can use to cross reference other databases, not to just pass a law, under the pretext of I don't know, anti-immigration, counter-terrorism etc and use it to manipulate us to create an all-but-name dictatorship. There are countless lessons from history why this is a very bad idea.
davhill said:
Your inference couldn't be clearer but I'd like to know precisely what you believe is wrong the 'old' argument?
Oh come now, history is littered with examples to the point where the phrase is practically a cliche. Wikipedia even has a page dedicated to it, complete with a load of references and links to further reading.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_to_hide_argu...
I did like the Edward Snowden quote:
"Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy because you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say."
P-Jay said:
sicarumba said:
This one is a little odd, and don't read it if you're squeamish or something. It also takes a few things into account which may need a bit of imagination. But I still would like to know the answer!
If you close your eyes and hold your hands out in front of you, you know where your hands are. If you prick your finger, maybe dig your thumbnail into your index finger, you feel the pain from your hand and you know your hand is out in front of you, so you feel the pain from out in front of you. If on the other hand you get a pain in your stomach, you know where it's coming from and you instinctively cover your stomach.
If you were able to numb your skin such that you could make an incision across your torso and remove your intestines without pain, hold your intestines out in front of you and then dig your thumbnail into them (which does give the sensation of pain, the numbing only applied to the skin to allow this experiment), would you feel the pain out in front of you or would you feel it where your intestines normally live?
I have a little insight into this!If you close your eyes and hold your hands out in front of you, you know where your hands are. If you prick your finger, maybe dig your thumbnail into your index finger, you feel the pain from your hand and you know your hand is out in front of you, so you feel the pain from out in front of you. If on the other hand you get a pain in your stomach, you know where it's coming from and you instinctively cover your stomach.
If you were able to numb your skin such that you could make an incision across your torso and remove your intestines without pain, hold your intestines out in front of you and then dig your thumbnail into them (which does give the sensation of pain, the numbing only applied to the skin to allow this experiment), would you feel the pain out in front of you or would you feel it where your intestines normally live?
3 weeks ago I had some surgery on my hand/arm. It was decided a few months ago, I wouldn't have a General, but a local 'block' (might be Covid related) so a nice lady stuck a lot of needles into my arm pit (wouldn't recommended it, horrible) and effectively switched off the nerves in my arm.
At first, because I could feel my shoulder and I remembered where I'd put my arm/hand I could still sense where it was, but as she moved it to get to various things bit of me, I lost where it was. Rest assured, I wasn't going to look either.
The op didn't go exactly to plan, nothing went wrong per-se, but I was warned of 3 protentional 'hiccups' that might happen during the surgery. They all happened, so it over ran, the 'block' started to wear off around the 2 hour mark, but the surgery took 3 hours, not the 90 mins they planned for.
I don't know exactly what was being done at that point. The 'job' was a simple Carpel Tunnel Decompression, followed by removal of a plate and 8 (I think) screws in my wrist which had caused the damage. But 1 of the screws rounded (we discussed the merits of using a hex head or even Torx, but it seemed moot at that point) so she used a hammer to removed the plate and then turned it to try to remove the screw. She started to turn the plate, blood splattered across one of the other Surgeons face, I apologised.
Then, it happened.
Something that wasn't numb was torn. My whole body leapt. For a split second my body, minus my arm was off the table completely.
Anyway, the short answer.
IME If something internal hurts, but because your skin is numb and you don't know where that part of you is relative to the rest of you. You feel it in the part of your body it is, so in my case I felt my arm hurt, even though I didn't know where it was, I didn't (thankfully) reach out to protect it, partly because my conscious mind knew moving was a bad idea, but also because I wouldn't know where to find it. As for your hellish tale of disembowelment, I believe you'd feel two things, the sensation of touching something with your finger and a pain in your gut. Your brain would tell you that you gut is in your torso, even though it wasn't.
