One for the PH Doctor's...faking a seizure
Discussion
it's hard to describe if you haven't seen a 'real' seizure ... the fakers look 'not right'
here are several tell tales of a fake
- lower themselves to the ground rather than just crumpleing ...
- manage not to reveal themselves if wearing a skirt
- eyes screwed tightly shut, obvious or unnatural response to painful stimuli
- regular movement
- spontaneous recovery or obvious faked post ictal 'confusion'
the 'arm drop test' is frowned upon because it tends to hurt those who are genuinely unconcious or post ictal
the really convincing fakers can do pretty good looking fits and some won't flinch when an airway is placed or painful stimulus is applied
- fakers never pee themselves, a lot fo real fitters do ...
here are several tell tales of a fake
- lower themselves to the ground rather than just crumpleing ...
- manage not to reveal themselves if wearing a skirt
- eyes screwed tightly shut, obvious or unnatural response to painful stimuli
- regular movement
- spontaneous recovery or obvious faked post ictal 'confusion'
the 'arm drop test' is frowned upon because it tends to hurt those who are genuinely unconcious or post ictal
the really convincing fakers can do pretty good looking fits and some won't flinch when an airway is placed or painful stimulus is applied
- fakers never pee themselves, a lot fo real fitters do ...
Thank you. This girl's pupils were equal and reactive during the seizure, plus she was lucid fairly quickly afterwards. Should this girl try it again what can I look for as she is 'seizing'? I know the proper protocal for a real seizure but what can I look/test for specificlly while doing this?
Again, many thanks.
Joe
Again, many thanks.
Joe
Lil' Joe said:
Thank you. This girl's pupils were equal and reactive during the seizure, plus she was lucid fairly quickly afterwards. Should this girl try it again what can I look for as she is 'seizing'? I know the proper protocal for a real seizure but what can I look/test for specificlly while doing this?
Again, many thanks.
Joe
Ill check tonight with my gf who is an A and E nurse. They do a special test i think.Again, many thanks.
Joe
I was driving around Canning Town a couple of months ago and saw a young woman slumped on the floor against a wall. Jumped out and went to her and she appeared to be having a lot of trouble breathing and lapsing in and out of consciousness. Rang 999, ambulance on the way, I knelt with her and held her hand, trying to say soothing things. By now a few other people started coming over, then a copper stopped (he was just passing) and got back onto the ambulance to hurry them up.
By now she appeared very bad and I was getting pretty scared, I thought she was slipping away to be honest.
Paramedics pulled up, spent a minute or so running through some checks with her and then one of them, in a pretty short tempered fashion, said "Come on open your eyes and sit up, you're not dying".
I was completely shocked! Copper looked at me and shrugged. She immediately seemed to recover a lot. I went on my way.
I can only assume she was obviously faking it or they knew her from a previous incident.
So clearly, the next time I see anyone collapsed on the floor, I shall just get out and give them a swift kick in the guts, bloody time wasters!
By now she appeared very bad and I was getting pretty scared, I thought she was slipping away to be honest.
Paramedics pulled up, spent a minute or so running through some checks with her and then one of them, in a pretty short tempered fashion, said "Come on open your eyes and sit up, you're not dying".
I was completely shocked! Copper looked at me and shrugged. She immediately seemed to recover a lot. I went on my way.
I can only assume she was obviously faking it or they knew her from a previous incident.
So clearly, the next time I see anyone collapsed on the floor, I shall just get out and give them a swift kick in the guts, bloody time wasters!
Well, I was diagnosed with epilepsy last March. I surrendered my license to the DVLA and wont get it back until the symptoms stop. I've had brain surgery twice in 10 years and surrendered my licence then as well.
If she is having a tonic clonic seizure (sometimes called grand mal seizures), then it can be quite scary to watch (ask my wife after I had one in the car and another in the middle of the night). During the first seizure, I had severe spasms and my muscles locked, I foamed at the mouth, pissed myself and chewed my tongue quite badly. When the paramedics finaly stopped it, I didn't know where I was, didn't recognise my wife and when my neighbour tried to steady me gave him a look that suggesed he better leave me alone or I was going to rip his head off - I'm usually very placcid). Basically I was f*cked. I didn't properly recover for 2 days and was in hospital for 3 before I got an MRI scan (I had a brain tumour removed 5 years ago, and the seizures may be due to scarring).
