Shotgun Safe - Metal Key or Numeric Keycode?
Discussion
Looking at getting a shotgun safe, but got a couple of questions. I know there's some clay shooters on here who may be able to help.
i) What's the difference between a "shotgun cabinet" and a "shotgun safe"?
ii) Would you recommend a key safe (i.e. has a key and keyhole), or a keycode safe? (i.e. a numeric code entry pad) Bearing in mind the price differential.
iii) If you use a key safe, then how do you keep your keys secure? I don't like the idea of a key safe because although they are cheaper I can't see how to make my key for the shotgun safe secure, except by putting it in a keycode safe!
Cheers
i) What's the difference between a "shotgun cabinet" and a "shotgun safe"?
ii) Would you recommend a key safe (i.e. has a key and keyhole), or a keycode safe? (i.e. a numeric code entry pad) Bearing in mind the price differential.
iii) If you use a key safe, then how do you keep your keys secure? I don't like the idea of a key safe because although they are cheaper I can't see how to make my key for the shotgun safe secure, except by putting it in a keycode safe!
Cheers
Kuroblack350 said:
They're largely the same in my experience - secure storage, unless you're talking about ornamental cabinets which are a differenet (and expensive) ballgame.
I went for a Brattonsound 5-7, which despite it's name will only fit three scoped rifles comfortably with enough room for a few extras on the top shelf. With shotties, you'll another in at least - best bit of advice is overspec it, you will use it at some point
Mine is a simple key driven system, one key is on my keyring, the other stored in a locked drawer at work. You may find that keypad safes have a key backup anyway, so you'll still have a storage problem.
If you have another safe for ammunition (not legally required for shotties IIRC - but highly recommended) then put your spare key in there, and make that a keycode variety. (it can be much smaller and more easily hidden, and can be had for £30-40 or so.)
Yes, I've had advice from pretty much everyone, including the police who did my interview, to oversize the storage vs. what you think you'll want short term as it will be used eventually!I went for a Brattonsound 5-7, which despite it's name will only fit three scoped rifles comfortably with enough room for a few extras on the top shelf. With shotties, you'll another in at least - best bit of advice is overspec it, you will use it at some point
Mine is a simple key driven system, one key is on my keyring, the other stored in a locked drawer at work. You may find that keypad safes have a key backup anyway, so you'll still have a storage problem.
If you have another safe for ammunition (not legally required for shotties IIRC - but highly recommended) then put your spare key in there, and make that a keycode variety. (it can be much smaller and more easily hidden, and can be had for £30-40 or so.)
With your key driven safe, does it require both keys or just one? I'm assuming that the one at work isn't part of a dual lock system, it's just a spare key and in fact you can get in your cabinet using just the one key on your keyring? If that's the case are you not worried about the security of your keys? I think it would worry me, but I don't know if I'm being unreasonable or not.
Your other idea about getting a big key driven safe for the shotgun and then keeping the key in a coded safe is one of my potential plans.. but if I'm doing that then it might work out cheaper/more convenient to just get a coded shotgun safe as it would be a simpler system.
Ok, say I wanted a 5 shotgun capacity to allow for a future collection.
The cheapest BS7558 compliant gun cabinet uses keys and costs £161.94
http://www.thesafeshop.co.uk/products/4-5-gun-cabi...
But I'd probably want a code safe for the keys. Now I assume this doesn't need to be BS7558 because you guys are telling me you don't actually have to lock the keys up at all? If that's the case then the cheapest one is a "Yale Budget Safe" for £35.99
http://www.thesafeshop.co.uk/products/yale-budget-...
Total cost = £161.94 + £35.99 = £197.93
The alternative would be a 5 shotgun safe which uses a key code. I didn't find any 5 gun versions, the cheapest keypad gun safe is £467.99 and stores 10.
http://www.thesafeshop.co.uk/products/buffalo-rive...
It does have the advantage of being much bigger than the 5 gun cabinet above, but it's a heck of a price jump.
What would your thoughts be on these two options? The former is definitely the least cost option, whilst remaining legal. The latter gives more space and is a simpler system, but is a lot more expensive. (To make things comparable, if I wanted the extra space there's a 9 gun cabinet for £215 which would total £251 including the budget combination safe. Still over £200 cheaper than the big boy buffalo river.)
The cheapest BS7558 compliant gun cabinet uses keys and costs £161.94
http://www.thesafeshop.co.uk/products/4-5-gun-cabi...
