Is there a god/Allah/Supreme being?
Discussion
Control said:
I think we could really do with some clarification of the word 'faith' and the notion of 'science' here. Theres been much talk of people either having faith in religion or faith in science, as though science is some commodity that you can get off the shelves, a sort of alternative religion. Total nonsense.
Science is purely the extended version of the logical thinking that every one of us uses every day. You want a pint of milk? You go to the shop to get one. Yes, its possible the shop might have been nuked overnight, but we all know that observed evidence suggests it will almost certainly provide you with milk. It follows quite simply that to retrieve the milk on a morning yet deny results produced from only slightly more complex logical thinking (e.g. evolution) is the action of an irrational mind.
Personally I wouldn't suggest either the existence or non-existence of a higher intelligence because we're a long way from proving it either way. But to set aside what has been discovered from straightforward logic just because it contradicts some word of mouth teaching from thousands of years ago does seem a little daft.
Science does NOT contradict the bible. At least I've never heard a conclusive arguement that doesnt have an element of 'faith' involved to believe. (PS Darwin became a believer in God before he died due to the large holes in his evolution theory)
The worldwide flood in Noahs days has been backed-up by the sedimentary layers found in the earth for example.
I am a believer, I believe that God exists, I believe He continues to guide me and many others. I believe He does all things for the greater good and it is not for us to question out Creator. God is LOVE as it says in the bible and most people will have or have already been challenged at some point in their life.
The vast majority of people want MORE from their lives. As one guy put it we have a God shaped hole in us which only He can fill to make our lives complete. Problem is we try to fill it with our work, our cars, drink, whatever else turns us on.
Cant describe my Faith any better than saying God met with me and I know many more people like me who have been healed of sickness, rescued from the alcoholism etc.. and I know of many people who have believed and suffered. No-one has all the answers.
Thank God for Jesus dying for the worlds sins so that we can know God. Jn 3v16
Rick,
So its not through sheer determination, that people recover from illness, alcoholism? They could put it down to God, and it is probably a good thing if it gives them the determination to beat such things, but is the simpler logical reason that their own will got them through it? By saying God does this and that, then that sort of takes away our own free will? You met with God? I find it a little hard to grasp exactly what this means? You met with god, or you had a bit of a religious revelation?
Do you realise how big the boat would have to be to fit 2 of each creature on it? There have been floods ever since the earth had water!
I am not arguing that you have faith, and for most it is a good thing, and a great help but what I cannot grasp is the undying belief in something that you feel something is there, yet have no logical reason o believe is there. If you believe Noah, do you also believe Adam and Eve, and Cain and Able? Which bits of the old testament are you going to use as truth, and which are just morality led tories? Why is there such a difference betwee the testaments? old testament is a God that does some dan good smoting, and pretty much gets up grumpy every morning, whereas new testament he is kind a loving? The differences between the Gospels, such as the errors at hs ressurection, where some mention the gardner, some don't, some see him on the road as jesus H, and other see someone different, who says he is jesus H. You cannot belive the bible, as the Churh have had their grubby hands on it. If you want a true account, that has NOT been abridged, read the Qu-ran.
I am not trying to belittle your religion, but I would like to know what makes you believe, and why you feel it is right, even though the very document you base your religion is flawed?
Cheers
Andy
(trying not to be offensive, but no doubt have done a very good job of it)
So its not through sheer determination, that people recover from illness, alcoholism? They could put it down to God, and it is probably a good thing if it gives them the determination to beat such things, but is the simpler logical reason that their own will got them through it? By saying God does this and that, then that sort of takes away our own free will? You met with God? I find it a little hard to grasp exactly what this means? You met with god, or you had a bit of a religious revelation?
Do you realise how big the boat would have to be to fit 2 of each creature on it? There have been floods ever since the earth had water!
I am not arguing that you have faith, and for most it is a good thing, and a great help but what I cannot grasp is the undying belief in something that you feel something is there, yet have no logical reason o believe is there. If you believe Noah, do you also believe Adam and Eve, and Cain and Able? Which bits of the old testament are you going to use as truth, and which are just morality led tories? Why is there such a difference betwee the testaments? old testament is a God that does some dan good smoting, and pretty much gets up grumpy every morning, whereas new testament he is kind a loving? The differences between the Gospels, such as the errors at hs ressurection, where some mention the gardner, some don't, some see him on the road as jesus H, and other see someone different, who says he is jesus H. You cannot belive the bible, as the Churh have had their grubby hands on it. If you want a true account, that has NOT been abridged, read the Qu-ran.
I am not trying to belittle your religion, but I would like to know what makes you believe, and why you feel it is right, even though the very document you base your religion is flawed?
Cheers
Andy
(trying not to be offensive, but no doubt have done a very good job of it)
rickbrown74 said:
Science does NOT contradict the bible. At least I've never heard a conclusive arguement that doesnt have an element of 'faith' involved to believe. (PS Darwin became a believer in God before he died due to the large holes in his evolution theory)
According to the bible (counting back generations) the world has been in existence some 12000 years, no mention of dinosaurs and humans have been here from the start.
rickbrown74 said:
The worldwide flood in Noahs days has been backed-up by the sedimentary layers found in the earth for example.
Only in parts of the world around the middle east. There isn't enough water on the planet to flood everywhere.
What ever else you believe about a supreme being, the bible is a collection of folk tales to explain the (at the time) inexplicable. We now have better answers to the questions.
rickbrown74 said:
I am a believer, I believe that God exists, I believe He continues to guide me and many others. I believe He does all things for the greater good and it is not for us to question out Creator. God is LOVE as it says in the bible and most people will have or have already been challenged at some point in their life.
1st point: Why not? Does someone (ie those in power in your religious community) not want you thinking too hard?
2nd point: What? Why does people's hardship point to a higher being?
rickbrown74 said:
The vast majority of people want MORE from their lives. As one guy put it we have a God shaped hole in us which only He can fill to make our lives complete. Problem is we try to fill it with our work, our cars, drink, whatever else turns us on.
You're making generalisations from your stand point. I do not have a hole in my life, my life is pretty damn good thank you very much. I live it to broadly christian values because of my background and the society that I live within. I am also a great deal more tolerant than many religious people I have met (from all denominations).
rickbrown74 said:
Cant describe my Faith any better than saying God met with me and I know many more people like me who have been healed of sickness, rescued from the alcoholism etc.. and I know of many people who have believed and suffered. No-one has all the answers.
No comment. I'm not going to insult your belief system.
plotloss said:
Oh thats who it was.
I met this chap, big long beard, flowing robes, huge bit of stone under his arm at Glasto in '99.
I've been wondering ever since...
i've a gut feeling you met moses, not God.. Moses had those B&Q commandment paving slabs under his arms, when he went to Israel to make a nice patio...
andy mac said:
Rick,
So its not through sheer determination, that people recover from illness, alcoholism? They could put it down to God, and it is probably a good thing if it gives them the determination to beat such things, but is the simpler logical reason that their own will got them through it? By saying God does this and that, then that sort of takes away our own free will? You met with God? I find it a little hard to grasp exactly what this means? You met with god, or you had a bit of a religious revelation?
Do you realise how big the boat would have to be to fit 2 of each creature on it? There have been floods ever since the earth had water!
I am not arguing that you have faith, and for most it is a good thing, and a great help but what I cannot grasp is the undying belief in something that you feel something is there, yet have no logical reason o believe is there. If you believe Noah, do you also believe Adam and Eve, and Cain and Able? Which bits of the old testament are you going to use as truth, and which are just morality led tories? Why is there such a difference betwee the testaments? old testament is a God that does some dan good smoting, and pretty much gets up grumpy every morning, whereas new testament he is kind a loving? The differences between the Gospels, such as the errors at hs ressurection, where some mention the gardner, some don't, some see him on the road as jesus H, and other see someone different, who says he is jesus H. You cannot belive the bible, as the Churh have had their grubby hands on it. If you want a true account, that has NOT been abridged, read the Qu-ran.
