In sickness and in health...
Discussion
Yes it was.But she...cared for me in a way I didn't think she had in her.Went beyond keeping a promise into strange territory for both of us,and left a
very deep impression on me.If she ever gets ill,anywhere,then I'll be there to help,if she wants it.
Couldn't live with her though - no chance.
very deep impression on me.If she ever gets ill,anywhere,then I'll be there to help,if she wants it.
Couldn't live with her though - no chance.
RemainAllHoof said:
I agree in principle but if your partner is suffering a chronic illness and is always angry because of it, taking it out on you, how long will your love last?
Well, it is difficult but you know that they are not actually angry with you but simply taking it out on you because you are closest. It can be helpful to talk to them about not taking it out on you though when she's in a better mood, try to get them to understand it a little. And of course making it clear that you know that they are not really upset with you but just unwell....
I swore to in sickness and in health, but should my health decline, or I believe it's going into a serious decline, and I thought i'd be a burden, i'd check myself out.
I want my family to remember me as me, not something an illness has created, my memories of people lost are clouded by how I last remember seeing them, but that's just me I suppose.
I want my family to remember me as me, not something an illness has created, my memories of people lost are clouded by how I last remember seeing them, but that's just me I suppose.
True love knows no bounds. Very very true. You do what you do through love, because of the vows you make and the promises you make to yourself. You do it because the commitments you make are real and tangible and without condition or agenda.
You do it because you want to, not because you have to, not through a sense of duty, but through love.
You do it because you want to, not because you have to, not through a sense of duty, but through love.
Just a note on a little bit of a tangent here - and trust me, I know of which I speak - it is completely, utterly impossible to maintain a normal, healthy, equal relationship if one partner is forced by circumstance into providing fulltime care for the other.
This is not necessarily to say that such a relationship is doomed - look at our very own Russell and his Lily - but there is almost no hope at all of such a relationship not being profoundly.and irreversibly changed by it.
I'm not saying bail - quite the opposite. Get help. Lots of it. Early. If you want to preserve equality in a relationship where one partner has extensive care/support needs, then they need to be getting at least some of those needs met by someone who is not their partner. Doesn't matter if you're in your 20s or 30s like me and my girlfriend or in your 90th decade like my grandparents - if you're going to remain a team and be able to continue to run your lives together, you're going to have to make sure that you are not simultaneously becoming a fulltime, lifelong caregiver.
For Sarah and me(32 and 25), what that means is that all of my care needs (which are extensive) are met by a team of Personal Assistants who are employed directly by me, via an Individual Budget scheme from the council and the Independent Living Fund. Aside from the odd trivial helping hand, Sarah does no routine care for me - and that means that I can have a somewhat normal relationship with her, free from having any logistics of arsewiping tied up in it.
For my grandparents (80 and 82 at the time of my grandpa's death) that meant rallying a team of offspring, grandchildren and paid carers so that the limited faculties my grandpa still had (with Alzheimer's
) were preserved for being able to live in their home of 50 years and carry on pretty much as they always had done. The council care team were absolutely brilliant in the last few months of his life, and I think that his quality of life stayed very good because of that. Interestingly he was much better able to cope with being fed etc. by people other than my granny - not sure why, but it was very noticable, he was much less anxious if he could see that she was also sat down eating lunch (or whatever) at the same time as him.
Oops okay not a small note at all. In 7 years of employing my own care directly I've developed a fair bit of experience - if anybody wants to talk about this stuff privately please email me.
This is not necessarily to say that such a relationship is doomed - look at our very own Russell and his Lily - but there is almost no hope at all of such a relationship not being profoundly.and irreversibly changed by it.
I'm not saying bail - quite the opposite. Get help. Lots of it. Early. If you want to preserve equality in a relationship where one partner has extensive care/support needs, then they need to be getting at least some of those needs met by someone who is not their partner. Doesn't matter if you're in your 20s or 30s like me and my girlfriend or in your 90th decade like my grandparents - if you're going to remain a team and be able to continue to run your lives together, you're going to have to make sure that you are not simultaneously becoming a fulltime, lifelong caregiver.
For Sarah and me(32 and 25), what that means is that all of my care needs (which are extensive) are met by a team of Personal Assistants who are employed directly by me, via an Individual Budget scheme from the council and the Independent Living Fund. Aside from the odd trivial helping hand, Sarah does no routine care for me - and that means that I can have a somewhat normal relationship with her, free from having any logistics of arsewiping tied up in it.
For my grandparents (80 and 82 at the time of my grandpa's death) that meant rallying a team of offspring, grandchildren and paid carers so that the limited faculties my grandpa still had (with Alzheimer's
) were preserved for being able to live in their home of 50 years and carry on pretty much as they always had done. The council care team were absolutely brilliant in the last few months of his life, and I think that his quality of life stayed very good because of that. Interestingly he was much better able to cope with being fed etc. by people other than my granny - not sure why, but it was very noticable, he was much less anxious if he could see that she was also sat down eating lunch (or whatever) at the same time as him.Oops okay not a small note at all. In 7 years of employing my own care directly I've developed a fair bit of experience - if anybody wants to talk about this stuff privately please email me.
My father was diagnosed with MS in 1986, but it only really started to tell in about 1990. My father's doctor told him to "remove all the stress in his life", so he divorced my mother, sold his business and went off on his boat for as long as he was capable. At the time it was the best thing for him and for my mum too, although i don't think she saw it as such at the time.
However I suspect that 20 years later my dad may actually appreciate the company, even of my Mother
So the lessons i have learnt from this is that i have ensured that i have the best possible health insurance available with the maximum financial payouts for accidents and debilitating illnesses.
Money is not the be all and end all, but if you have the assurances that you and your partner are more than comfortably covered financially a huge portion of stress is removed from teh equation.
I have yet to test this theory mind you, and TBH, i will be happy if i never do!!
edit - and to the True Love knows no Bounds ... If i was the one with the illness, the thought of my wife giving up most of her current life to be my nurse for the rest of my life does not sit right to me. There are people who have chosen this as their vocation, and i would rather be in the position to be able to employ the necessary skilled people so that my wife can continue her normal life! (anyway the thought of her as a Nurse in any role other than looking kinky in the outfit is not a comforting one )
However I suspect that 20 years later my dad may actually appreciate the company, even of my Mother
So the lessons i have learnt from this is that i have ensured that i have the best possible health insurance available with the maximum financial payouts for accidents and debilitating illnesses.
Money is not the be all and end all, but if you have the assurances that you and your partner are more than comfortably covered financially a huge portion of stress is removed from teh equation.
I have yet to test this theory mind you, and TBH, i will be happy if i never do!!
edit - and to the True Love knows no Bounds ... If i was the one with the illness, the thought of my wife giving up most of her current life to be my nurse for the rest of my life does not sit right to me. There are people who have chosen this as their vocation, and i would rather be in the position to be able to employ the necessary skilled people so that my wife can continue her normal life! (anyway the thought of her as a Nurse in any role other than looking kinky in the outfit is not a comforting one
)Edited by XJSJohn on Tuesday 21st June 03:47
Interesting question.
When my younger sister was born my mother became very ill and stayed in hospital for several months whilst my father (with the help of my grandmother) went to work ever day and looked after us. I don't remember any tension or resentment on my father's part at the time (although maybe I was too young to notice), but I'm reminded of that period because my mother was diagnosed with diabetes a couple of years ago and has struggled to regulate her blood sugar ever since.
What I failed to appreciate about diabetes is how much it can affect a person's mood: my mother can be fine (if quiet) one minute and very angry the next (although, like a toddler, she can be calmed down with a biscuit or two!!). I certainly couldn't live with her day in, day out.
My answer as it pertains to this thread is that it surely must depend on both the circumstances in question and the individuals involved. In an ideal world every challenge in a relationship would be dealt with like an American TV movie: drama and tears, but never any doubt that the two people at the middle of it all would ever be apart. In practice, I sadly suspect that is not the case. How and why my parents stay together I can only guess.
When my younger sister was born my mother became very ill and stayed in hospital for several months whilst my father (with the help of my grandmother) went to work ever day and looked after us. I don't remember any tension or resentment on my father's part at the time (although maybe I was too young to notice), but I'm reminded of that period because my mother was diagnosed with diabetes a couple of years ago and has struggled to regulate her blood sugar ever since.
What I failed to appreciate about diabetes is how much it can affect a person's mood: my mother can be fine (if quiet) one minute and very angry the next (although, like a toddler, she can be calmed down with a biscuit or two!!). I certainly couldn't live with her day in, day out.
My answer as it pertains to this thread is that it surely must depend on both the circumstances in question and the individuals involved. In an ideal world every challenge in a relationship would be dealt with like an American TV movie: drama and tears, but never any doubt that the two people at the middle of it all would ever be apart. In practice, I sadly suspect that is not the case. How and why my parents stay together I can only guess.
I am at the other end of the spectrum, in so much that me and my new GF have only been dating for about 6-7 weeks, but we seem very down to earth about it all and seem quite taken with each other, which is a new experience for both of us after our previous relationships
Anyway, i have Cronhs disease, and while i dont have it as bad as some, it does make me a nervous person and less confident than i used to be. When we first me i was having a bit of a bad time of it, with cramps and not being very well, however it came to a head when we went to her friends party and i really wasn't well, getting rolling crippling stomach cramps and hadnt slept properly for about 4 days. we left the party at about 12 as we were both very tired (i actually fell asleep on the sofa haha!) but when we got to her car i started shivering but i was covering it up as i was in big coat, so she never noticed.
When we got to her house and i was sitting on the bed as she was making tea, she came in and straight out asked if i was okay, i said i was, she then said, no your not, do you need to go to hospital (apparently i had gone pale and was shivering violently!) i said i was fine just needed my bed, so she went to get the tea, then came back with a hot water bottle, she hadn't even realised she was in her underwear (we had only been going out about a week so we were still not expecting to be nearly naked in a bed together) she just gave me the bottle, then hugged me for about 10 mins until i stopped shivering.
I had spoken to her about my crohns and that i was worried if it became a problem she would leave me because of it, but we agreed to take it as each day comes, but i went to the docs the next day and got prescribed steroids, which have helped a lot, though i know it wont last, but it sometimes needs the big guns to settle it for a longer period.
She has stated she doesn't know how she will react to it if i have big issues with it, but she says i am worth staying with if i need the loo lots, or am unwell and dont want to go out sometimes. She said that it means she can cuddle me more haha.
But it is a worry that you may become a burden to someone, when they fell in love with a person that was different before, but people change, and relationships are fluid things.
We both seem very keen for each other (we are refusing to call it love until at least a reasonable amount of time has passed ) but we found the best way to have such a strong relationship is to be honest with each other, up front etc, she knows i am a shameless geek\car nut, and she understands this and accepts it
Anyway, i have Cronhs disease, and while i dont have it as bad as some, it does make me a nervous person and less confident than i used to be. When we first me i was having a bit of a bad time of it, with cramps and not being very well, however it came to a head when we went to her friends party and i really wasn't well, getting rolling crippling stomach cramps and hadnt slept properly for about 4 days. we left the party at about 12 as we were both very tired (i actually fell asleep on the sofa haha!) but when we got to her car i started shivering but i was covering it up as i was in big coat, so she never noticed.
When we got to her house and i was sitting on the bed as she was making tea, she came in and straight out asked if i was okay, i said i was, she then said, no your not, do you need to go to hospital (apparently i had gone pale and was shivering violently!) i said i was fine just needed my bed, so she went to get the tea, then came back with a hot water bottle, she hadn't even realised she was in her underwear (we had only been going out about a week so we were still not expecting to be nearly naked in a bed together) she just gave me the bottle, then hugged me for about 10 mins until i stopped shivering.
I had spoken to her about my crohns and that i was worried if it became a problem she would leave me because of it, but we agreed to take it as each day comes, but i went to the docs the next day and got prescribed steroids, which have helped a lot, though i know it wont last, but it sometimes needs the big guns to settle it for a longer period.
She has stated she doesn't know how she will react to it if i have big issues with it, but she says i am worth staying with if i need the loo lots, or am unwell and dont want to go out sometimes. She said that it means she can cuddle me more haha.
But it is a worry that you may become a burden to someone, when they fell in love with a person that was different before, but people change, and relationships are fluid things.
We both seem very keen for each other (we are refusing to call it love until at least a reasonable amount of time has passed
) but we found the best way to have such a strong relationship is to be honest with each other, up front etc, she knows i am a shameless geek\car nut, and she understands this and accepts it I sincerely hope this doesn't upset or insult anyone who is suffering from a debilitating illness but I think if I ever end up in such a way that I can't enjoy life the way I'm used to, and cannot function without external support - I'll be checking myself out.
To be clear, I have massive amounts of respect for people who fight on, and try to maintain as much of their lives as possible, in the face of acute or debilitating illness.
I realise I may be appearing somewhat selfish here, but that's the way I feel.
To be clear, I have massive amounts of respect for people who fight on, and try to maintain as much of their lives as possible, in the face of acute or debilitating illness.
I realise I may be appearing somewhat selfish here, but that's the way I feel.
ApexJimi said:
I sincerely hope this doesn't upset or insult anyone who is suffering from a debilitating illness but I think if I ever end up in such a way that I can't enjoy life the way I'm used to, and cannot function without external support - I'll be checking myself out.
To be clear, I have massive amounts of respect for people who fight on, and try to maintain as much of their lives as possible, in the face of acute or debilitating illness.
I realise I may be appearing somewhat selfish here, but that's the way I feel.
You are not at all. We did not need (if 'need' is the right word here ..) to discuss that option wrt Dignitas, but I know full well that it was something we were both prepared to discuss and act upon if it ever came to that. IMO your choice to live or die is a deeply personal one and one that is not open to moral judgements and 'ethical' debate by those not in that position. To my mind, this choice is the most important freedom of expression that you could ever make: Your ultimate right to choose whether you live or die.To be clear, I have massive amounts of respect for people who fight on, and try to maintain as much of their lives as possible, in the face of acute or debilitating illness.
I realise I may be appearing somewhat selfish here, but that's the way I feel.
I recall the hardest day of my life. I recall that day vividly; when my lass asked me to end her suffering. I recoiled in abject grief at the request - it is not something you ever want to think about. But I would have not run from it, I would have done it if I had been given the needle and the drugs to do so. It pains me beyond all words to write this in ways I cannot begin to describe, it's an unbearable torture to watch the person you love suffer so very much, but yet again in answer to the OP's post, you do what ever it takes to support, to care, to be the carer.. what ever it takes, what ever it's called. You just do it.
To ans the op i suppose it's just something you just do if you care or love someone..
I have been helping care for my wife for 11 months now. It's not just the phsical side but he emotional side as well. This time last year we had no inkling she was 'ill' it 'still' feels as though she isn't but we have been told we'll be lucky to see another 4ish years. We know she is going to get steadily worse now which is something we have to try and accept and plan for but we intend to try and have the best time possible for as long as possible and that includes with the kids at all times.
For me just because the person your with is ill doesn't mean you should be 'selfish' (bad way of putting it ?) if they are going to be ill for more than a certain amount of time or x years. How do you even put a timescale on something like that ?
ApexJimi said:
I sincerely hope this doesn't upset or insult anyone who is suffering from a debilitating illness but I think if I ever end up in such a way that I can't enjoy life the way I'm used to, and cannot function without external support - I'll be checking myself out.
To be clear, I have massive amounts of respect for people who fight on, and try to maintain as much of their lives as possible, in the face of acute or debilitating illness.
I realise I may be appearing somewhat selfish here, but that's the way I feel.
I don't think that you're being selfish at all, but I do think that you're mistaken.To be clear, I have massive amounts of respect for people who fight on, and try to maintain as much of their lives as possible, in the face of acute or debilitating illness.
I realise I may be appearing somewhat selfish here, but that's the way I feel.
So much changes as you go through life and it's nigh on 100% of us who will experience disability and dependence on others as part of that journey - whether it's a few months for a previously hale and hearty 90 year old at the end of a long and busy life, 30 years with MS or a few years battle with cancer. Nothing that happens to your body changes your capacity to have a good time, love and be loved and the rest of it - I was so SO sure ten years ago that as soon as I couldn't make music any more, that would be it - the end of any purpose and value in my life. It happened - as I knew it would sooner or later - at teatime in late November 2007.
I went from being a disabled musician to an ex-musician in seconds with that final fall... but strangely enough I'm still here. I can't do many of the things that I would have sworn blind I couldn't live without, and I've put up with more systemic abuse than I had ever imagined (in a private nursing home) - but I'm here. I can still drive and enjoy being driven, laugh, love... honestly, the rest of it is trivia. All that stuff we think we couldn't live without? Pretty much meaningless.
If it happens to you (and I honestly hope it doesn't) you'll need some time and space and a bit of ingenuity but all the things that genuinely matter in your life won't have gone anywhere. Most people who kill themselves after becoming disabled do it within the first year - they never give themselves a chance to learn to live that changed life and I think it's a really terrible loss, a sort of epidemic really.
If I was ill would I want her to enjoy a happy life? More than anything. How would I want the relationship to end? After a serious discussion and with an understanding of why things were happening.
You cant judge other by your own standards. I would want to stay 100% however if the other person wanted me to enjoy life it would be a hard choice. I mean if they genuinely wanted you to live a happy life.
I know that I would want a partner to go.
You cant judge other by your own standards. I would want to stay 100% however if the other person wanted me to enjoy life it would be a hard choice. I mean if they genuinely wanted you to live a happy life.
I know that I would want a partner to go.
CrashTD said:
If I was ill would I want her to enjoy a happy life? More than anything. How would I want the relationship to end? After a serious discussion and with an understanding of why things were happening.
You cant judge other by your own standards. I would want to stay 100% however if the other person wanted me to enjoy life it would be a hard choice. I mean if they genuinely wanted you to live a happy life.
I know that I would want a partner to go.
You sound like you think it's not possible to be hapy and stay... You cant judge other by your own standards. I would want to stay 100% however if the other person wanted me to enjoy life it would be a hard choice. I mean if they genuinely wanted you to live a happy life.
I know that I would want a partner to go.
BlackVanDyke said:
ApexJimi said:
I sincerely hope this doesn't upset or insult anyone who is suffering from a debilitating illness but I think if I ever end up in such a way that I can't enjoy life the way I'm used to, and cannot function without external support - I'll be checking myself out.
To be clear, I have massive amounts of respect for people who fight on, and try to maintain as much of their lives as possible, in the face of acute or debilitating illness.
I realise I may be appearing somewhat selfish here, but that's the way I feel.
I don't think that you're being selfish at all, but I do think that you're mistaken.To be clear, I have massive amounts of respect for people who fight on, and try to maintain as much of their lives as possible, in the face of acute or debilitating illness.
I realise I may be appearing somewhat selfish here, but that's the way I feel.
