Cost of living
Discussion
jdw100 said:
I'd also have different people come into school at the start of each term, to talk to pupils from the age of 12 onwards.
I'd bring in a guy on a low income to explain what his life is like - how he can't afford this or that. What it means to have to constantly chase up benefits, get assessed, fill in forms etc.
Also bring in people from other walks of life - explain their career choices and what it means to them.
The overall message being - this is one of your major choices in life, you can mess around now and the implications can last a lifetime. Or you can knuckle down, get involved and live a decent life in the future.
I dont disagree, the problem may arise when you get the 'true entrepreneur' in who has no qualifications, ditched school, etc... and has made a mint through whatever businesses and hard work - the latter is the key clearly, but children and teenagers wont see it this way ... I asked by nephew and niece (both 12) recently what they would like to do when they grow up - both said be youtubers and make millions making vlogs/videos ... they are from both from very different families, the niece from a single mother, nonworking, impoverished, traditionl council environment, the nephew from a stable 2.1 family home, one parent senior staff for HMRC, one parent a shift manager in a factory ... the overriding message to me was quick, easy, money-making and totally unrealistic for the masses, they wouldnt have it suggested that it was highly unlikely though :sigh:I'd bring in a guy on a low income to explain what his life is like - how he can't afford this or that. What it means to have to constantly chase up benefits, get assessed, fill in forms etc.
Also bring in people from other walks of life - explain their career choices and what it means to them.
The overall message being - this is one of your major choices in life, you can mess around now and the implications can last a lifetime. Or you can knuckle down, get involved and live a decent life in the future.
alorotom said:
I dont disagree, the problem may arise when you get the 'true entrepreneur' in who has no qualifications, ditched school, etc... and has made a mint through whatever businesses and hard work - the latter is the key clearly, but children and teenagers wont see it this way ... I asked by nephew and niece (both 12) recently what they would like to do when they grow up - both said be youtubers and make millions making vlogs/videos ... they are from both from very different families, the niece from a single mother, nonworking, impoverished, traditionl council environment, the nephew from a stable 2.1 family home, one parent senior staff for HMRC, one parent a shift manager in a factory ... the overriding message to me was quick, easy, money-making and totally unrealistic for the masses, they wouldnt have it suggested that it was highly unlikely though :sigh:
The youth of today huh? My little sister was planning on being an interior designer/decorator for celebrities and billionaires, until I reminded her she lived in a small town in New Zealand and she didn't have a clue about interior design/decorating. She's not revisited the idea since...Trabi601 said:
berlintaxi said:
Trabi601 said:
We could give all poor people a symbol to wear on their clothes and ghettoise them. Perhaps exterminate them at birth.
Something like a star perhaps?At the risk of invoking Godwin's Law, I honestly believe there are a number of posters who would have been collaborators in Nazi Germany.
I've said it before - but it's a mystery why Haymarket haven't clamped down on the more extreme posters.
Trabi601 said:
We say this in jest, but I'm often surprised at just how utterly reprehensible some views are on here.
At the risk of invoking Godwin's Law, I honestly believe there are a number of posters who would have been collaborators in Nazi Germany.
I've said it before - but it's a mystery why Haymarket haven't clamped down on the more extreme posters.
In summary: you disagree with some posters' views, suggesting that makes them like Nazis - and in the sentence immediately afterward imply that you literally expect for these dissenters to be unilaterally silenced At the risk of invoking Godwin's Law, I honestly believe there are a number of posters who would have been collaborators in Nazi Germany.
I've said it before - but it's a mystery why Haymarket haven't clamped down on the more extreme posters.
Rawwr said:
You realise you're the extreme commentator in this scenario, right?
^ thisI'm amazed how many folk have a view at one end of a scale and simply cannot even consider the possibility that another opinion might actually have some merit.
This country is on its arse as it is, if we go a step further and make it acceptable for folk to do nothing and have the support of the welfare system where exactly will that lead us?
I'm all for those that NEED help getting it, but unfortunately nowadays its the wrong people getting it. You have war veterans living on the streets in cardboard boxes, while others are being kept fed and sheltered simply because they can't be bothered to go out and earn money - how the hell can anyone justify that.