Anyway, as has been said before, if she collapsed and did do any of the above, then it may be real. If she "fell", then she is either faking or she may have fainted (you still have some control then - I fainted after recovering from anasthetic and didn't fully collapse (I felt fine beforehand and was heading to the toilet).
First of all, if it is genuine, then she should see her doctor. It may have been low blood sugar, alchohol or even a brain tumour - there can be many reasons for a seizure. Secondly, the DVLA should be informed. They may ask her to surrender her licence. If she refuses they will take it away. If she goes to her doctor, then he can't tell the DVLA due to doctor/patient privilege, but it does go on her medical record, so if she has an accident due to a blackout or seizure and the insurance company or the police request her records, then she has no insurance.
Finally, I've never been tempted to keep my license and not inform the DVLA. I've had to do it 3 times in ten years and had to sell a BMW coupe, an S2000 and a 350Z as a result. Its broken my heart each time, but that pales into insignificance as to how I would feel if I had a seizure at the wheel and killed a child, killed my wife if she was a passenger or caused a pile up on a motorway. I hate not being able to drive so I would pass this info to her and watch her reaction. Then you will know...
If she is having a tonic clonic seizure (sometimes called grand mal seizures), then it can be quite scary to watch (ask my wife after I had one in the car and another in the middle of the night). During the first seizure, I had severe spasms and my muscles locked, I foamed at the mouth, pissed myself and chewed my tongue quite badly. When the paramedics finaly stopped it, I didn't know where I was, didn't recognise my wife and when my neighbour tried to steady me gave him a look that suggesed he better leave me alone or I was going to rip his head off - I'm usually very placcid). Basically I was f*cked. I didn't properly recover for 2 days and was in hospital for 3 before I got an MRI scan (I had a brain tumour removed 5 years ago, and the seizures may be due to scarring).
Anyway, as has been said before, if she collapsed and did do any of the above, then it may be real. If she "fell", then she is either faking or she may have fainted (you still have some control then - I fainted after recovering from anasthetic and didn't fully collapse (I felt fine beforehand and was heading to the toilet).
First of all, if it is genuine, then she should see her doctor. It may have been low blood sugar, alchohol or even a brain tumour - there can be many reasons for a seizure. Secondly, the DVLA should be informed. They may ask her to surrender her licence. If she refuses they will take it away. If she goes to her doctor, then he can't tell the DVLA due to doctor/patient privilege, but it does go on her medical record, so if she has an accident due to a blackout or seizure and the insurance company or the police request her records, then she has no insurance.
Finally, I've never been tempted to keep my license and not inform the DVLA. I've had to do it 3 times in ten years and had to sell a BMW coupe, an S2000 and a 350Z as a result. Its broken my heart each time, but that pales into insignificance as to how I would feel if I had a seizure at the wheel and killed a child, killed my wife if she was a passenger or caused a pile up on a motorway. I hate not being able to drive so I would pass this info to her and watch her reaction. Then you will know...
Wow, moving stuff Douglas thank you fr sharing that. Unfortunately as I suspect she faked it for attention I feel threatening to tell the DVLA etc wouldn't work. Muchos respect to you for doing so though my friend, especislly with petrol flowing through your veins like the rest of us. That was a brave and mature decision, I salute you. If only everyone was so considerate.
Teebs,If you wouldn't mind, that test you mentioned is exactly what I was hoping for. She's done it twice to my knowledge ( faked a seizure), once after a break up with some geezer, and once at another girl's hen night all times when I think sh just wanted some attention, as that is what she always wants. I await your test info with interest...
Turbolucie, so an EEG can tell you about a real seizure say, 30 min's after the event? In my limited medical knowledge would not the brain activity gone back to normality by then, hence no proof, particular if not (what used to be called) a 'grand mal' seizure?
Thank you everyone for the help. If this girls seizure's are real then maybe I can actually help her. If not, I can out the liar.
Joe
Teebs,If you wouldn't mind, that test you mentioned is exactly what I was hoping for. She's done it twice to my knowledge ( faked a seizure), once after a break up with some geezer, and once at another girl's hen night all times when I think sh just wanted some attention, as that is what she always wants. I await your test info with interest...
Turbolucie, so an EEG can tell you about a real seizure say, 30 min's after the event? In my limited medical knowledge would not the brain activity gone back to normality by then, hence no proof, particular if not (what used to be called) a 'grand mal' seizure?
Thank you everyone for the help. If this girls seizure's are real then maybe I can actually help her. If not, I can out the liar.
Joe
Maybe play the sensitive card. i.e, you feel sorry for her, but you should get it checked, you may hurt yourself, you may drown in the bath (dont laugh, it does happen), you may have an accident when driving etc etc.
Also there is a serious risk to health if the seizure lasts more that 5 minutes. There is a risk of brain damage, but I believe that respiratory distress is the major factor. If she gets short of breath, call an ambulance.
www.epilepsy.org.uk is a good place for info.
Also there is a serious risk to health if the seizure lasts more that 5 minutes. There is a risk of brain damage, but I believe that respiratory distress is the major factor. If she gets short of breath, call an ambulance.
www.epilepsy.org.uk is a good place for info.
Lil' Joe said:
Wow, moving stuff Douglas thank you fr sharing that. Unfortunately as I suspect she faked it for attention I feel threatening to tell the DVLA etc wouldn't work. Muchos respect to you for doing so though my friend, especislly with petrol flowing through your veins like the rest of us. That was a brave and mature decision, I salute you. If only everyone was so considerate.
Teebs,If you wouldn't mind, that test you mentioned is exactly what I was hoping for. She's done it twice to my knowledge ( faked a seizure), once after a break up with some geezer, and once at another girl's hen night all times when I think sh just wanted some attention, as that is what she always wants. I await your test info with interest...
Turbolucie, so an EEG can tell you about a real seizure say, 30 min's after the event? In my limited medical knowledge would not the brain activity gone back to normality by then, hence no proof, particular if not (what used to be called) a 'grand mal' seizure?
Thank you everyone for the help. If this girls seizure's are real then maybe I can actually help her. If not, I can out the liar.
Joe
I'll get back to you this evening.Teebs,If you wouldn't mind, that test you mentioned is exactly what I was hoping for. She's done it twice to my knowledge ( faked a seizure), once after a break up with some geezer, and once at another girl's hen night all times when I think sh just wanted some attention, as that is what she always wants. I await your test info with interest...
Turbolucie, so an EEG can tell you about a real seizure say, 30 min's after the event? In my limited medical knowledge would not the brain activity gone back to normality by then, hence no proof, particular if not (what used to be called) a 'grand mal' seizure?
Thank you everyone for the help. If this girls seizure's are real then maybe I can actually help her. If not, I can out the liar.
Joe
douglasr said:
Maybe play the sensitive card. i.e, you may drown in the bath (dont laugh, it does happen), .
When I was a student in the last century, I rented a room in a house and the guy 2 doors down, was all burnt and scarred having fallen into an open fire whilst alone and having a fit. He had lost most of his fingers, half his face, and looked seriously damaged. Funny thing was though he was a really nice bloke. I too am in the club, and from what you say, would love to have the same 'kind' of fits this girl has! I found its not the fits that cause the problem but the 2-3 days it takes to get over it. I am extremely tired after fitting and have been known to sleep for 24 hrs solid, I too am dazed and confused, I often have no idea what day it is, where I am etc until a good hour or so afterwards. Sounds harsh but when she has a 'fit' try to hold her arm/leg down, don't be too strong but be firm. A fitting person has remakable strength and you will struggle to hold them down (this is not a good thing to do as it hurts holder and fitter) I have hit one of my brothers so hard, I knocked him clean out which was very confusing when I came round first! As mentioned, most of us piss ourselves and foam like rabid dogs, not a great look.
Do her fits happen to be in places where she can fall but not hurt herself? I have come round with all manner of strange bruises and cuts as I have just crumbled against stuff or on stuff.
I am very lucky, I get markers, smelling gas, hearing goes distant, other half sees my eyes going 'goggley' so can usually dissappear or at least get somewhere quiet but not always.
I would have my doubts as the these fits especially if she is reluctant to see a professional, it is something that personally, it want managed and checked for other causes. Trouble is, there is still a lot of wives-tales about fits and people are scared by what happens.
Wrap her in a flea-bitten blacket next time to 'protect her dignity' she will soon change her mind!
I can even drive, so its not all that bad, it just needs managing.