But I'd probably want a code safe for the keys. Now I assume this doesn't need to be BS7558 because you guys are telling me you don't actually have to lock the keys up at all? If that's the case then the cheapest one is a "Yale Budget Safe" for £35.99
http://www.thesafeshop.co.uk/products/yale-budget-...
Total cost = £161.94 + £35.99 = £197.93
The alternative would be a 5 shotgun safe which uses a key code. I didn't find any 5 gun versions, the cheapest keypad gun safe is £467.99 and stores 10.
http://www.thesafeshop.co.uk/products/buffalo-rive...
It does have the advantage of being much bigger than the 5 gun cabinet above, but it's a heck of a price jump.
What would your thoughts be on these two options? The former is definitely the least cost option, whilst remaining legal. The latter gives more space and is a simpler system, but is a lot more expensive. (To make things comparable, if I wanted the extra space there's a 9 gun cabinet for £215 which would total £251 including the budget combination safe. Still over £200 cheaper than the big boy buffalo river.)
Dusty964 said:
What is the problem with having a key operated safe, and keeping the key on your key ring?
The potential problem is that if you leave your keys on a table whilst you're in the house it means that pretty much anyone in the house could get access to the safe as all they'd need to get in are the keys. This means guests, wives, kids, workmen and thieves.If these people were unsupervised in part of your home and chose to steal your wallet it might be a pain to sort out your cards etc etc, but if they got access to your gun then I think you'd have far bigger problems to worry about than just calling your bank and insurers to replace your wallet.
So in my mind I'm currently thinking it needs to be more secure than my wallet and car keys. Hence the thread, to try to benchmark my thinking against other people to see if they agree with me or can persuade me I'm wrong.
Dusty964 said:
Your wife will already know that you have guns. So will your kids. I'm not trying to knock your views, but it smacks of paranoia.
Of course they will know, and if they got the keys they may then have access.But with a key code then so long as I don't share the code I can be sure no one but me has access to the shotgun safe, even if my bunch of keys are out of sight. Is that really being paranoid?
McSam said:
If you are honestly that concerned about your wife, kids or guests gaining access to your shotgun cabinet, it shouldn't be in your house. Simple as that!
I don't agree with that. The policeman made it very clear that it's illegal for me to allow anyone else to get access to the shotgun. I may be right or wrong, but it seemed to me that leaving the key on a bunch in plain sight would count as 'allowing'.McSam said:
I really don't see any problem with keeping one key with your others on the ring - which obviously I like to keep an eye on anyway.. - and the other locked away somewhere.
Keep your keys on your bedside table at night, or if you're really that paranoid lock them away with the spare.
Think about it. The chances of you encountering someone who is in your house, feels the need to steal your keys, actually considers using your keys while still in the house, finds your shotgun cabinet, has any sort of desire to start committing this level of crime, finds the correct key for it, takes a shotgun, manages to find any ammunition, and then has any intention of using it.. are the square root of f
k all!
The above is probably a fair point though.Keep your keys on your bedside table at night, or if you're really that paranoid lock them away with the spare.
Think about it. The chances of you encountering someone who is in your house, feels the need to steal your keys, actually considers using your keys while still in the house, finds your shotgun cabinet, has any sort of desire to start committing this level of crime, finds the correct key for it, takes a shotgun, manages to find any ammunition, and then has any intention of using it.. are the square root of f
k all!Dusty964 said:
Yes- you are assuming that you wife, your kids, friends and of course the workmen would all relish the opportunity to clear your gun safe if you left a key laying around.
As someone else has said, if you are that worried,you don't have a gun in the house.
It's not that I think it's likely at all. Just that I'd probably feel better if it were "impossible" rather than just "unlikely".As someone else has said, if you are that worried,you don't have a gun in the house.
djfaulkner said:
Are you allowed/supposed to keep the ammo and the guns in the same safe?
If not, then if money allows you could get both a numeric and a key safe
Only ask as when I was growing up a neighbour kept a gun and he had two safes one for ammo and another guns.
No, there's no special rules on shotgun cartridges regards how they are stored. You could just put them in a cardboard box on a shelf if you wanted.If not, then if money allows you could get both a numeric and a key safe
Only ask as when I was growing up a neighbour kept a gun and he had two safes one for ammo and another guns.
But you're right there are indeed special rules for section 1 firearms ammunition though. That covers pretty much anything which isn't a shotgun, and so will cover rifles and hand guns. I think they need to be stored separately from the gun and you need to keep records about what you buy and what you use etc. None of that applies to a shotgun though.