As we're talking about gory s
t, he's my arm 4 days post op, the scar on my forearm is about 3 times longer than the one I had when they put the plate in due to the problems getting it out.
intestines outside the abdomen...
you would still feel that it was inside the abdomen, the level in your body at which you would feel the pain is determined by the level of origin of the nerves that supply that part of the bowel, e.g. stomach / upper bowel pain will be felt just under your ribs (T8), pain from your small intestine / middle bowel will be felt near your belly button (T10), and pain from your large bowel will be felt just above your pubic bone (T12)
P-Jay’s hand
my wife says it is a shame they didn't have her screw removal tool kit... she would have enjoyed the discussion about hex or torx... she also says that blocks rock! main reason is that patient is awake and alert so they buy in to the ongoing treatment as they have seen the operation... and you can talk to them about what you are doing and why... plus the patient doesn’t get a surge of pain as the nerves awake after a GA so there is less reliance on drugs... however she agrees that a 3 hour op is not ideal for a block!!
her kit:
StevieBee said:
Applying this to ID cards... Should they ever be introduced in the UK, the vast majority of us would never have cause to show them to anyone because for the vast majority of us, they would exist to help us at a societal level.
....
Personally, I'm not an ID Card 'Enthusiast' but nor am I closed to the idea. The devil is in the yet-to-be-published detail.
A fear would be that, given current technology it would be a simple thing for an ID card to use Near Field Communication (or its successor), so just walk through the arch on your way into a venue/premises and lo and behold your vaccine status is read. A small step then to a passing policeman's scanner accessing it, or determining that you didn't have one as he strolled past you.....
Personally, I'm not an ID Card 'Enthusiast' but nor am I closed to the idea. The devil is in the yet-to-be-published detail.
Brave one this. Why, after a century of the right to vote has there not been a Women’s Party whose purpose was to increase rights and expectation of females. As the majority of the population they could of forced through legislation whatever the menfolk thought. Not down to not wanting to rock the boat surely?
Clockwork Cupcake said:
Oh come now, history is littered with examples to the point where the phrase is practically a cliche. Wikipedia even has a page dedicated to it, complete with a load of references and links to further reading.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_to_hide_argu...
I did like the Edward Snowden quote:
"Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy because you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say."
Well, CC. Wikipedia is timing out every time I try the link, as it did with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_to_hide_argu...
I did like the Edward Snowden quote:
"Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy because you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say."
trying to open its home page.
Free speech? don't make me laugh.
Some time ago, I floated (pun intended) an idea in NP&E.
This was about accommodating illegals on a distant British
territory. Oddly enough, the self same notion made various news
outlets a couple of days later.
This was in the same thread that someone posted a picture of
a floating sea mine, expressing regret they were no longer seen in The
Channel.
Guess who got a fortnight's ban for (alleged) hate speech'? Not the picture poster.
I simply dislike people making a mockery of this country.
davhill]ostfritt said:
Illegal migrants are a very minor problem in the grand scheme of things and IMO it would be better if they were in the system and paying taxes.
Snip
According to the Pew Research Centre, and I quote, '...there may have been between 800,000 and 1.2 million unauthorised migrants living in the UK in 2017.' Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50420307
Even taking this figure that's four years old, I don't see a very minor problem. I wonder what 1.2 million missing charges for NI, HMRC charges and missing council tax add up to over four years. This doesn't take into account costs like those incurred for healthcare, policing, accommodation, deportation et al.
I'mn also intrigued by the ID card naysayers. Do they simply see the measure as in some way Draconian and/or Orwellian...or do they have something to hide.
The majority of them came here by legal means and would presumably have an NI number and pay taxes if they're in a normal job, pay council tax etc if they live somewhere and at the same time not be able to access some services. So maybe I was being a bit flippant saying it would be better if they were paying taxes, because they already are.Snip
According to the Pew Research Centre, and I quote, '...there may have been between 800,000 and 1.2 million unauthorised migrants living in the UK in 2017.' Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50420307
Even taking this figure that's four years old, I don't see a very minor problem. I wonder what 1.2 million missing charges for NI, HMRC charges and missing council tax add up to over four years. This doesn't take into account costs like those incurred for healthcare, policing, accommodation, deportation et al.
I'mn also intrigued by the ID card naysayers. Do they simply see the measure as in some way Draconian and/or Orwellian...or do they have something to hide.