I am not trying to belittle your religion, but I would like to know what makes you believe, and why you feel it is right, even though the very document you base your religion is flawed?
Cheers
Andy
(trying not to be offensive, but no doubt have done a very good job of it)
Flawed? Please state which part exactely. I dont follow what you say about the gospels contradicting. They merely mention different aspects of the same event. (but we can get into nit-picking here which I dont want to do. No-one has ever had true grounds to say that with out twisting things an itty-bit.)
and there is a difference between the Old and New testaments. The Old foretold of a coming Saviour and the New tells of the Church after the Saviour (who left the Holy Spirit to empower the church)
As for putting it down to willpower that people recover - thats perfectly feasible but if a person is instantly healed, cured of an addiction, or has a radical change in their personality or attitude and they say God did it I cant argue with that. If it makes us appear weak, well, God said He would use the weak to confound the mighty.
PS: I dont see myself as weak. I have a highish IQ (130-odd), am 6 foot, athletic, etc. and dont need a 'religious crutch' as some would put it.
When I say I met with God. Until it happens to a person there is nothing I can say to explain what its like. You know its real, thats all I can say and God has proved it to me time and again that He is real and helping me with the more 'undisirable' aspects of my attitude etc..
rickbrown74 said:
Science does NOT contradict the bible. At least I've never heard a conclusive arguement that doesnt have an element of 'faith' involved to believe. (PS Darwin became a believer in God before he died due to the large holes in his evolution theory)
Er, I think you'll find it does on a great many things - try the whole Adam & Eve thing for a start. As for Darwin recanting, I suggest you do your research a little better next time. Darwin's supposed repentance is a story often trotted out, yet is little more that the uncorroborated testimony of one person, who was not at Darwin's deathbed. See www.apologeticspress.org/faq/r&r9102a.htm for more details.
This is what happens once you let other people do your thinking for you: you start parroting everything they say, and you end up talking rubbish.
rickbrown74 said:
Flawed? Please state which part exactely. I dont follow what you say about the gospels contradicting. They merely mention different aspects of the same event. (but we can get into nit-picking here which I dont want to do. No-one has ever had true grounds to say that with out twisting things an itty-bit.)
and there is a difference between the Old and New testaments. The Old foretold of a coming Saviour and the New tells of the Church after the Saviour (who left the Holy Spirit to empower the church)
As for putting it down to willpower that people recover - thats perfectly feasible but if a person is instantly healed, cured of an addiction, or has a radical change in their personality or attitude and they say God did it I cant argue with that. If it makes us appear weak, well, God said He would use the weak to confound the mighty.
PS: I dont see myself as weak. I have a highish IQ (130-odd), am 6 foot, athletic, etc. and dont need a 'religious crutch' as some would put it.
When I say I met with God. Until it happens to a person there is nothing I can say to explain what its like. You know its real, thats all I can say and God has proved it to me time and again that He is real and helping me with the more 'undisirable' aspects of my attitude etc..
Contradictions here www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html#jehoiachin and no, I am not going to go through them all, but it shows that you cannot take the bible as truth. A lot of it is nit picky tuff, but some of it isn't.
The difference between testaments is exactly what i said. The old is a God full of Wrath, and the last is a loving god... Why the change? Smotes in old, loves in second? It is very much like 2 different beings. For example, 2 passages from said bible..
[quote]"I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy." (Jer. 13:14) "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling."
"The Lord is very pitiful and of tender mercy." (James 5:11)
"For his mercy endureth forever." (1 Chron. 16:34)
"The Lord is good to all, and his tender mercies are over all his works." (Ps. 145:9)
"God is love." (1 John 4:16)
[/quote]
I am not, and never had called anyone weak, because they are religious, I just find it interesting, whether they be muslim, Christian, or Hindu.
peoples faith do not concern, and they are welcome to practise it. But, it seems ok for people to preach their religions, whenever they want, yewt when we question it, we get made to feel like it nis wrong, and how dare we question peoples beliefs... I have as of yet to hear a decent argument for the existence of god...
pratchett said the univese is on the back of a big turtle... I hope in a thousand years time that is not misconstrued as the word of the allmighty
It's strange how many people on this thread have blamed God for events like the death of children, the suffering of sick people etc. If there were a God who was prepared to intervene at the drop of a prayer, life would be so much easier and we would probably all be religiously on our knees several times a day, expecting to get results!
One of the basics of the concept I mentioned some pages ago is that God (or the Creator etc) formed the Universe to discover the meaning of powerlessness - the other side of the coin, as it were. Surely such a God, having given sentient living creatures self-will in order to learn, would hardly be prepared to continually counter that by interfering in the experiment?
One of the basics of the concept I mentioned some pages ago is that God (or the Creator etc) formed the Universe to discover the meaning of powerlessness - the other side of the coin, as it were. Surely such a God, having given sentient living creatures self-will in order to learn, would hardly be prepared to continually counter that by interfering in the experiment?
-DeaDLocK- said:
*sigh*
Why do the Big Bang theory and the existence of God have to contradict each other? Why can't the so called "Big Bang" (which wasn't actually an explosion or anything like how it sounds) be the mechanism in which a "God" functioned to give birth to creation?
Why would a supreme creator create something then leave it alone for 14 billion years? In fact, why would a creator create a Universe containing physical laws and processes such as evolution? That doesn't strike me as very supreme at all. Surely by creating a Universe with set physical laws, the creator would then be unable to have further influence without circumventing those very laws? After all, why bother creating them if you're not going to enforce them? Why would any supreme power create a process such as evolution? That implies their creation wasn't perfect to begin with, which surely it should be, given their supremeness?
To suggest that God kick started the Universe with the Big Bang (I'd agree that is a poor term by the way, but it seems to have stuck) then left everything alone for fourteen thousand million years seems absurd to me.
hornet said:
To suggest that God kick started the Universe with the Big Bang (I'd agree that is a poor term by the way, but it seems to have stuck) then left everything alone for fourteen thousand million years seems absurd to me.
But that's because you can't put yourself in God's shoes. If a supreme Creator wanted to discover the feeling of being at the other end of the creative process, he might well set up a series of very creative situations (there could be an infinite number of Universes that we know nothing about!) and await the outcome. Why should that outcome be dependent on what happens in our minuscule solar system? Why do some of us seem to think the whole of creation is wrapped around human life on Earth? That's much more absurd in my opinion!
hornet said:
Why would a supreme creator create something then leave it alone for 14 billion years? In fact, why would a creator create a Universe containing physical laws and processes such as evolution? That doesn't strike me as very supreme at all. Surely by creating a Universe with set physical laws, the creator would then be unable to have further influence without circumventing those very laws? After all, why bother creating them if you're not going to enforce them? Why would any supreme power create a process such as evolution? That implies their creation wasn't perfect to begin with, which surely it should be, given their supremeness?
To suggest that God kick started the Universe with the Big Bang (I'd agree that is a poor term by the way, but it seems to have stuck) then left everything alone for fourteen thousand million years seems absurd to me.
Hello again Hornet - Q1 14 Billion years to a being outside of time is less then infintesimal.
Q2 - Well evolution has appeared to work quite well (though I do not believe in Darwin's "random mutations" theory I hold to the theory of an environmental effect on DNA).
Q3 - As a supreme being that exists beyond our physical laws it wouldn't really be much of a problem to circumvent them now.
Q4 - Define perfection?
interesting why people get so intense when discussing this topic.
Heaven and hell - does it exist? The though will cross your mind at some point. If you even vaguely think that there is an 'afterlife' dont you think you should make sure you're going to the right place.
'God so loved the world that He sent His only son to die on the cross that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish and have everliasting life' John 3v16
I will say no more cause people are not going to change their minds or indeed open their minds to think about wether God exists on the basis of a forum post. There will always be a website or book which will tell you what you want to hear rather than what you dont.
(Agressive replies unneccessary - my views above and some of you have made your stance clear, I should be allowed to do the same)
Heaven and hell - does it exist? The though will cross your mind at some point. If you even vaguely think that there is an 'afterlife' dont you think you should make sure you're going to the right place.
'God so loved the world that He sent His only son to die on the cross that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish and have everliasting life' John 3v16
I will say no more cause people are not going to change their minds or indeed open their minds to think about wether God exists on the basis of a forum post. There will always be a website or book which will tell you what you want to hear rather than what you dont.
(Agressive replies unneccessary - my views above and some of you have made your stance clear, I should be allowed to do the same)
Did you know the virgin mary concept has only been about since the 18th century, I think. But this is all about the church, and I'm sure you are all aware, that it is run by men, and as such, is currupted.
if god wants to know what it is like to be at the other end of the scale, would he not already know, what with him/her/it being supreme in the first place?
if God is not willing to stop genocide/murder, child abuse etc, is he/she/it really worth worshipping? Would a supreme being be so vain as to want microbes praying?
But this is all about the church, and I'm sure you are all aware, that it is run by men, and as such, is currupted. Is there any reasonable prrof that the idea of a god holds water, and not that someone had a vision, because things like that cannot be verified.
if god wants to know what it is like to be at the other end of the scale, would he not already know, what with him/her/it being supreme in the first place?
if God is not willing to stop genocide/murder, child abuse etc, is he/she/it really worth worshipping? Would a supreme being be so vain as to want microbes praying?
But this is all about the church, and I'm sure you are all aware, that it is run by men, and as such, is currupted. Is there any reasonable prrof that the idea of a god holds water, and not that someone had a vision, because things like that cannot be verified.
andy mac said:
....
if god wants to know what it is like to be at the other end of the scale, would he not already know, what with him/her/it being supreme in the first place?
if God is not willing to stop genocide/murder, child abuse etc, is he/she/it really worth worshipping? Would a supreme being be so vain as to want microbes praying?
If you are a Supreme Being, how would you know what's it's like not to be a Supreme Being. Empathy, perhaps, but it's not the same as knowing. Another possibility is that the Creator set all this going in order to see if a new Creator could be the result??
The people who say that God needs to be worshipped are usually the same people who whinge when he doesn't put the world to rights. It doesn't square with the concept I put forward.
andy mac said:
again, no-one can answer the question of why do you belive in a God. It is all personal wishy washy experience, and there is nothing there to give somebody even the faintest glimmer of evidence.
I belive in life elsewhere in the universe, but i do not believe in an afterlife, or ghosts, or a God. nothing to prove an afterlife, or ghosts, and there is nothing to suggest e3ven slightly that a god exists.
From this I can boil it all down to faith. So what is faith? It is the belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. Take from this what you will, but for me, i find it absurd that I could believe in something that is purely created from something put into my mind by my parents, that i cannot see evidence of. I live my life as a Christian would, however I am free on a sunday to watch motorsport, and go for a drinky.
I am still no wiser as to why people believe in something non tangible, or cannot see evidence with my own eyes!
Where to start - you have already poopooed Descartes so we'll move out of the three dimensions and onto the forth. How infalible is your memory? We believe we exist through time and yet history is merely "stories" from a good book supported by falible evidence. How does your memory stand up to scientific tests? For the scientific method to work it has to be repeatable and yet if you cannot trust history how can anything be truely repeated?
As to why I believe in God - He exists, I am not too sure about myself though.
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