Ferrari International Assistance alive & well
Discussion
NFC 85 Vette said:
Reasonable stuff
But then why not issue a statement which says something far less suspicious sounding?i.e. "After investigation the Ferrari power unit was found to exploit a loophole, but was not in direct contravention of the 2019 rules and was therefore 100% legal. The loophole has now been closed in updated regulations".
Rules are decided upon by the FIA, these rules are then sent on to the teams in advance of the season so they know what is and what is not allowed.
If you can comply with the rules as they are defined and still find an advantage, then you have proven yourself to be an excellent engineer.
The fault is with the FIA not defining rules with sufficient clarity.
If you can comply with the rules as they are defined and still find an advantage, then you have proven yourself to be an excellent engineer.
The fault is with the FIA not defining rules with sufficient clarity.
Olas said:
Rules are decided upon by the FIA, these rules are then sent on to the teams in advance of the season so they know what is and what is not allowed.
If you can comply with the rules as they are defined and still find an advantage, then you have proven yourself to be an excellent engineer.
The fault is with the FIA not defining rules with sufficient clarity.
I think that the flexible RedBull proved quite well, that you can ignore the rules, so long as you pass the tests set to supposedly enforce the rules.If you can comply with the rules as they are defined and still find an advantage, then you have proven yourself to be an excellent engineer.
The fault is with the FIA not defining rules with sufficient clarity.
NFC 85 Vette said:
It's clear that Ferrari's horsepower advantage was reduced, but if the FIA has said that they cannot prove it was illegal, because it simply works in a way that isn't specifically prohibited, and the fuel flow sensor provides the target number, then there shouldn't really be a problem. The regulations seem pretty watertight, so whatever they were doing, involved a lot of blue sky thinking far beyond what the FIA anticipated anyone could do. (Edited for brevity)
This last bit is key: if it were simply the case that Ferrari were doing something "simply works in a way that isn't specifically prohibited" then there would be no reason for the FIA to step in, investigate & then issue the "private agreement" statement. It would be EXACTLY the same situation as DAS: almost everyone agrees that there's nothing in the 2020 rules that covers DAS, although it's been banned for 2021. There's no reason why the FIA couldn't have agreed the fuel flow monitoring arrangements were ok for 2019 & banned the system for 2020.Instead we got a situation where the Ferrari performance magically dropped off after the FIA got involved & it was blamed on aero changes. That's a difficult explaination to swallow: what team voluntarily drops a legitimate, significant performace advantage that's perfectly legal? Of course if you've been caught out & there's fingers pointing then you'd be unwise to carry on running it.
Paul_M3 said:
But then why not issue a statement which says something far less suspicious sounding?
i.e. "After investigation the Ferrari power unit was found to exploit a loophole, but was not in direct contravention of the 2019 rules and was therefore 100% legal. The loophole has now been closed in updated regulations".
I'd hazard that the FIA's still trying to workout how to police such systems, and the regulations will be updated when they've fathomed how to do it. i.e. "After investigation the Ferrari power unit was found to exploit a loophole, but was not in direct contravention of the 2019 rules and was therefore 100% legal. The loophole has now been closed in updated regulations".
Mr Pointy said:
This last bit is key: if it were simply the case that Ferrari were doing something "simply works in a way that isn't specifically prohibited" then there would be no reason for the FIA to step in, investigate & then issue the "private agreement" statement. It would be EXACTLY the same situation as DAS: almost everyone agrees that there's nothing in the 2020 rules that covers DAS, although it's been banned for 2021. There's no reason why the FIA couldn't have agreed the fuel flow monitoring arrangements were ok for 2019 & banned the system for 2020.
Instead we got a situation where the Ferrari performance magically dropped off after the FIA got involved & it was blamed on aero changes. That's a difficult explaination to swallow: what team voluntarily drops a legitimate, significant performace advantage that's perfectly legal? Of course if you've been caught out & there's fingers pointing then you'd be unwise to carry on running it.
The timeline for the whole episode makes it look different in hindsight - at Texas, what official statements had the FIA issued with regard to the Ferrari fuel system? I'd expect that fearing it being defined as illegal, Ferrari put a halt to whatever it was doing until it heard either way whether it was legal or not. From memory the investigation started at Texas and has only been concluded over the winter, so every race post-Texas, they didn't risk it as they simply didn't know what the FIA's interpretation would be. Instead we got a situation where the Ferrari performance magically dropped off after the FIA got involved & it was blamed on aero changes. That's a difficult explaination to swallow: what team voluntarily drops a legitimate, significant performace advantage that's perfectly legal? Of course if you've been caught out & there's fingers pointing then you'd be unwise to carry on running it.
Upon finding it's been judged legal, but not ethical, the quiet conversation they've had with the governing body is probably along the lines of "now you know how we did it, we wont do it anymore, but you need to cover off the regulations better".
It's an uneasy situation for the FIA; my take is they realise Ferrari found something, but if they so much as hint to other teams as to what it was, they'd have to investigate every single power unit supplier to ensure it was "legal but not ethical" in a similar fashion. This way, nobody tries it, they have their eyes on Ferrari alone, and no damage is done. The noise the other teams are making now, is to understand what Ferrari did, so they can work up their own version. But the FIA would open the flood gates and probably need to see the inner workings of each and every one, which might take as long as it did with Ferrari to ensure they're not operating out of bounds.
All this discussion and supposition is because of the very opaque and seemingly dodgy way the FIA have released this information.
It screams of dodgy dealing and carpet sweeping, so it is hardly surprising that fans as well as other teams are sitting there saying "Errrrr. WTAF?"
Ferrari may be whiter than white and simply came up with something against the spirit but within the rules themselves. I cannot see it based upon how those rules are written if it is a fuel flow "thing" but without clarity, then everyone is perfectly valid in jumping to conclusions that some sort of shenanigans have gone on.
Personally, I think it stinks.
It screams of dodgy dealing and carpet sweeping, so it is hardly surprising that fans as well as other teams are sitting there saying "Errrrr. WTAF?"
Ferrari may be whiter than white and simply came up with something against the spirit but within the rules themselves. I cannot see it based upon how those rules are written if it is a fuel flow "thing" but without clarity, then everyone is perfectly valid in jumping to conclusions that some sort of shenanigans have gone on.
Personally, I think it stinks.
IforB said:
All this discussion and supposition is because of the very opaque and seemingly dodgy way the FIA have released this information.
It screams of dodgy dealing and carpet sweeping, so it is hardly surprising that fans as well as other teams are sitting there saying "Errrrr. WTAF?"
Ferrari may be whiter than white and simply came up with something against the spirit but within the rules themselves. I cannot see it based upon how those rules are written if it is a fuel flow "thing" but without clarity, then everyone is perfectly valid in jumping to conclusions that some sort of shenanigans have gone on.
Personally, I think it stinks.
It absolutely stinks. We don't need to know if they were or were not cheating, or to what level. It stinks, the end.It screams of dodgy dealing and carpet sweeping, so it is hardly surprising that fans as well as other teams are sitting there saying "Errrrr. WTAF?"
Ferrari may be whiter than white and simply came up with something against the spirit but within the rules themselves. I cannot see it based upon how those rules are written if it is a fuel flow "thing" but without clarity, then everyone is perfectly valid in jumping to conclusions that some sort of shenanigans have gone on.
Personally, I think it stinks.
And whilst back in the day Ferrari might have looked like rock and roll superstars for being 'the bad boys' of F1, in the modern world they look like clowns. All the advantages they enjoy in F1 and they still repeatedly get their pants pulled down by Mercedes!? They would look better if they lost without special treatment, as opposed to managing to lose with special treatment.
Shame.
I suspect the FIA knows or has very strong suspicion Ferrari were cheating, but not the evidence to back it up and issue sanctions (notwithstanding their dislike of sanctioning Ferrari in any case). In which case, if they began monitoring it properly from Austin onwards, it would explain Ferrari's drop in performance.
The opaque statement from the FIA would be them saying they did do something, but avoiding talking in detail about something over which they had no solid evidence.
"Look Ferrari, we both know you were up to your armpits in it, but you got away with it this time".
The opaque statement from the FIA would be them saying they did do something, but avoiding talking in detail about something over which they had no solid evidence.
"Look Ferrari, we both know you were up to your armpits in it, but you got away with it this time".
TheDeuce said:
IforB said:
All this discussion and supposition is because of the very opaque and seemingly dodgy way the FIA have released this information.
It screams of dodgy dealing and carpet sweeping, so it is hardly surprising that fans as well as other teams are sitting there saying "Errrrr. WTAF?"
Ferrari may be whiter than white and simply came up with something against the spirit but within the rules themselves. I cannot see it based upon how those rules are written if it is a fuel flow "thing" but without clarity, then everyone is perfectly valid in jumping to conclusions that some sort of shenanigans have gone on.
Personally, I think it stinks.
It absolutely stinks. We don't need to know if they were or were not cheating, or to what level. It stinks, the end.It screams of dodgy dealing and carpet sweeping, so it is hardly surprising that fans as well as other teams are sitting there saying "Errrrr. WTAF?"
Ferrari may be whiter than white and simply came up with something against the spirit but within the rules themselves. I cannot see it based upon how those rules are written if it is a fuel flow "thing" but without clarity, then everyone is perfectly valid in jumping to conclusions that some sort of shenanigans have gone on.
Personally, I think it stinks.
And whilst back in the day Ferrari might have looked like rock and roll superstars for being 'the bad boys' of F1, in the modern world they look like clowns. All the advantages they enjoy in F1 and they still repeatedly get their pants pulled down by Mercedes!? They would look better if they lost without special treatment, as opposed to managing to lose with special treatment.
Shame.
Ferrari has never been the "bad boys" of F1, the amount of red that you see on the grandstands at every GP should be a clue. To date they have still won more championships than Mercedes which, on the other hand, has only dipped in and out of the sport when the rules suited them, hence why the special treatment. Shame? Not at all, or is it only when a british (or supposedly british) team finds a loophole that we can talk about ingenuity, cleverness, etc.?
janesmith1950 said:
I suspect the FIA knows or has very strong suspicion Ferrari were cheating, but not the evidence to back it up and issue sanctions (notwithstanding their dislike of sanctioning Ferrari in any case). In which case, if they began monitoring it properly from Austin onwards, it would explain Ferrari's drop in performance.
The opaque statement from the FIA would be them saying they did do something, but avoiding talking in detail about something over which they had no solid evidence.
"Look Ferrari, we both know you were up to your armpits in it, but you got away with it this time".
That is very plausible, though I do wonder why Ferrari has agreed to the sanctions if there was no evidence.The opaque statement from the FIA would be them saying they did do something, but avoiding talking in detail about something over which they had no solid evidence.
"Look Ferrari, we both know you were up to your armpits in it, but you got away with it this time".
All we can surmise is that something dodgy was going on and we're all being kept in the dark about what it was.
Enricogto said:
May I suggest that you broaden your horizon?
Ferrari has never been the "bad boys" of F1, the amount of red that you see on the grandstands at every GP should be a clue. To date they have still won more championships than Mercedes which, on the other hand, has only dipped in and out of the sport when the rules suited them, hence why the special treatment. Shame? Not at all, or is it only when a british (or supposedly british) team finds a loophole that we can talk about ingenuity, cleverness, etc.?
Oh please...Ferrari has never been the "bad boys" of F1, the amount of red that you see on the grandstands at every GP should be a clue. To date they have still won more championships than Mercedes which, on the other hand, has only dipped in and out of the sport when the rules suited them, hence why the special treatment. Shame? Not at all, or is it only when a british (or supposedly british) team finds a loophole that we can talk about ingenuity, cleverness, etc.?
We are not going to compare a development/innovation within the regs to subverting the read out of a sensor - those are two hugely different things.
Developing new tech to go faster is and always has been part of how winning is done in F1. Cheating, is cheating. Do you support that!? Do you think it's sporting to run more fuel than the rules of the competition allow? I love the Ferrari brand, I love their cars - but lets get real, in F1 they enjoy certain advantages and still can't win. That is not something to admire or be proud of.
As for their history, that's great. As history. It has no relevance on the team today, only their performance today is relevant. That's why there is a championship every year..
My thoughts are that Ferrari justify their commercial advantage in F1 through the value of what they bring to the show. I can even see how the veto is an extension of that principle, that what must be good for the show must also be good for Ferrari.
What I can't agree with, is any notion that the regulator of the sport would give Ferrari more freedom in the regulations or lower sanction for proven transgressions. That would unfairly reduce the other teams' chances of sporting success, something the manufacturers in particular couldn't really live with.
I'm trying to put my conspiracy thoughts back in the box to try and believe this was pragmatism of an unproven maneuvering around the fuel flow regs in a season that's over and little contention in the results, at a time when there seems to be still some jockeying over the contracts moving forward. Perhaps it's a case of let sleeping dogs lie?
What I can't agree with, is any notion that the regulator of the sport would give Ferrari more freedom in the regulations or lower sanction for proven transgressions. That would unfairly reduce the other teams' chances of sporting success, something the manufacturers in particular couldn't really live with.
I'm trying to put my conspiracy thoughts back in the box to try and believe this was pragmatism of an unproven maneuvering around the fuel flow regs in a season that's over and little contention in the results, at a time when there seems to be still some jockeying over the contracts moving forward. Perhaps it's a case of let sleeping dogs lie?
TheDeuce said:
Enricogto said:
May I suggest that you broaden your horizon?
Ferrari has never been the "bad boys" of F1, the amount of red that you see on the grandstands at every GP should be a clue. To date they have still won more championships than Mercedes which, on the other hand, has only dipped in and out of the sport when the rules suited them, hence why the special treatment. Shame? Not at all, or is it only when a british (or supposedly british) team finds a loophole that we can talk about ingenuity, cleverness, etc.?
Oh please...Ferrari has never been the "bad boys" of F1, the amount of red that you see on the grandstands at every GP should be a clue. To date they have still won more championships than Mercedes which, on the other hand, has only dipped in and out of the sport when the rules suited them, hence why the special treatment. Shame? Not at all, or is it only when a british (or supposedly british) team finds a loophole that we can talk about ingenuity, cleverness, etc.?
We are not going to compare a development/innovation within the regs to subverting the read out of a sensor - those are two hugely different things.
Developing new tech to go faster is and always has been part of how winning is done in F1. Cheating, is cheating. Do you support that!? Do you think it's sporting to run more fuel than the rules of the competition allow? I love the Ferrari brand, I love their cars - but lets get real, in F1 they enjoy certain advantages and still can't win. That is not something to admire or be proud of.
As for their history, that's great. As history. It has no relevance on the team today, only their performance today is relevant. That's why there is a championship every year..
Whether you like it or not, history has its own relevance even in today's or tomorrow's championship. It is a way by the organisers to acknowledge the longest participating competitor and the one enjoying the widest fan base.
NFC 85 Vette said:
The timeline for the whole episode makes it look different in hindsight - at Texas, what official statements had the FIA issued with regard to the Ferrari fuel system? I'd expect that fearing it being defined as illegal, Ferrari put a halt to whatever it was doing until it heard either way whether it was legal or not. From memory the investigation started at Texas and has only been concluded over the winter, so every race post-Texas, they didn't risk it as they simply didn't know what the FIA's interpretation would be.
Upon finding it's been judged legal, but not ethical, the quiet conversation they've had with the governing body is probably along the lines of "now you know how we did it, we wont do it anymore, but you need to cover off the regulations better".
It's an uneasy situation for the FIA; my take is they realise Ferrari found something, but if they so much as hint to other teams as to what it was, they'd have to investigate every single power unit supplier to ensure it was "legal but not ethical" in a similar fashion. This way, nobody tries it, they have their eyes on Ferrari alone, and no damage is done. The noise the other teams are making now, is to understand what Ferrari did, so they can work up their own version. But the FIA would open the flood gates and probably need to see the inner workings of each and every one, which might take as long as it did with Ferrari to ensure they're not operating out of bounds.
There's no such thing as ethics in F1, especially in the engineering departments. If it's not against the rules, it's in. If it's against the rules but you reckon you won't be found out, it's almost certainly in. See traction control, self erasing firmware, bendable floors etc etc. Plus a million other tricks we never heard about.Upon finding it's been judged legal, but not ethical, the quiet conversation they've had with the governing body is probably along the lines of "now you know how we did it, we wont do it anymore, but you need to cover off the regulations better".
It's an uneasy situation for the FIA; my take is they realise Ferrari found something, but if they so much as hint to other teams as to what it was, they'd have to investigate every single power unit supplier to ensure it was "legal but not ethical" in a similar fashion. This way, nobody tries it, they have their eyes on Ferrari alone, and no damage is done. The noise the other teams are making now, is to understand what Ferrari did, so they can work up their own version. But the FIA would open the flood gates and probably need to see the inner workings of each and every one, which might take as long as it did with Ferrari to ensure they're not operating out of bounds.
The FIA can't sanction a team for not breaking the rules. This whole mess is of their own making & the perception is (rightly or wrongly) that it's only because it's Ferrari that have been caught that they are getting away with a private agreement. This is a huge business worth billions; why should the FIA decide which team gets off with a private deal? One possible view is that it's being done to protect Ferraris reputation which is not a courtesy extended to other teams as far as we know.
It's just one more example of favouritsm towards Ferrari & as said previously there's no legimate reason whatsoever for them to retain their veto or get paid $100m a year for turning up. Why should the other teams have to compete on unequal terms?
Nobody knows exactly whats gone on, but I seem to remember Binotto commenting that the FIA have pulled them in for more scrutiny of their declared fuel weights (before and after sessions) than any other team.
That smacks of the FIA knew there was something afoot, but couldn't pinpoint it accurately.
I wonder if they could look at the data prior to Austin now they have seemed to have found the dodge and apply a penalty. Well possibly they could, but as has been mentioned, they are dealing with FIArrari...
Shame when a blatant performance advantage goes 'unrewarded'.
That smacks of the FIA knew there was something afoot, but couldn't pinpoint it accurately.
I wonder if they could look at the data prior to Austin now they have seemed to have found the dodge and apply a penalty. Well possibly they could, but as has been mentioned, they are dealing with FIArrari...
Shame when a blatant performance advantage goes 'unrewarded'.
It was a whistleblower from inside Ferrari, Ferrari had no choice but to cooperate, as nothing was found by the stewards the points remained, Ferrari went with the investigation and have paid the undisclosed fine.
The whistleblower has remained anonymous to date.
Coolant & oil on the fuel, along with additives which caused the fuel flow to miss count.
The whistleblower has remained anonymous to date.
Coolant & oil on the fuel, along with additives which caused the fuel flow to miss count.
Deesee said:
It was a whistleblower from inside Ferrari, Ferrari had no choice but to cooperate, as nothing was found by the stewards the points remained, Ferrari went with the investigation and have paid the undisclosed fine.
The whistleblower has remained anonymous to date.
Coolant & oil on the fuel, along with additives which caused the fuel flow to miss count.
You always seem to know quite a bit about F1 stuff. If it transpired the well known 'deesee' from the TV spent his spare time on PH that would be most amusing The whistleblower has remained anonymous to date.
Coolant & oil on the fuel, along with additives which caused the fuel flow to miss count.
Can't be the real one though as you don't swear enough!
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