The reason the above scenario exists is down to the fact that its become way too easy to knock out a couple of kids and live at the taxpayers expense for the rest of your life (and that's not a dig at women, there are plenty of blokes who ride the gravy train with them). It wasn't always like this, the government have allowed it to gradually happen and as more people saw it happening more decided they'd like a piece of the free life too - to the extent that you now have families where neither of the parents have ever bothered to work. Regardless of whether you educate kids on money/money management in school, they learn the most from home, so how do you expect them to end up?
Welfare should be here for those who need it, the elderly, the disabled, terminally sick etc. No-one can predict the future and its inevitable that some will fall on hard times, and there should be a system where people are given temporary aid from the state, to give them the breathing space they need to get back on their feet. Under no circumstances should that aid just continue indefinitely if you are able to work but make a choice not to.
Edited by The Ferret on Thursday 11th May 10:32
Edited by The Ferret on Thursday 11th May 10:33
HugoFastmann said:
The youth of today huh? My little sister was planning on being an interior designer/decorator for celebrities and billionaires, until I reminded her she lived in a small town in New Zealand and she didn't have a clue about interior design/decorating. She's not revisited the idea since...
Hugo Fastmann - also known as the dream crusher!(I assuming she was 12 and not 36 at this point?)
Hey Hugo have yah sin me gumboots oi'm off to desoign a noo menshun fer the Buckhums?
The Ferret said:
^ this
I'm amazed how many folk have a view at one end of a scale and simply cannot even consider the possibility that another opinion might actually have some merit.
This country is on its arse as it is, if we go a step further and make it acceptable for folk to do nothing and have the support of the welfare system where exactly will that lead us?
I'm all for those that NEED help getting it, but unfortunately nowadays its the wrong people getting it. You have war veterans living on the streets in cardboard boxes, while others are being kept fed and sheltered simply because they can't be bothered to go out and earn money - how the hell can anyone justify that.
The reason the above scenario exists is down to the fact that its become way too easy to knock out a couple of kids and live at the taxpayers expense for the rest of your life (and that's not a dig at women, there are plenty of blokes who ride the gravy train with them). It wasn't always like this, the government have allowed it to gradually happen and as more people saw it happening more decided they'd like a piece of the free life too - to the extent that you now have families where neither of the parents have ever bothered to work. Regardless of whether you educate kids on money/money management in school, they learn the most from home, so how do you expect them to end up?
Welfare should be here for those who need it, the elderly, the disabled, terminally sick etc. No-one can predict the future and its inevitable that some will fall on hard times, and there should be a system where people are given temporary aid from the state, to give them the breathing space they need to get back on their feet. Under no circumstances should that aid just continue indefinitely if you are able to work but make a choice not to.
Very much in agreement.I'm amazed how many folk have a view at one end of a scale and simply cannot even consider the possibility that another opinion might actually have some merit.
This country is on its arse as it is, if we go a step further and make it acceptable for folk to do nothing and have the support of the welfare system where exactly will that lead us?
I'm all for those that NEED help getting it, but unfortunately nowadays its the wrong people getting it. You have war veterans living on the streets in cardboard boxes, while others are being kept fed and sheltered simply because they can't be bothered to go out and earn money - how the hell can anyone justify that.
The reason the above scenario exists is down to the fact that its become way too easy to knock out a couple of kids and live at the taxpayers expense for the rest of your life (and that's not a dig at women, there are plenty of blokes who ride the gravy train with them). It wasn't always like this, the government have allowed it to gradually happen and as more people saw it happening more decided they'd like a piece of the free life too - to the extent that you now have families where neither of the parents have ever bothered to work. Regardless of whether you educate kids on money/money management in school, they learn the most from home, so how do you expect them to end up?
Welfare should be here for those who need it, the elderly, the disabled, terminally sick etc. No-one can predict the future and its inevitable that some will fall on hard times, and there should be a system where people are given temporary aid from the state, to give them the breathing space they need to get back on their feet. Under no circumstances should that aid just continue indefinitely if you are able to work but make a choice not to.
Edited by The Ferret on Thursday 11th May 10:32
Edited by The Ferret on Thursday 11th May 10:33
I'd like to hear the views of people that disagree with this post....
My response was a reaction to those who seem to live in a little bubble of their own where you can find the money to relocate away from all your support mechanisms, educate yourself to Masters standard in your spare time and build a business from nothing. Despite the fact that the only job you've ever had is stacking shelves in supermarkets.
They appear to believe the poor are poor through choice - there's little empathy for those who are stuck in a trap, either through lack of ability or circumstance.
They also seem to completely ignore the fact that if everyone could be educated and attain more, there would be nobody left to do the more menial jobs - in fact, this attitude is very much limited to the UK and does lead to people who'd rather sign on the dole rather than work the jobs other people deem to be unworthy.
Contrast this to the continent, where there's much less of a class, or 'them and us' divide, where people are given more equal treatment and respect - and there's much less inequality in wages.
Amusingly, many of those who pour scorn on the poor and tell them they should have worked harder at school, should educate themselves at the Library etc,. are also those who voted to get rid of those foreigners coming here and taking the more menial jobs. I don't know who they think will do those jobs when you have devalued them to the point the UK population won't do them and you've cut immigration so they aren't doing them either...
They appear to believe the poor are poor through choice - there's little empathy for those who are stuck in a trap, either through lack of ability or circumstance.
They also seem to completely ignore the fact that if everyone could be educated and attain more, there would be nobody left to do the more menial jobs - in fact, this attitude is very much limited to the UK and does lead to people who'd rather sign on the dole rather than work the jobs other people deem to be unworthy.
Contrast this to the continent, where there's much less of a class, or 'them and us' divide, where people are given more equal treatment and respect - and there's much less inequality in wages.
Amusingly, many of those who pour scorn on the poor and tell them they should have worked harder at school, should educate themselves at the Library etc,. are also those who voted to get rid of those foreigners coming here and taking the more menial jobs. I don't know who they think will do those jobs when you have devalued them to the point the UK population won't do them and you've cut immigration so they aren't doing them either...
Trabi601 said:
My response was a reaction to those who seem to live in a little bubble of their own where you can find the money to relocate away from all your support mechanisms, educate yourself to Masters standard in your spare time and build a business from nothing. Despite the fact that the only job you've ever had is stacking shelves in supermarkets.
They appear to believe the poor are poor through choice - there's little empathy for those who are stuck in a trap, either through lack of ability or circumstance.
They also seem to completely ignore the fact that if everyone could be educated and attain more, there would be nobody left to do the more menial jobs - in fact, this attitude is very much limited to the UK and does lead to people who'd rather sign on the dole rather than work the jobs other people deem to be unworthy.
Contrast this to the continent, where there's much less of a class, or 'them and us' divide, where people are given more equal treatment and respect - and there's much less inequality in wages.
Amusingly, many of those who pour scorn on the poor and tell them they should have worked harder at school, should educate themselves at the Library etc,. are also those who voted to get rid of those foreigners coming here and taking the more menial jobs. I don't know who they think will do those jobs when you have devalued them to the point the UK population won't do them and you've cut immigration so they aren't doing them either...
In an ideal world everyone would have a £100k income and be equal to one another in terms of their education and ability. In reality of course it doesn't work that way, and people need to start realising that. There will always be those that do better than others in various aspects of life, but that said, its no excuse for treating anyone with any less respect. Regardless of whether you give the orders or sweep the floor, every person is equal as a human and deserves the same respect.They appear to believe the poor are poor through choice - there's little empathy for those who are stuck in a trap, either through lack of ability or circumstance.
They also seem to completely ignore the fact that if everyone could be educated and attain more, there would be nobody left to do the more menial jobs - in fact, this attitude is very much limited to the UK and does lead to people who'd rather sign on the dole rather than work the jobs other people deem to be unworthy.
Contrast this to the continent, where there's much less of a class, or 'them and us' divide, where people are given more equal treatment and respect - and there's much less inequality in wages.
Amusingly, many of those who pour scorn on the poor and tell them they should have worked harder at school, should educate themselves at the Library etc,. are also those who voted to get rid of those foreigners coming here and taking the more menial jobs. I don't know who they think will do those jobs when you have devalued them to the point the UK population won't do them and you've cut immigration so they aren't doing them either...
I feel for anyone who is giving it their best and still having a hard time getting by, but find it a little hard when they find themselves in that situation as a result of their own bad decisions. People need to realise that having kids isn't a meal ticket. Your kids are your responsibility, not the taxpayer or anyone else for that matter. You made the conscious decision to bring them into the world and must understand that you have a responsibility to provide for them. Part of that decision to bring them into the world has to consider whether you have the means to provide for them, its basic stuff but appears to be lost on many. It shouldn't be a way of making your life more comfortable by being able to rely on handouts.
With regard to voting to get rid of foreigners, yes there will always be those with the views you mention in your post, but they are a minority. They were certainly not the reasons I had for voting to close our borders. My reasons were for population control, national security and protection of the very few things such as the NHS which this country has left to offer. Call it what you want, but I can't see what the benefit would be to allowing all and sundry to enter the country to milk the benefit system and receive medical treatment for free. The country is overpopulated as it is, you only have to look at the housing market to see that - what good are you going to achieve by inviting in more people at this moment in time in such an uncontrolled fashion?
I'm not adverse to foreigners in any way, providing they do what I would expect to have to do if I were to move to their home country - i.e. work, integrate, abide by the laws and pay taxes, and contribute towards society. Sadly, the government have let the situation get to the point where our systems have become such a joke that people are willing to travel here (often illegally) to abuse them. This is where the problem stems from, the decisions made by the UK Government. Don't blame the people who have an opinion on it, blame those who allowed it to become something that forced people to start having these opposing opinions.
Trabi601 said:
They appear to believe the poor are poor through choice - there's little empathy for those who are stuck in a trap, either through lack of ability or circumstance.
.
But you cant set out policies to the lowest common denominator. The reality is that we live in a free democracy with high social mobility, free education, a dynamic economy, freedom of choice etc etc. .
There are plenty of examples of people who have achieved something great from having nothing. Is it harder for that type of person to succeed? sure, but it is up to hem to make the best of their opportunities.
If people cannot get on with their lives and make their life a reasonable success in the 5th largest economy then they are, I'm afraid, losers.
I appreciate there will be people with heath problems, mental health problems etc who need support. Absolutely we should help these people.
But we shouldn't base our economy and our policies on making those who can be bothered to try pay for those who cannot, in the false (leftist elite) belief that they have had no opportunities in life.
And If we always tell these people that they have had no opportunities, is it any wonder that they believe they have no opportunity! I would much rather give people who are willing to try a hand up, than a hand out.
Edited by covmutley on Thursday 11th May 16:47
covmutley said:
But you cant set out policies to the lowest common denominator. The reality is that we live in a free democracy with high social mobility, free education, a dynamic economy, freedom of choice etc etc.
There are plenty of examples of people who have achieved something great from having nothing. Is it harder for that type of person to succeed? sure, but it is up to hem to make the best of their opportunities.
If people cannot get on with their lives and make their life a reasonable success in the 5th largest economy then they are, I'm afraid, losers.
I appreciate there will be people with heath problems, mental health problems etc who need support. Absolutely we should help these people.
But we shouldn't base our economy and our policies on making those who can be bothered to try pay for those who cannot, in the false (leftist elite) belief that they have had no opportunities in life.
And If we always tell these people that they have had no opportunities, is it any wonder that they believe they have no opportunity! I would much rather give people who are willing to try a hand up, than a hand out.
More people are trapped in relative poverty than will ever find their way out.There are plenty of examples of people who have achieved something great from having nothing. Is it harder for that type of person to succeed? sure, but it is up to hem to make the best of their opportunities.
If people cannot get on with their lives and make their life a reasonable success in the 5th largest economy then they are, I'm afraid, losers.
I appreciate there will be people with heath problems, mental health problems etc who need support. Absolutely we should help these people.
But we shouldn't base our economy and our policies on making those who can be bothered to try pay for those who cannot, in the false (leftist elite) belief that they have had no opportunities in life.
And If we always tell these people that they have had no opportunities, is it any wonder that they believe they have no opportunity! I would much rather give people who are willing to try a hand up, than a hand out.
Edited by covmutley on Thursday 11th May 16:47
What about people with s
tty parents? My mum works in a school on a st estate and half the kids don't get fed properly, their homes aren't kept clean or secure so they're often ill, tired, poorly clothed and occasionally the victims of abuse. They are not losers, they are at an enormous disadvantage from the get go. On the other hand my parents helped me with my homework, encouraged me to succeed and gave me everything needed to do so. Some kids raise themselves in s
t conditions and you expect them to turn out the same as me based on having the same opportunities which they clearly don't have?I'm far from a lefty, I agree we are not all equal but at the same time not all of us have equal opportunities in life either.
Oh and free education? Aren't uni fees going up to £9300 this year?
djc206 said:
More people are trapped in relative poverty than will ever find their way out.
What about people with stty parents? My mum works in a school on a st estate and half the kids don't get fed properly, their homes aren't kept clean or secure so they're often ill, tired, poorly clothed and occasionally the victims of abuse. They are not losers, they are at an enormous disadvantage from the get go.
On the other hand my parents helped me with my homework, encouraged me to succeed and gave me everything needed to do so. Some kids raise themselves in st conditions and you expect them to turn out the same as me based on having the same opportunities which they clearly don't have?
I'm far from a lefty, I agree we are not all equal but at the same time not all of us have equal opportunities in life either.
Oh and free education? Aren't uni fees going up to £9300 this year?
Thing is that's a slippery slope down to "anyone failing to do well in life must be due to things outside their control" and it becomes impossible to distinguish who would benefit massively from help and who would just be taking advantage of it. What about people with s
tty parents? My mum works in a school on a st estate and half the kids don't get fed properly, their homes aren't kept clean or secure so they're often ill, tired, poorly clothed and occasionally the victims of abuse. They are not losers, they are at an enormous disadvantage from the get go. On the other hand my parents helped me with my homework, encouraged me to succeed and gave me everything needed to do so. Some kids raise themselves in s
t conditions and you expect them to turn out the same as me based on having the same opportunities which they clearly don't have?I'm far from a lefty, I agree we are not all equal but at the same time not all of us have equal opportunities in life either.
Oh and free education? Aren't uni fees going up to £9300 this year?
Best thing you can do is put the mechanisms in place for the motivated people to help themselves.
Uni fees don't count, it's a loan not an upfront fee, with the best terms you'll ever get - don't pay until you earn enough to afford it, if you don't earn enough to clear it in 30(?) years it's written off!
Venturist said:
Thing is that's a slippery slope down to "anyone failing to do well in life must be due to things outside their control" and it becomes impossible to distinguish who would benefit massively from help and who would just be taking advantage of it.
Best thing you can do is put the mechanisms in place for the motivated people to help themselves.
Uni fees don't count, it's a loan not an upfront fee, with the best terms you'll ever get - don't pay until you earn enough to afford it, if you don't earn enough to clear it in 30(?) years it's written off!
It's only a slippery slope if you grossly oversimplify things and only think in black and white.Best thing you can do is put the mechanisms in place for the motivated people to help themselves.
Uni fees don't count, it's a loan not an upfront fee, with the best terms you'll ever get - don't pay until you earn enough to afford it, if you don't earn enough to clear it in 30(?) years it's written off!
I think we have a responsibility to motivate people to work and succeed. The more we incentivise work the less it costs us in the long run. Of course a huge number of people are lazy entitled wasters but there are no doubt millions who haven't realised their potential thanks to s
t parenting or living in sink estates where a vicious cycle of despondency and dependency is prevalent.They bloody well do. The interest rate on my student loan was 0% or thereabouts, they're now going to be on a sliding scale from RPI up to RPI plus 3% for someone earning £41k+. 4.6% on a £40k loan is a lot of money, £150/month just to service the debt. Don't pay until you can afford it? They take 9% of everything once you earn £21k or more which is a very low wage to start deductions at in my opinion, there should at the very least be a sliding scale for % deducted.
djc206 said:
They bloody well do. The interest rate on my student loan was 0% or thereabouts, they're now going to be on a sliding scale from RPI up to RPI plus 3% for someone earning £41k+. 4.6% on a £40k loan is a lot of money, £150/month just to service the debt. Don't pay until you can afford it? They take 9% of everything once you earn £21k or more which is a very low wage to start deductions at in my opinion, there should at the very least be a sliding scale for % deducted.
I stand by my statement, you can't look at it like a normal debt. Does it even affect your credit rating? You can't default on it, so if you lose your job it goes away until you're back on your feet; get a pay cut and it reduces automatically; the payment is a fixed percentage of your income; the debt is written off after a period of time regardless of whether you clear it or not; and on top of that it's PAYE so it never even lands in your pocket in the first place which psychologically makes it easier to budget with, it's more like a tax. A tax to pay for a service, now paid primarily by the people who use that service. Can you imagine if you had those terms on a mortgage?!
It's incredibly short sighted and frustratingly stubborn to say "I can't afford to go to university". I literally can't picture a fairer system.
Venturist said:
I stand by my statement, you can't look at it like a normal debt. Does it even affect your credit rating? You can't default on it, so if you lose your job it goes away until you're back on your feet; get a pay cut and it reduces automatically; the payment is a fixed percentage of your income; the debt is written off after a period of time regardless of whether you clear it or not; and on top of that it's PAYE so it never even lands in your pocket in the first place which psychologically makes it easier to budget with, it's more like a tax. A tax to pay for a service, now paid primarily by the people who use that service.
Can you imagine if you had those terms on a mortgage?!
It's incredibly short sighted and frustratingly stubborn to say "I can't afford to go to university". I literally can't picture a fairer system.
I don't oppose fees I reckon they got it right at about £3k/yr, there was reasonable prospect of the amount being repaid. At £9k+ they simply aren't going to get their money back with an RPI rather than base rate interest charge applied in quite a few cases rendering the fees and 30 year debt pointless. Asking people to take on £40k of debt to become teachers, paramedics, nurses, social workers etc is daft, the numbers don't work. By all means charge people £9k to study sociology or any other Mickey Mouse degree but charge too much and you'll put people off. Can you imagine if you had those terms on a mortgage?!
It's incredibly short sighted and frustratingly stubborn to say "I can't afford to go to university". I literally can't picture a fairer system.
I did not feel like I got £9k per year of tuition and resources when I did my degree, thankfully I was only paying ~£1200.
My mortgage rate is considerably lower than 4.6%, in fact I think you'd be hard pushed to find a mortgage with that high a rate.
The system is reasonably fair regarding access agreed.
djc206 said:
My mortgage rate is considerably lower than 4.6%, in fact I think you'd be hard pushed to find a mortgage with that high a rate
The rate is effectively irrelevant unless you're doing well enough that you won't care anyway.I meant the terms - if "warning your home may be repossessed if you do not keep up repayments on your mortgage" became "warning, if you do not keep up repayments on your mortgage literally nothing will happen, and if you don't pay it off by the end you can still keep the house"
Venturist said:
djc206 said:
My mortgage rate is considerably lower than 4.6%, in fact I think you'd be hard pushed to find a mortgage with that high a rate
The rate is effectively irrelevant unless you're doing well enough that you won't care anyway.I meant the terms - if "warning your home may be repossessed if you do not keep up repayments on your mortgage" became "warning, if you do not keep up repayments on your mortgage literally nothing will happen, and if you don't pay it off by the end you can still keep the house"
The system has changed so much for the worse since I went through. My loan was fair, my fees were low, there's a happy middle ground somewhere between old and new.
Surely you would concede that RPI+3% is a f
king piss take?covmutley said:
But again, you are coming from the mindset that life in the UK is hard, the system is set against us etc. It isn't! Life shouldn't push you around, you should push back at life!
If you earn £41k, live like someone who earns £21k and pay the debt off completely in 2 years!!
No I'm not and no it's not.If you earn £41k, live like someone who earns £21k and pay the debt off completely in 2 years!!
Rework your numbers, you don't get to keep all that extra £20k, it would take 3 years minimum and £21k isn't really a livable wage in vast swathes of this country which takes us back to the point of this thread very nicely!
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