That said, it's not going to be a bad thing to keep the shotgun cartridges locked up as well. Although it's legally unnecessary I'd probably use the internal locking compartment for the shotgun carts, since many shotgun safes are also suitable for storing rifles and so they have this extra compartment for the section 1 ammo. (Since the internal compartment meets the definition of "separate" for the section 1 stuff.)
Ok, cheers for the advice chaps. I think I'm personally going to feel better about the keypad so that's what I'll do.
Question still remains though, should I;
1. get a big 10 gun keypad safe and use the internal compartment for cartridges? c£470 (Don't mind keeping the internal compartment key on my keyring as it's useless until you're into the safe.)
Or should I
2. go for the cheaper option of a compliant cabinet for the shotguns and then a separate combination safe for the cabinet key and cartridges? c£200
Part of me is thinking go for the big 10 gun job, because then I can use it for storing other valuables etc too as there will be spare space inside. (i.e. I could store my wifes valuables for her too, but I couldn't tell her the code of course so would just fetch stuff when it was wanted.) Also, as has been said, if my hobby grows then I've space to grow into with the safe. The police guy also said something like "a safe is a lifetime item", which is a good point. So long as you keep the moisture out and maintain it it should last you for pretty much as long as you want it to.
I also don't fully understand the difference between a shotgun cabinet and a shotgun safe. Both would be BS7558 compliant, and therefore legal, but a safe sounds like it would be more secure for some reason. Anyone shed any light on the difference?
Cheers
Question still remains though, should I;
1. get a big 10 gun keypad safe and use the internal compartment for cartridges? c£470 (Don't mind keeping the internal compartment key on my keyring as it's useless until you're into the safe.)
Or should I
2. go for the cheaper option of a compliant cabinet for the shotguns and then a separate combination safe for the cabinet key and cartridges? c£200
Part of me is thinking go for the big 10 gun job, because then I can use it for storing other valuables etc too as there will be spare space inside. (i.e. I could store my wifes valuables for her too, but I couldn't tell her the code of course so would just fetch stuff when it was wanted.) Also, as has been said, if my hobby grows then I've space to grow into with the safe. The police guy also said something like "a safe is a lifetime item", which is a good point. So long as you keep the moisture out and maintain it it should last you for pretty much as long as you want it to.
I also don't fully understand the difference between a shotgun cabinet and a shotgun safe. Both would be BS7558 compliant, and therefore legal, but a safe sounds like it would be more secure for some reason. Anyone shed any light on the difference?
Cheers
thismonkeyhere said:
nsi said:
difference between a shotgun cabinet and a shotgun safe.
Same thing, different name, shirley?http://www.thesafeshop.co.uk/gun-safes
(look at the first two sections)
Dusty964 said:
Why would you want to keep valuables in a gunsafe ?
The policeman said it would be a reasonable thing to do. A gun safe is still a safe, so why not?Dusty964 said:
Allow your paranoia to kick back in for a moment- when the workman realizes you have few valuables about the place, he twigs that you must have a safe. When he has threatened to smash your wife's skull with his hammer, you reluctantly tell him the code. He has a field day- jewelry and guns.
I think you are making this far harder than it needs to be.
I think you are taking the mickey. :PI think you are making this far harder than it needs to be.
Fish said:
I would never buy another shotgun cabinet as these generally have two locks with two separate keys and are a pain. Buy a rifle safe which has one locking handle and one key. These are much easier to use.
thismonkeyhere said:
Well there you go, it would appear to be to do with the type of locks. Mine is a cabinet. Brattonsound 2/3 gun - £119.95 on that site, got mine for £65 from Mole Valley - bargain!!
Yes, I think you're both on the money there - it's to do with the locking mechanism and a "safe" has only one key and would be easier to use.TIGA84 said:
It sounds like you're outlaying a hell of a lot of money to me, keys are totally safe, a brattonsound 5 gun safe would suffice perfectly, unless you go mad buying guns of course - how long have you been shooting?
As has been mentioned before - the likelyhood of someone breaking in and realising you have a gun safe (if they even know what one looks like)then finding the keys and then searching cartridges out, removing the snap caps, tkaing the safety off and then wanting to do you harm are non-existent, impossible.
If they wanted to shoot you, they'd already have a gun.
Also, no need to safehouse your cartridges, just keep them out of sight somewhere dry.
