Are RWD Cars more dangerous to drive?
Discussion
Points in order then:
Are they fundamentally dangerous to drive? No, but they are fundamentally different, which can be the same thing in unfamiliar conditions, or if you try to power out of a slippery bend.
Do they require greater driver skill? Nope, in the same way (IMO) that a manual requires only a smidgeon more nous than an automatic. Practice, etc.
High performance, yes, this is true of modern RWD cars, mostly because its a bloody sight cheaper for the manufacturers to transmit power a foot to the front wheels than all the way through the car to the rear wheels.
Are they fundamentally dangerous to drive? No, but they are fundamentally different, which can be the same thing in unfamiliar conditions, or if you try to power out of a slippery bend.
Do they require greater driver skill? Nope, in the same way (IMO) that a manual requires only a smidgeon more nous than an automatic. Practice, etc.
High performance, yes, this is true of modern RWD cars, mostly because its a bloody sight cheaper for the manufacturers to transmit power a foot to the front wheels than all the way through the car to the rear wheels.
In the days when most cars were RWD as a matter of course, the answer would be "no", as everybody learnt to drive in them and got thoroughly used to them. These days, when everybody learns in some under-powered FWD shopping hatch, they simply don't have the experience to deal with RWD.
So: yes and no is the answer. 'No' they're not dangerous in and of themselves but 'yes' they would dangerous in the hands of 80% of the numpties on the road today...
So: yes and no is the answer. 'No' they're not dangerous in and of themselves but 'yes' they would dangerous in the hands of 80% of the numpties on the road today...
An interesting question and I hope the thread doesn't degenerate into a RWD vs FWD battle 
Personally, I feel safer driving RWD cars as I find it easier to distribute the cornering forces between front and rear, thus making my driving safer as I'm further from the limit of grip at any given point in time.
I guess it depends on the driver, but do bear in mind that most accidents aren't caused by the driver overcooking things, they are caused by a basic lack of observation and forward planning, which is the same regardless of what you're driving.
If every car in the world became RWD overnight then I don't think that accident statistics would change that much. Numpties in shopping cars wouldn't notice the difference, and most fast cars are RWD anyway, so TVR and Porsche owners would be oblivious to the change as it wouldn't effect them.
Personally, I feel safer driving RWD cars as I find it easier to distribute the cornering forces between front and rear, thus making my driving safer as I'm further from the limit of grip at any given point in time.
I guess it depends on the driver, but do bear in mind that most accidents aren't caused by the driver overcooking things, they are caused by a basic lack of observation and forward planning, which is the same regardless of what you're driving.
If every car in the world became RWD overnight then I don't think that accident statistics would change that much. Numpties in shopping cars wouldn't notice the difference, and most fast cars are RWD anyway, so TVR and Porsche owners would be oblivious to the change as it wouldn't effect them.
bus_ter said:
1. Are RWD fundamentally more dangerous to drive?
2. Do they require greater driver skill?
3. or is it just that RWD cars tend to be high performance cars anyway.
1. No - you just have to adapt your driving style to suit.
2. I presume you mean "... to drive quickly". As before, just a different style. You can understeer a Civic Type R into the middle of a field, just as you can rotate a Morris Minor or a Smart Coupe on a greasy traffic island - that doesn't make the CTR any more or less dangerous - just a different type of "off".
3. Since the MkIII Ford Escort the majority of small and family card unleashed on the public have been FWD.
As excited youths, people growing up in the 80's and 90's developed their "skills" in XR3's and 205's rather than Capri's and Mk 2 Escorts.
Once they reach an age to afford a powerful car, invariably it is RWD because FWD can't cope with more than 200bhp - which leads to people crashing new RWD pride and joy because they over estimate their abilities too soon.
I would contend that FWD cars are easier for the average driver to go quickly in, particularly in the wet. FWD wheelspin or power-on understeer off a wet roundabout by tw@thead in his Saxo would probably have equated to smacking the barrier @rse-first if he had been driving anything RWD with a bit of poke.
In the 'old days', yes cars were all RWD, but they were all relatively gutless with comedically small tyre cross-sections and low grip, so that when they went sideways they did so progressively and relatively benignly.
I reckon many (not PHers) with relatively powerful RWD cars have them as pose-chariots and don't come even close to the (traction-controlled) limits anyway. I went past a Boxster in the wet recently that was being driven so timidly round a roundabout by its female (no sexism intended) driver that it was in itself a road safety hazard.
Those RWD cars without driver aids that do require a bit of skill to keep on the road i.e TVR, RWD Cosworth, older M3, MR2T, older Porsches etc tend to be owned and operated by people who know what they are getting into. Miles Smyth-Fyffe is more likely to buy a safety'd-up to the hilt TT or whatever with his bonus if he is in it purely to be (in his eyes) flash.
In the 'old days', yes cars were all RWD, but they were all relatively gutless with comedically small tyre cross-sections and low grip, so that when they went sideways they did so progressively and relatively benignly.
I reckon many (not PHers) with relatively powerful RWD cars have them as pose-chariots and don't come even close to the (traction-controlled) limits anyway. I went past a Boxster in the wet recently that was being driven so timidly round a roundabout by its female (no sexism intended) driver that it was in itself a road safety hazard.
Those RWD cars without driver aids that do require a bit of skill to keep on the road i.e TVR, RWD Cosworth, older M3, MR2T, older Porsches etc tend to be owned and operated by people who know what they are getting into. Miles Smyth-Fyffe is more likely to buy a safety'd-up to the hilt TT or whatever with his bonus if he is in it purely to be (in his eyes) flash.
I would say, yes they are more dangerous. Fwd cars can easily be made stable (in yaw) under almost all conditions. A rwd car can easily be made unstable by the wrong driver input. Once it is unstable, the driver has to actively control the car i.e. if the driver does nothing then the car will spontaneously swap ends. If you give a fwd too much welly it ploughs on in a straight line until you ease off the power. Do the same in a rwd and it will try to spit you off the road sideways.
The advantage of rwd is that the more power you apply (and hence the more acceleration, and weight transfer to the driven wheels) the more traction you have (i.e. more weight on the driven wheels). With a fwd car the opposite is true, which is why rwd is the natural choice for a powerful car as long as you have a driver capable of controlling it when necessary, or enough driver aids to do it for them.
The advantage of rwd is that the more power you apply (and hence the more acceleration, and weight transfer to the driven wheels) the more traction you have (i.e. more weight on the driven wheels). With a fwd car the opposite is true, which is why rwd is the natural choice for a powerful car as long as you have a driver capable of controlling it when necessary, or enough driver aids to do it for them.
The problem isn't drive type, driver skill or anything.
It's all down to driver attitude.
Get in a car and boot the throttle without feeling the tyres slipping or squirming, feeling the steering getting light, all manner of feedback clues, then you are a bad driver full stop.
I don't think it should matter what car you drive to how dangerous you are, you should drive to a level you are happy with, and that level builds with experience in that car.
To go from a 1.1 Nova to a 4.5 Cerb should be no more dangerous than any other car change imho.
If you can't moderate your level of driving according to the conditions, be it weather or car type, then you need to worry about the driver FULL STOP, in any car!
I've seen idiots in fwd shopping cars in the snow all over the road, so clearly even a simple car can be too much for some!
Tis down to the driver then imho
Build up the familiarity and confidence over time, and never push it beyond what you are comfortable with. Simple. Should never have any problems.
Dave
It's all down to driver attitude.
Get in a car and boot the throttle without feeling the tyres slipping or squirming, feeling the steering getting light, all manner of feedback clues, then you are a bad driver full stop.
I don't think it should matter what car you drive to how dangerous you are, you should drive to a level you are happy with, and that level builds with experience in that car.
To go from a 1.1 Nova to a 4.5 Cerb should be no more dangerous than any other car change imho.
If you can't moderate your level of driving according to the conditions, be it weather or car type, then you need to worry about the driver FULL STOP, in any car!
I've seen idiots in fwd shopping cars in the snow all over the road, so clearly even a simple car can be too much for some!
Tis down to the driver then imho
Build up the familiarity and confidence over time, and never push it beyond what you are comfortable with. Simple. Should never have any problems. Dave
Mr Whippy said:
To go from a 1.1 Nova to a 4.5 Cerb should be no more dangerous than any other car change imho.
If you can't moderate your level of driving according to the conditions, be it weather or car type, then you need to worry about the driver FULL STOP, in any car!
I've seen idiots in fwd shopping cars in the snow all over the road, so clearly even a simple car can be too much for some!
Tis down to the driver then imho
Dave
Actually, that's so true. I've driven cars varying from 60bhp to 430bhp and it is the same in all of them - just feel the car properly and drive sensibly. If you're sensible enough to only do things in a car that are safe and that you are comfortable doing, then it shouldn't matter how much power you've got.
Thanks for the replies.
Personally I have only had experience with RWD cars.. (which must make me a minority these days), since passing my test I have only ever owned low power RWD cars, I currently own a Smart Roadster (which incidentally is the most unreliable car I have ever owned, despite being my first new car) However being very low powered I rarely get into any trouble, and the back end has only come away a handful of times since ownership. Mostly at the start of this year when the roads were so poor due to lack of rain.
I do intend to progress into more powerful cars when I gain more experience, (and the insurance becomes realistic, i'm 24!)
This is a great forum, I rarely post but have read (and learnt alot here)
Personally I have only had experience with RWD cars.. (which must make me a minority these days), since passing my test I have only ever owned low power RWD cars, I currently own a Smart Roadster (which incidentally is the most unreliable car I have ever owned, despite being my first new car) However being very low powered I rarely get into any trouble, and the back end has only come away a handful of times since ownership. Mostly at the start of this year when the roads were so poor due to lack of rain.
I do intend to progress into more powerful cars when I gain more experience, (and the insurance becomes realistic, i'm 24!)
This is a great forum, I rarely post but have read (and learnt alot here)
bus_ter said:
Thanks for the replies.
Personally I have only had experience with RWD cars.. (which must make me a minority these days), since passing my test I have only ever owned low power RWD cars, I currently own a Smart Roadster (which incidentally is the most unreliable car I have ever owned, despite being my first new car) However being very low powered I rarely get into any trouble, and the back end has only come away a handful of times since ownership. Mostly at the start of this year when the roads were so poor due to lack of rain.
I do intend to progress into more powerful cars when I gain more experience, (and the insurance becomes realistic, i'm 24!)
This is a great forum, I rarely post but have read (and learnt alot here)
Personally, I will only drive RWD cars if I can afford to. I hate the way that FWD cars corner, especially on the road where you can't fly round bends on the limit.
If you're sensible, going for a quick RWD car shouldn't be a problem. I bought a Caterham when I was 25 and was absolutely fine, even in the wet. I'm not Michael Schumacher, I was just sensible with it. Accident avoidance was actually much simpler and easier with the manouverability, power and brakes of the Caterham (although actually being in an accident would be a different matter!).
RobM77 said:
Personally, I will only drive RWD cars if I can afford to. I hate the way that FWD cars corner, especially on the road where you can't fly round bends on the limit.
The thing that freaks me out when it comes to FWD, is the lack of feel you have when going through a corner. I am used to feel the traction of the back wheels in the spine (hard to describe), but in an FWD car this feeling is missing completely. So when you try to touch yourself slowly to the limit, everything seems fine, and suddenly the car just looses grip and shoots straight.
I tend to agree with the "its different" rather than "more danger" school here.
I drive both a V12 jag and an Audi A2 (not far from 2 extremes) both in central London and on open roads.
The hard facts - RWD have more power (generally) meaning that inexperienced use of the gas can lead to interesting moments. FWD can be underpowered, leading to one putting oneself into a dangerous situation with no way of getting out, or as with powerful RWD a powerful FWD can lead to interesting moments.
The simplest difference is ... overcook a RWD and you will be going down teh ditch backwards, overcook a FWD and you will go down same ditch front first.
I personally find RWD safer (Past RWD include Caterhams, E44 and a VW transporter ?!?!?) as i find that they give plenty or warning when things are going pear shaped .. (now before i get shot down, i know that there are plenty of RWD's that bite much harder than my list <end caviet>
In short, if i drive like a complete T
r i can make things dangerous in either A2 or Jag, inversely I can hustle along (relatively speaking in the A2) perfectly safely with a bit of due care and applied common sense ...
Well, thats my opinion anyway ... guess the only way to find out is to try .... but gently ....
I drive both a V12 jag and an Audi A2 (not far from 2 extremes) both in central London and on open roads.
The hard facts - RWD have more power (generally) meaning that inexperienced use of the gas can lead to interesting moments. FWD can be underpowered, leading to one putting oneself into a dangerous situation with no way of getting out, or as with powerful RWD a powerful FWD can lead to interesting moments.
The simplest difference is ... overcook a RWD and you will be going down teh ditch backwards, overcook a FWD and you will go down same ditch front first.
I personally find RWD safer (Past RWD include Caterhams, E44 and a VW transporter ?!?!?) as i find that they give plenty or warning when things are going pear shaped .. (now before i get shot down, i know that there are plenty of RWD's that bite much harder than my list <end caviet>
In short, if i drive like a complete T
r i can make things dangerous in either A2 or Jag, inversely I can hustle along (relatively speaking in the A2) perfectly safely with a bit of due care and applied common sense ... Well, thats my opinion anyway ... guess the only way to find out is to try .... but gently ....
Average response of an average driver in a situation where he/she is losing or has lost control of the car is to take their foot off the accelerator in order to slow down and/or hit the brakes.
It doesn't matter what the circumstances of said situation is - an average driver will stop accelerating in any event where they feel there are losing control and are liable to have an accident. It is instinct.
This behaviour is, generally speaking, much safer while understeering than it is oversteering.
Is FWD safer for the average driver? Yes I'd say so.
It doesn't matter what the circumstances of said situation is - an average driver will stop accelerating in any event where they feel there are losing control and are liable to have an accident. It is instinct.
This behaviour is, generally speaking, much safer while understeering than it is oversteering.
Is FWD safer for the average driver? Yes I'd say so.
Newromancer said:
Personally, I will only drive RWD cars if I can afford to. I hate the way that FWD cars corner, especially on the road where you can't fly round bends on the limit.
The thing that freaks me out when it comes to FWD, is the lack of feel you have when going through a corner. I am used to feel the traction of the back wheels in the spine (hard to describe), but in an FWD car this feeling is missing completely.
Yes - well put - it's because everything's going through the front wheels. I know exactly what you mean. In a RWD car you can feel and therefore manage grip front and rear and it just feels right if you're a sensitive driver and are driving at a reasonable speed.
Newromancer said:
So when you try to touch yourself slowly to the limit, everything seems fine, and suddenly the car just looses grip and shoots straight.
Yes. In FWD, it is much easier to overload the front tyres and it's "hello hedge". On track, the technique is to get a FWD car drifting equally front/rear or, in slower bends, to tend to slight oversteer so this doesn't happen, but of course on the road this isn't possible as the technique requires a very critical entry technique that isn't safe or practical on the public road.
Having said that, whether on track or on road, I always perfer to be pushed rather than pulled.
As the original post stated, most RWD cars tend to be high performance, so I think this lends them a reputation for trickiness which isn't justified. Even the best FWD cars are compromised designs based on shopping cars.
A true FWD performance or race car, like a BTCC car, or even a club racing FWD car like my Metro, is actually trickier to drive quicker than RWD. Ask any touring car driver and they'll vouch for that!
Newromancer said:
Personally, I will only drive RWD cars if I can afford to. I hate the way that FWD cars corner, especially on the road where you can't fly round bends on the limit.
The thing that freaks me out when it comes to FWD, is the lack of feel you have when going through a corner. I am used to feel the traction of the back wheels in the spine (hard to describe), but in an FWD car this feeling is missing completely. So when you try to touch yourself slowly to the limit, everything seems fine, and suddenly the car just looses grip and shoots straight.
Yeah, but you do get used to it. A nicely balanced car helps too. I've driven all manner of fwd, rwd and 4wd cars with varying engine types and aspiration methods. You just drive to what the car tells you...
[flamesuit]
This is why a nice linear power delivery, with instant response is good with fwd, so you can get on and off the power WHEN you realise you have to, because unlike a rwd it doesn't say much until the very point where it is too late!
Also, a nice neutral chassis helps. My two Pugs were nice and neutral, with seemingly endless turn-in, but the turbo diesel was harder to be tidy with in the wet, but the petrol NA is just so smooth all the time!
The Golf 1.8T @ 190bhp is just a bit too hairy in the wet, with a slog of boost and understeer just a moment away, and heavy wheels that won't slow down so quick!
[/flamesuit]
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
Personally, I will only drive RWD cars if I can afford to. I hate the way that FWD cars corner, especially on the road where you can't fly round bends on the limit.
The thing that freaks me out when it comes to FWD, is the lack of feel you have when going through a corner. I am used to feel the traction of the back wheels in the spine (hard to describe), but in an FWD car this feeling is missing completely. So when you try to touch yourself slowly to the limit, everything seems fine, and suddenly the car just looses grip and shoots straight.
Yeah, but you do get used to it. A nicely balanced car helps too. I've driven all manner of fwd, rwd and 4wd cars with varying engine types and aspiration methods. You just drive to what the car tells you...
[flamesuit]
This is why a nice linear power delivery, with instant response is good with fwd, so you can get on and off the power WHEN you realise you have to, because unlike a rwd it doesn't say much until the very point where it is too late!
Also, a nice neutral chassis helps. My two Pugs were nice and neutral, with seemingly endless turn-in, but the turbo diesel was harder to be tidy with in the wet, but the petrol NA is just so smooth all the time!
The Golf 1.8T @ 190bhp is just a bit too hairy in the wet, with a slog of boost and understeer just a moment away, and heavy wheels that won't slow down so quick!
[/flamesuit]
Dave
:-D Flamesuit not necessary
FWD cars do vary enormously, and the quicker Pugs were always good (I also really rate the Integra R). However, I'll still stick to RWD - it just comes naturally to the layout to have loads of power and cope with it all, and when RWD cars are performance tuned, as with an Elise or Caterham, the driving experience is heavenly 
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