So much changes as you go through life and it's nigh on 100% of us who will experience disability and dependence on others as part of that journey - whether it's a few months for a previously hale and hearty 90 year old at the end of a long and busy life, 30 years with MS or a few years battle with cancer. Nothing that happens to your body changes your capacity to have a good time, love and be loved and the rest of it - I was so SO sure ten years ago that as soon as I couldn't make music any more, that would be it - the end of any purpose and value in my life. It happened - as I knew it would sooner or later - at teatime in late November 2007.
I went from being a disabled musician to an ex-musician in seconds with that final fall... but strangely enough I'm still here. I can't do many of the things that I would have sworn blind I couldn't live without, and I've put up with more systemic abuse than I had ever imagined (in a private nursing home) - but I'm here. I can still drive and enjoy being driven, laugh, love... honestly, the rest of it is trivia. All that stuff we think we couldn't live without? Pretty much meaningless.
If it happens to you (and I honestly hope it doesn't) you'll need some time and space and a bit of ingenuity but all the things that genuinely matter in your life won't have gone anywhere. Most people who kill themselves after becoming disabled do it within the first year - they never give themselves a chance to learn to live that changed life and I think it's a really terrible loss, a sort of epidemic really.
driving me nuts and black van dyke
Thank you both. Incredible experience and strength of character.
My mum is in latter stages MS, with my dad as carer - with little external support
They stick together, fight, battle, cry. It is not pretty, it is not a soap opera - it is hard.
But it would be my definition of a true love. Not short term, not what is in it for them as individuals but living with the depth of feelings they have for each other.
My guilt of being 450 miles away and unable to support or help feels very selfish, but then I have my wife and children to support too. I hope we would have a similarly strength if something was to happen to us.
Not best expressed, but heart felt
Thank you both. Incredible experience and strength of character.
My mum is in latter stages MS, with my dad as carer - with little external support
They stick together, fight, battle, cry. It is not pretty, it is not a soap opera - it is hard.
But it would be my definition of a true love. Not short term, not what is in it for them as individuals but living with the depth of feelings they have for each other.
My guilt of being 450 miles away and unable to support or help feels very selfish, but then I have my wife and children to support too. I hope we would have a similarly strength if something was to happen to us.
Not best expressed, but heart felt
I'm not at the Lily point yet, but my fight with breast cancer is a bit one sided, shall we say. I also suffer from really bad clinical depression, and have for years. The combo of depression and cancer are not a happy marriage.
I have one tho - we've been together 38 years, and married most of that time. Since I was diagnosed 2 years back, David's had to carry me to the loo and lift me off it, help shower me, and beg me to eat and drink when I really didn't want to. He's put up with far more mental 'abuse' in the last 20 years than I could expect anyone to stand, and is now having to support me financially (harder for me than him, I think, having been equal earners for years).
People who know us well describe us varyingly as being 'the most married couple I know' to 'so as one it's unbelievable'. I don't know what it is that keeps him going - I ask and get told it's cos he loves me. And I know he does - don't ask me how - I just know. It hurts so much, I wonder how he'll cope without me - we've been together all of our adult lives and can't remember life without each other. He's now working from home so we can spend as much time as we've got together.
There's a saying somewhere I think that love makes the world go round - it sure does in our case.
I have one tho - we've been together 38 years, and married most of that time. Since I was diagnosed 2 years back, David's had to carry me to the loo and lift me off it, help shower me, and beg me to eat and drink when I really didn't want to. He's put up with far more mental 'abuse' in the last 20 years than I could expect anyone to stand, and is now having to support me financially (harder for me than him, I think, having been equal earners for years).
People who know us well describe us varyingly as being 'the most married couple I know' to 'so as one it's unbelievable'. I don't know what it is that keeps him going - I ask and get told it's cos he loves me. And I know he does - don't ask me how - I just know. It hurts so much, I wonder how he'll cope without me - we've been together all of our adult lives and can't remember life without each other. He's now working from home so we can spend as much time as we've got together.
There's a saying somewhere I think that love makes the world go round - it sure does in our case.
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