Been shooting for a little over 6 months using a friends shotgun (with him there) at an appropriate clay shooting venue. My license application is going through currently because I now want to look at getting some suitable storage and then my own shotgun later on. So then I can go clay shooting whenever I want, and could start to take my friends as guests too.As has been mentioned before - the likelyhood of someone breaking in and realising you have a gun safe (if they even know what one looks like)then finding the keys and then searching cartridges out, removing the snap caps, tkaing the safety off and then wanting to do you harm are non-existent, impossible.
If they wanted to shoot you, they'd already have a gun.
Also, no need to safehouse your cartridges, just keep them out of sight somewhere dry.
Regards my concern, it's not so much someone with bad intent getting at it to harm me, as you say there's plenty of ways to hurt me which are much easier! It's more to do with a curious child or a thief taking them and me getting into trouble over it.
If the code is in my head I don't have to worry about it being taken without me knowing, as would be the case if the keys were simply hidden.
markmullen said:
Also be aware of how you are going to store your guns, we kept ours in Peli cases for protection and to make it quicker loading each night to go training, we had a 10 gun cabinet which only just took 4 cased rifles, always better to go bigger than you imagine.
Fair comment. Most people I shoot with tend to transport them in the slip, so I'll probably just do that to be honest.WorAl said:
OP you are being paranoid.
Do the sensible thing, buy a key operated cabinet and hide the keys. It isn't difficult. If you're that botherd about it, save yourself the bother and keep your guns at the police station or local gun shop.
But, IMO, keys might be found so my gun would only be as safe as my key-hiding skills! Ok, if thinking that makes me paranoid in your opinion then I'll accept that, as this is clearly an area where personal judgement comes into it and not everyone will agree with each other. I did ask if I was being paranoid and you've given me an answer, so I can't criticise you for that! Do the sensible thing, buy a key operated cabinet and hide the keys. It isn't difficult. If you're that botherd about it, save yourself the bother and keep your guns at the police station or local gun shop.
But since a keypad lock makes me feel like I'll sleep better, it's what I'll do. Now just deciding what type of keypad to go for, i) the big keypad one or ii) the big metal key safe with the keys in a smaller keypad safe.The Moose said:
Is it just me thinking that a £35 keypad safe probably isn't the hardest thing in the world to crack?!
Well indeed, I was thinking about that too. Since the main safe has to be BS7558 then you'd think the one with the keys to it should meet the same standard? But apparently your keys don't need to be locked up at all, just hidden is enough according to several people on this thread. So with that in mind if you hide the mini safe then it wouldn't need to meet any standards. It's another thing which makes me think that just getting the big safe with the built in pad would be better, so the weakness of a small is not an issue.Snowboy said:
Get the wife a shotgun licence.
For £50 for 10 years (or whatever it is) it makes life a lot easier.
You can then legaly keep the keys in a hidden place that she knows about.
She can legally transport the guns.
If the wife doesn't have a licence it is illegal for her to know where the keys are and to have access to them.
That has apparently got a few people in trouble over the years.
Not a bad idea that. It's £50 for 5 years and the process for getting one is pretty straight forward. As you say she doesn't need to come shooting with me but it might come in handy for her to have the license so there's no problem with transporting or accessing them.For £50 for 10 years (or whatever it is) it makes life a lot easier.
You can then legaly keep the keys in a hidden place that she knows about.
She can legally transport the guns.
If the wife doesn't have a licence it is illegal for her to know where the keys are and to have access to them.
That has apparently got a few people in trouble over the years.
However this...
GC8 said:
The Moose said:
Is it just me thinking that a £35 keypad safe probably isn't the hardest thing in the world to crack?!
Indeed: just YouTube it! Hit with a rubber hammer, they shake open. Most YT videos will now be trying to bump them with the most obscure item - Ive seen it done with a potato!Now, does anyone know a less expensive shop than that one I linked to? It was just the first one on google to be honest. I noticed at least one poster saying he got stuff for less money somewhere else? (Not ebay.)
Found the big one (Buffalo River Q4310 LCD) for £409.98 delivered. Result
http://www.uttings.co.uk/Product/666/109102/buffal...
http://www.uttings.co.uk/Product/666/109102/buffal...
Leadfoot said:
"All LCD safes are also provided with two emergency keys that allow manual access"
So, 2 keys you still need to hide then....
Indeed, but they can be stored securely off site as they are not needed for day to day access, unlike a regular key operated safe, where the keys need to be kept "at hand".So, 2 keys you still need to hide then....
Gassing Station | The Lounge | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff