When child abuse isn't child abuse?

[Tiggsy]

cara van thing

It's the internet..what do you expect? I get called a soft liberal and you get called a child beating nut case.
oh..and i read your post and you could replace "smack" in you example with "alternative punishment" and it would still apply.....as such, you are left with a choice between two options that both work - i pick the one that doesnt involve hitting the kid and i'm curious as to why others do different.

Edited by Tiggsy on Friday 12th June 16:16

[Cara Van Man]

Tiggsy said:

cara van thing & child beating nut case.

[Cas_P]

Tiggsy said:

It's the internet..what do you expect? I get called a soft liberal and you get called a child beating nut case.

Your replies are so senseless and pathetic you are making me cringe, kind of like when I watch X-factor and they have the really really terrible people on the stage sounding like complete idiots...

So when I give my son a tap on the hand it's because he IS a badly behaved child generally, not because he is doing something naughty, or do you think children should be PERFECT and never do anything wrong whatsoever? otherwise they are bought up badly?

Ok. You hero.

[G_T]

Fittster said:

andy400 said:

1) Smoking whilst obviously pregnant. Could also apply to heavy drinking.

So you don't want her smoking or drinking because it damages the babies health. What about having an abortion, which doesn't do the baby much good?

28 weeks is the UK abortion limit. At this point it is very much Foetus not a baby. Technically speaking it is not a baby until birth.

I know I sound like I'm being pedantic but it is a touchy subject and correct terminology is very important.

[EINSIGN]

asbo said:

Tiggsy said:

chippy17 said:

smacking; the lack of smacking/'clip round the ear' is part of what has turned our children into disaffected disrespectful oiks

no it's not.....THINK it through.

there are plenty of middle class families that dont smack and the kids are fine. Mine are hardly ever smacked, and i mean almost never, and they are fine.......however, you go and find some of these nasty "oiks" you refer to and i'll bet they HAVE been smacked - in fact, i would suggest the level of smacking rises as the quality of the kids on the streets falls.......all smacking does is teaches kids that hitting out is an acceptable punishmnet. It's primary beniift to the adult is to make them feel better/vent. Go talk to some of the knife carrying thugs on the street and the odds are they have seen the business end of their dads/stepdads/mums boyfrineds belt plenty!

I think many will disagree with that.

How can you disagree, TIGGSY is correct.

[ali_kat]

Tiggsy said:

cara van thing

It's the internet..what do you expect? I get called a soft liberal and you get called a child beating nut case.

May I respectfully suggest that you learn to read?

In particular, this from CVM on Page 3, the last bit of if you have replied to already (that I have put in bold).

Once you have read it properly, go away and think about what he might mean, and then come back and apologise for what you have called him above!!!

Cara Van Man said:

You don't seem to be able to differentiate between discipline and violence.

How odd. You accuse people of lashing out, when they have quite cleasrly explained that a 'light tap on the legs' can be used effectively as a way of disciplining a child.

I rarely smack my daughter, but if I have tried all means possible to correct her behaviour and they have failed, I will threaten her with a smacked bum. The mere threat often works. It's a good last resort for a parent to have in their 'armoury' as long as it's controlled and not because of anger.

[b]I know the difference between discipline and abuse. I've been there in ways you've probably not encountered.

So don't preach to me that a small smack or a clip around the ear is abuse. It's not.[/b]

Getting kicked until you piss yourself is.

[drivin_me_nuts]

It is interesting though how we perceive hitting a child (I struggle with finding a non emotive word for placing your hand on a child to show a disapproving attitude / behaviour... is there one?)

Physical discipline has its place but the day that you hit a child and the child stands there and laughs at you, is insolent and argues back , or faces you up and you react is the day that that child changes.

For sure, pyhsical discipline has its place but use it more than sparingly and its power as a media of control is lost. (as for someone on this post using terms like it being a "weapon" .. fascinating)

Physical violence comes up as a strong memory quite often in the work that I do. What is sometimes not appreciated by some is that even though the adult may have good reason to administer punishment, what the child grown into an adult forgets is the context. Hence the grown up child is left with beliefs and highly charged memories like "I remember my father beating me..." The context gets lost, the memory and all highly emotive charge surrounding it remains unresolved. It can be very difficult to rationalise those thoughts as an adult - the adult asks "why" and does not find the answer the child needs..

It can be tough being a parent; damned if they do and damned if they don't.

[Cara Van Man]

drivin_me_nuts said:

It is interesting though how we perceive hitting a child (I struggle with finding a non emotive word for placing your hand on a child to show a disapproving attitude / behaviour... is there one?)

Physical discipline has its place but the day that you hit a child and the child stands there and laughs at you, is insolent and argues back , or faces you up and you react is the day that that child changes.

For sure, pyhsical discipline has its place but use it more than sparingly and its power as a media of control is lost. (as for someone on this post using terms like it being a "weapon" .. fascinating)

Totally agree. I used the phrase "weapon for the armoury" and even put in brackets 'wrong choice of words' because it's not the phrase I wanted to use but couldn't think of anything more apt at the time. It was literal. I can count the number of times i have smacked our kids on one hand (no pun intended). This is because the threat of the smack is enough to get their attention and bring them out of their tantrum or bad behaviour.
I make it clear I will go through with this action if they do not comply.

It's pointless bluffing as next time they will laugh in my face. This doesn't happen.

Both me and my wife totally agree on this, but only as a last resort.

Edited by Cara Van Man on Friday 12th June 17:43

[Justayellowbadge]

drivin_me_nuts said:

Physical violence comes up as a strong memory quite often in the work that I do. What is sometimes not appreciated by some is that even though the adult may have good reason to administer punishment, what the child grown into an adult forgets is the context. Hence the grown up child is left with beliefs and highly charged memories like "I remember my father beating me..." The context gets lost, the memory and all highly emotive charge surrounding it remains unresolved. It can be very difficult to rationalise those thoughts as an adult - the adult asks "why" and does not find the answer the child needs..

I can recall the odd slap on the legs or hand as a nipper. I'd suggest that was very, very, different from being beaten.

[Cara Van Man]

Justayellowbadge said:

drivin_me_nuts said:

Physical violence comes up as a strong memory quite often in the work that I do. What is sometimes not appreciated by some is that even though the adult may have good reason to administer punishment, what the child grown into an adult forgets is the context. Hence the grown up child is left with beliefs and highly charged memories like "I remember my father beating me..." The context gets lost, the memory and all highly emotive charge surrounding it remains unresolved. It can be very difficult to rationalise those thoughts as an adult - the adult asks "why" and does not find the answer the child needs..

I can recall the odd slap on the legs or hand as a nipper. I'd suggest that was very, very, different from being beaten.

Yes. I remember the difference between a smack on the legs, a spoon across the knuckles and what I also had to contend with.

[andthensome]

I saw a girl outside the pub last night who said she was 4 months pregnant

With a fag on

i actually fear for the child

[Cara Van Man]

andthensome said:

I saw a girl outside the pub last night who said she was 4 months pregnant

With a fag on

i actually fear for the child

and with good reason. If she has that level of respect for the child now, what will she have in 3 years?

[Jesus TF Christ]

Cara Van Man said:

andthensome said:

I saw a girl outside the pub last night who said she was 4 months pregnant

With a fag on

i actually fear for the child

and with good reason. If she has that level of respect for the child now, what will she have in 3 years?

I was in the pub a couple of weeks ago chatting to a girl I vaguely know. I offered her a drink and she said she couldn't as she was pregnant. She then asked me for a light!
Stupid bint. I packed her off home and told her to sort her life and priorities out.

[Zen.]

drivin_me_nuts said:

Physical violence comes up as a strong memory quite often in the work that I do. What is sometimes not appreciated by some is that even though the adult may have good reason to administer punishment, what the child grown into an adult forgets is the context. Hence the grown up child is left with beliefs and highly charged memories like "I remember my father beating me..." The context gets lost, the memory and all highly emotive charge surrounding it remains unresolved. It can be very difficult to rationalise those thoughts as an adult - the adult asks "why" and does not find the answer the child needs..

My eldest daughter was subjected to some very traumatic and violent abuse, it in no way compares to a short sharp smack on the hand or back of the legs, to suggest it does rather diminishes what abuse really consists of.

[drivin_me_nuts]

Zen. said:

drivin_me_nuts said:

Physical violence comes up as a strong memory quite often in the work that I do. What is sometimes not appreciated by some is that even though the adult may have good reason to administer punishment, what the child grown into an adult forgets is the context. Hence the grown up child is left with beliefs and highly charged memories like "I remember my father beating me..." The context gets lost, the memory and all highly emotive charge surrounding it remains unresolved. It can be very difficult to rationalise those thoughts as an adult - the adult asks "why" and does not find the answer the child needs..

My eldest daughter was subjected to some very traumatic and violent abuse, it in no way compares to a short sharp smack on the hand or back of the legs, to suggest it does rather diminishes what abuse really consists of.

I am not diminishing abuse in any way shape or form.

Abuse is not just a set of actions. It is equally as much about how you perceive them to be. People feel "abused" by being smacked just once - it is the context that creates the sense of abuse. Likewise people have been raped and do not consider that abuse - again context, belief and perception play their part.

But like I said, I do not diminish the impact of abuse. far from it in fact.

[Zen.]

drivin_me_nuts said:

Likewise people have been raped and do not consider that abuse - again context, belief and perception play their part.

You appear to be meeting very different people to me, all the men and women I've met who have been subjected to rape all acknowlege they have been abused both in a physical and emotional way.

[justayellowbadge]

drivin_me_nuts said:

People feel "abused" by being smacked just once

They have other issues unrelated to the smack if that is the case.

[drivin_me_nuts]

Zen. said:

drivin_me_nuts said:

Likewise people have been raped and do not consider that abuse - again context, belief and perception play their part.

You appear to be meeting very different people to me, all the men and women I've met who have been subjected to rape all acknowlege they have been abused both in a physical and emotional way.

acknowledge the events, don't consider it abuse. For many reasons including the labelling that society places on abuse and victim. To be "abused" normally infers being a "victim". To be a victim, that removes control.

There are many ways to resolve the issues surrounding rape and abuse. Does labelling help? TBO I really don't think so. Deal with the issues yes, labelling... No

Edited by drivin_me_nuts on Friday 12th June 21:51

[ali_kat]

drivin_me_nuts said:

Zen. said:

drivin_me_nuts said:

Physical violence comes up as a strong memory quite often in the work that I do. What is sometimes not appreciated by some is that even though the adult may have good reason to administer punishment, what the child grown into an adult forgets is the context. Hence the grown up child is left with beliefs and highly charged memories like "I remember my father beating me..." The context gets lost, the memory and all highly emotive charge surrounding it remains unresolved. It can be very difficult to rationalise those thoughts as an adult - the adult asks "why" and does not find the answer the child needs..

My eldest daughter was subjected to some very traumatic and violent abuse, it in no way compares to a short sharp smack on the hand or back of the legs, to suggest it does rather diminishes what abuse really consists of.

I am not diminishing abuse in any way shape or form.

Abuse is not just a set of actions. It is equally as much about how you perceive them to be. People feel "abused" by being smacked just once - it is the context that creates the sense of abuse. Likewise people have been raped and do not consider that abuse - again context, belief and perception play their part.

But like I said, I do not diminish the impact of abuse. far from it in fact.

It doesn't read like that

There is a great deal of difference between
a smack
discipline
and
being beaten

A smack generally conjours up the idea of something done with the flat of the hand; it doesn't inflict much pain, usually it is a stinging sensation; a short sharp shock to the system; causing the area hit to become reddened if the blow is too hard. Rarely will it cause injury (apart from pride) - unless done across the face when it can cause a split lip. Although very few parents would slap their child across the face!

Discipline generally conjours up the thought of more different actions; be it being grounded, the slipper, the cane, sent to bed with no dinner, the removal of priviledges... or a smack.

Being beaten is something that mostly is associated with extreme violence.

All 3 are very different, although the first is used as discipline.

I doubt very much that a person that has been smacked once considers themselves 'abused'; if they do then as JAYB says - they have much bigger issues.

drivin_me_nuts said:

Zen. said:

drivin_me_nuts said:

Likewise people have been raped and do not consider that abuse - again context, belief and perception play their part.

You appear to be meeting very different people to me, all the men and women I've met who have been subjected to rape all acknowlege they have been abused both in a physical and emotional way.

acknowledge the events, don't consider it abuse. For many reasons including the labelling that society places on abuse and victim. To be "abused" normally infers being a "victim". To be a victim removes control.

People that have been raped DO consider themselves abused. If they do not; again, they have much bigger issues left from the experience to deal with.

Of course they are victims - of course their control has been removed - WTF do you think rape is?

Edited by ali_kat on Friday 12th June 21:52

[fluffnik]

Jesus TF Christ said:

Ritual circumcision.

Mutilating a child's genitalia to satisfy the superstitions of the parents is definitely abuse.