Blenkiboy said:
Brave one this. Why, after a century of the right to vote has there not been a Women’s Party whose purpose was to increase rights and expectation of females. As the majority of the population they could of forced through legislation whatever the menfolk thought. Not down to not wanting to rock the boat surely?
There is. A certain Ms S Toksvig is involved with them:
https://www.womensequality.org.uk/
Clockwork Cupcake said:
davhill said:
Some time ago, I floated (pun intended) an idea in NP&E.
NP&E... the Mos Eisley of PistonHeads. 
Rostfritt said:
The majority of them came here by legal means and would presumably have an NI number and pay taxes if they're in a normal job, pay council tax etc if they live somewhere and at the same time not be able to access some services. So maybe I was being a bit flippant saying it would be better if they were paying taxes, because they already are.
Well fair enough. However, that strikes me a a pretty large 'presumably'.Blenkiboy said:
Brave one this. Why, after a century of the right to vote has there not been a Women’s Party whose purpose was to increase rights and expectation of females. As the majority of the population they could of forced through legislation whatever the menfolk thought. Not down to not wanting to rock the boat surely?
Probably because there is too much diversity of political opinion among women? They may make up just over half of the population, but beyond a few things like equal voting rights, they are not going to be able to make a manifesto that all women are going to vote for.akirk said:
view from the sofa - sitting next to my wife who is a consultant hand surgeon...
intestines outside the abdomen...
you would still feel that it was inside the abdomen, the level in your body at which you would feel the pain is determined by the level of origin of the nerves that supply that part of the bowel, e.g. stomach / upper bowel pain will be felt just under your ribs (T8), pain from your small intestine / middle bowel will be felt near your belly button (T10), and pain from your large bowel will be felt just above your pubic bone (T12)
P-Jay’s hand
my wife says it is a shame they didn't have her screw removal tool kit... she would have enjoyed the discussion about hex or torx... she also says that blocks rock! main reason is that patient is awake and alert so they buy in to the ongoing treatment as they have seen the operation... and you can talk to them about what you are doing and why... plus the patient doesn’t get a surge of pain as the nerves awake after a GA so there is less reliance on drugs... however she agrees that a 3 hour op is not ideal for a block!!
her kit:
That's a lot of drill bits!intestines outside the abdomen...
you would still feel that it was inside the abdomen, the level in your body at which you would feel the pain is determined by the level of origin of the nerves that supply that part of the bowel, e.g. stomach / upper bowel pain will be felt just under your ribs (T8), pain from your small intestine / middle bowel will be felt near your belly button (T10), and pain from your large bowel will be felt just above your pubic bone (T12)
P-Jay’s hand
my wife says it is a shame they didn't have her screw removal tool kit... she would have enjoyed the discussion about hex or torx... she also says that blocks rock! main reason is that patient is awake and alert so they buy in to the ongoing treatment as they have seen the operation... and you can talk to them about what you are doing and why... plus the patient doesn’t get a surge of pain as the nerves awake after a GA so there is less reliance on drugs... however she agrees that a 3 hour op is not ideal for a block!!
her kit:
Slightly unnerving that there's a couple missing. Anyone complained of a rattling noise coming from their arms?
Blenkiboy said:
Brave one this. Why, after a century of the right to vote has there not been a Women’s Party whose purpose was to increase rights and expectation of females. As the majority of the population they could of forced through legislation whatever the menfolk thought. Not down to not wanting to rock the boat surely?
It would be the same as a 'Whites Only Party' or a 'Gay Party' .... it would be deliberately divisive.People vote for their MP on a range of issues and in the UK suppression of women's rights is not really an issue so one standing on this issue is unlikely to attract sufficient votes.
Also, the idea assumes that all women would support a feminist agenda and not all women buy into the whole Millie Tant thing. In fact, I would say that those that do are in the minority and most women are in fact level headed.
And in any case, what are the policies that don't currently exist that would warrant an entire political party to be formed to address?
P-Jay said:
BritishBlitz87 said:
Can someone explain to me why so many people oppose ID cards? Not the dystopian communist Smart Cards they have in China, I get why you wouldn't want that, I mean just a plain old bit of plastic like the driver's license with a picture, name and photo to show you are a legal inhabitant of the United Kingdom .
I'm all for personal liberty but I do think the government has a right to know who they are supposed to be ruling!
A Government should firstly Serve it's people and secondly Lead, never rule, but I suppose that's splitting hairs. I'm all for personal liberty but I do think the government has a right to know who they are supposed to be ruling!
It's not a "plain old bit of plastic" that's only the tangible part of it. The more dangerous part is the National Database to manage it. A database open to abuse by Governments for our manipulation. Consider the sort of skulduggery Cummings and co were getting up to with Cambridge Analytica and his goal to consolidate all the various current data bases to create a single 'Citizens Database'.
It doesn't matter what colour rosette your chosen political team wear, how do you feel about the other parties having access to a national database which could, in fact would, allow them to cross reference your DVLA, Passport, NHS data with your online profile etc? When they're in power to feed you exactly the information they want you to see, when they want you to see it? Sounds all very Tin foil hat I know, but it's happening already with Social Media information.
Two of the main cornerstone of Data Security are Confidentiality, ensuring that only people will a good reason can access data, can and Integrity, ensuring that only authorised people can modify data.
The way we compartmentalise information in the UK goes some way to ensure that we cannot be manipulated by the 'powers that be'. If you want to drive in the UK you need to be licensed, which is fair and reasonable so the DVLA keeps a record of your license, and will only give that information to authorised people. No one else. Same goes for the NHS, there's a database (okay, there's a few, it's not perfect) so if you end up in A&E 100 miles from home, they can find out your medical history to treat you. Same goes for National Insurance, Passports. etc. The, mostly independent Government agencies will trust to manage that data for us, only manage that data and only give it to people who have a right to it.
I can't trust any Government, current, future or past with a central database of citizens, that they can use to cross reference other databases, not to just pass a law, under the pretext of I don't know, anti-immigration, counter-terrorism etc and use it to manipulate us to create an all-but-name dictatorship. There are countless lessons from history why this is a very bad idea.
The data will be sitting on an Oracle or SQL Server database, and they could easily be cross referenced. I'd be surprised if the data isn't already linked in some way. I could write the code and I'm not even a developer!
An example would be ANPR. From the number plate the insurance, tax and MOT can be checked, which are all seperate databases.
StevieBee said:
It would be the same as a 'Whites Only Party' or a 'Gay Party' .... it would be deliberately divisive.
People vote for their MP on a range of issues and in the UK suppression of women's rights is not really an issue so one standing on this issue is unlikely to attract sufficient votes.
Also, the idea assumes that all women would support a feminist agenda and not all women buy into the whole Millie Tant thing. In fact, I would say that those that do are in the minority and most women are in fact level headed.
And in any case, what are the policies that don't currently exist that would warrant an entire political party to be formed to address?
I agree. Very few single-issue parties have any credence. Probably the only one that has anything even approaching a legitimacy is the Green Party, and even that's fairly niche. People vote for their MP on a range of issues and in the UK suppression of women's rights is not really an issue so one standing on this issue is unlikely to attract sufficient votes.
Also, the idea assumes that all women would support a feminist agenda and not all women buy into the whole Millie Tant thing. In fact, I would say that those that do are in the minority and most women are in fact level headed.
And in any case, what are the policies that don't currently exist that would warrant an entire political party to be formed to address?
davhill said:
Rostfritt said:
The majority of them came here by legal means and would presumably have an NI number and pay taxes if they're in a normal job, pay council tax etc if they live somewhere and at the same time not be able to access some services. So maybe I was being a bit flippant saying it would be better if they were paying taxes, because they already are.
Well fair enough. However, that strikes me a a pretty large 'presumably'.What with some UK born citizens happily dodging paying NI and Income Tax
[ stand up that Kaye Adams, what a hero you are ] I seriously doubt the average
Somalian or Latvian immigrant is voluntarily paying for their keep.
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