ETA: my EEG still shows 'irregularities' 36 hrs after the fit but not sure if this is visable in everyone or I just take along time to reset!
Do her fits happen to be in places where she can fall but not hurt herself? I have come round with all manner of strange bruises and cuts as I have just crumbled against stuff or on stuff.
I am very lucky, I get markers, smelling gas, hearing goes distant, other half sees my eyes going 'goggley' so can usually dissappear or at least get somewhere quiet but not always.
I would have my doubts as the these fits especially if she is reluctant to see a professional, it is something that personally, it want managed and checked for other causes. Trouble is, there is still a lot of wives-tales about fits and people are scared by what happens.
Wrap her in a flea-bitten blacket next time to 'protect her dignity' she will soon change her mind!
I can even drive, so its not all that bad, it just needs managing.
ETA: my EEG still shows 'irregularities' 36 hrs after the fit but not sure if this is visable in everyone or I just take along time to reset!
Edited by mrsxllifts on Tuesday 22 March 00:22
My partner has epilepsy, if someone has an EEG *during* the seizure it will usually spot it but not necessarily afterwards.
There are loads of types of seizure including ones where the person remains somewhat awake and aware (which is horrible for the person having the seizure) - a person retaining some reflexes or pupils reactive etc. tells you absolutely nothing about whether they're actually seizing or not. Epilepsy is a really, really complex condition with a huge amount of variation - everybody can recognise a full-blown tonic clonic seizure complete with incontinence etc. but please please don't treat someone like s
t just because whatever they had wasn't a ‘classic’ seizure. See for more info: http://www.epilepsy.org.uk/info/seizures/partial-s...
As someone mentioned a person having a seizure may or may not be incontinent but a faker won't.
A person who's just had a seizure might have a recovery period of anything between 5 minutes and 4 or more hours. Having a really huge tonic clonic seizure is physically exhausting and it's not unusual for someone to be almost unrousable after - Herself generally needs an absolute minimum of an hour in bed after a bad one.
The biggest clue is that someone who isn't faking and has long term epilepsy with frequent seizures will do pretty much anything to avoid panic, fuss, ambulance called, hospital etc. If they've had a bad seizure they'll generally want some dry undies and somewhere safe to kip, nothing else. If it's someone who has apparently been having seizures for a while, say more than a year, then being agreeable to a load of drama and calling 999 is probably the key to sussing out if they're for real. A person who's had epilepsy all their life will... well, behave like it! Not a big deal, part of that person's individual version of normality.
Of course anybody of any age who newly starts having seizures, even only little ones that are barely noticable, urgently needs to see a doctor. But that's kinda different.
http://www.epilepsy.org.uk/
http://www.epilepsysociety.org.uk/
There are loads of types of seizure including ones where the person remains somewhat awake and aware (which is horrible for the person having the seizure) - a person retaining some reflexes or pupils reactive etc. tells you absolutely nothing about whether they're actually seizing or not. Epilepsy is a really, really complex condition with a huge amount of variation - everybody can recognise a full-blown tonic clonic seizure complete with incontinence etc. but please please don't treat someone like s
t just because whatever they had wasn't a ‘classic’ seizure. See for more info: http://www.epilepsy.org.uk/info/seizures/partial-s...As someone mentioned a person having a seizure may or may not be incontinent but a faker won't.
A person who's just had a seizure might have a recovery period of anything between 5 minutes and 4 or more hours. Having a really huge tonic clonic seizure is physically exhausting and it's not unusual for someone to be almost unrousable after - Herself generally needs an absolute minimum of an hour in bed after a bad one.
The biggest clue is that someone who isn't faking and has long term epilepsy with frequent seizures will do pretty much anything to avoid panic, fuss, ambulance called, hospital etc. If they've had a bad seizure they'll generally want some dry undies and somewhere safe to kip, nothing else. If it's someone who has apparently been having seizures for a while, say more than a year, then being agreeable to a load of drama and calling 999 is probably the key to sussing out if they're for real. A person who's had epilepsy all their life will... well, behave like it! Not a big deal, part of that person's individual version of normality.
Of course anybody of any age who newly starts having seizures, even only little ones that are barely noticable, urgently needs to see a doctor. But that's kinda different.
http://www.epilepsy.org.uk/
http://www.epilepsysociety.org.uk/
Gassing Station | Health Matters | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff