Discussion
Just thinking about Lewis and Seb this morning.
Earlier in their F1 careers it appeared that Vettel was the more level headed of the two. Lewis had that brilliant debut season, but for the next few seasons (even including his 2008 championship season) he seemed a little prone to rash decisions and trying to win when a win wasn't always to be had. Since he went to Mercedes though he has matured immensely and now he seems to know when to push and when not to. At the weekend he knew holding Verstappen off wasn't on the cards and that he needed to preserve his tyres and engine so settled for trying for second from the 4th lap onwards. He would not have done that 5 years ago!
Seb on the other hand seems to have gone the other way. Those calm assured drives of the initial part of his career at RB (and TR) seem a thing of the past. Even when he has a great race his hot headedness seems to be just around the corner. He has the best all round car this year and I would have expected RB Seb to have won this championship at a canter yet through a series of errors (not always of his own making) he is staring down the end of a 34 point deficit to Hamilton who seems overall to be a very cool customer this season especially!
I also think he's lucky in that it could be worse for him had be got properly reprimanded about his driving in Baku.
If he can calm down and get a grip I think the Seb of old still stands a chance in these last 5 races, but he's just not like that these days... he will do something crazy for sure is my gut feeling.
Not really criticising either of them as I would be no use whatsoever in the situations they end up in, but it is interesting how they seem to have swapped roles. I know many will say it's easy to be cool in the car of the field, but it's more nuanced than that and anyway Seb is in the class of the field this year in many ways.
Earlier in their F1 careers it appeared that Vettel was the more level headed of the two. Lewis had that brilliant debut season, but for the next few seasons (even including his 2008 championship season) he seemed a little prone to rash decisions and trying to win when a win wasn't always to be had. Since he went to Mercedes though he has matured immensely and now he seems to know when to push and when not to. At the weekend he knew holding Verstappen off wasn't on the cards and that he needed to preserve his tyres and engine so settled for trying for second from the 4th lap onwards. He would not have done that 5 years ago!
Seb on the other hand seems to have gone the other way. Those calm assured drives of the initial part of his career at RB (and TR) seem a thing of the past. Even when he has a great race his hot headedness seems to be just around the corner. He has the best all round car this year and I would have expected RB Seb to have won this championship at a canter yet through a series of errors (not always of his own making) he is staring down the end of a 34 point deficit to Hamilton who seems overall to be a very cool customer this season especially!
I also think he's lucky in that it could be worse for him had be got properly reprimanded about his driving in Baku.
If he can calm down and get a grip I think the Seb of old still stands a chance in these last 5 races, but he's just not like that these days... he will do something crazy for sure is my gut feeling.
Not really criticising either of them as I would be no use whatsoever in the situations they end up in, but it is interesting how they seem to have swapped roles. I know many will say it's easy to be cool in the car of the field, but it's more nuanced than that and anyway Seb is in the class of the field this year in many ways.
I personally feel Lewis has matured due to having the best car on track since the new engines were produced.
When you have an advantage over the field with the best car your confidence will only increase race after race.
This is exactly the same with Vettel when he was at Red Bull winning Championships.
Vettel has been disappointing while at Ferrari. His temper tantrums and actions on track have been below par. Not what you would expect from a four time World Champion.
What will be interesting to see is if Mercedes do have issues with the car for the rest of this season and going into 2018 whether the calm and mature Lewis will hang around or if he too will start to become a "Vettel" when things are not going his way.
Time will tell but finally it is looking like Mercedes have some work to do in the coming months.
But Mercedes and Lewis must be delighted that Ferrari and Vettel seem intent on destroying their chances in 2017
When you have an advantage over the field with the best car your confidence will only increase race after race.
This is exactly the same with Vettel when he was at Red Bull winning Championships.
Vettel has been disappointing while at Ferrari. His temper tantrums and actions on track have been below par. Not what you would expect from a four time World Champion.
What will be interesting to see is if Mercedes do have issues with the car for the rest of this season and going into 2018 whether the calm and mature Lewis will hang around or if he too will start to become a "Vettel" when things are not going his way.
Time will tell but finally it is looking like Mercedes have some work to do in the coming months.
But Mercedes and Lewis must be delighted that Ferrari and Vettel seem intent on destroying their chances in 2017
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 4th October 11:31
glasgow mega snake said:
Sebastian vettel was beaten by Paul di Resta in F3. Around the same time, Lewis Hamilton, in his first year in F1, was beating his world champion team mate. Vettel is not on the same level as Hamilton. He knows it - he has vetoed Hamilton being his team mate in two different teams.
Can you remember the names of those who beat Lewis in his first two series of FR and his first series of F3?
There are several.
Hungrymc said:
I also think we're maybe being a bit harsh on Seb. The whole making sure the team is focused on him thing, and a bad year against Danny don't tell the whole story. He's put in some blinding drives this year alone... I think he's there or thereabouts with Lewis.
Agree about his season against Ricciardo, was just a bad season for him I think. A bit like 2011 was for Lewis. Happens sometimes.I think Seb and Lewis are pretty close, but Lewis has that undefinable quality that makes the true greats true greats... Senna and Schumacher had it, Seb is close but not quite there. That said if he wins the WDC this year he'll have 5 ... that's not to be sniffed at under any circumstances!
tankplanker said:
Our one reference point is Rosberg, but then Michael had a break from F1, Michael was older, and F1 had changed as well so was it really a fair test?
To be fair Rosberg kept him honest and kept Lewis honest too. People hate to admit it, but Rosberg was way better than many would like to believe and I don't think Michael's powers had diminished when he returned, just that at last he had a teammate who could keep up with him much of the time.None of that detracts from what he achieved though especially his part in rebuilding Ferrari. Part of being a top driver is making sure you're in the right team to win the WC (Alonso???), but Michael just built the team instead.
I think if anyone doubts Hamilton's ability behind the wheel they need to search out the Turkey 2006 GP2 race on YouTube. He had a spin at the start, did a very dodgy rejoin the race manoeuvre that could well have caused him strife with the stewards, but from then on drives one of the the best races I have ever seen to get a second place.... two more laps and he'd have won it. The last few overtakes have to be seen to be believed.
LDN said:
A few points; their respective careers pre F1; Hamilton is the better and more complete competitor; no doubt about it.
Hamilton is the only driver (EVER?) to win a race in every single season he's been in F1. Quite something given the dogs he's had.
Things like ROC are fun and I do agree a great gauge in some ways... but then again, Grosjean won ROC (if memory serves) some years back; so I suppose it's not the be all and end all. I think Heiki did also?
They're both masterful drivers though; no doubt abaout that.
Hamilton has had dogs of cars??Hamilton is the only driver (EVER?) to win a race in every single season he's been in F1. Quite something given the dogs he's had.
Things like ROC are fun and I do agree a great gauge in some ways... but then again, Grosjean won ROC (if memory serves) some years back; so I suppose it's not the be all and end all. I think Heiki did also?
They're both masterful drivers though; no doubt abaout that.
Seriously??
London424 said:
How's he getting on against his teammate this year?
Really??15 races
9 retirements or non finishes
2 non starts
Only been able to finish 4 races due to car issue or being taken out.
Not many drivers on the grid would cope with what he has been going through.
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 5th October 20:26
johnxjsc1985 said:
how did he fare when he was Hamilton's team-mate.
You have to wonder about his choices I can only assume the money eased any pain they may have caused him.
McLaren and Ron Dennis were backing Hamilton from an early age.You have to wonder about his choices I can only assume the money eased any pain they may have caused him.
There were many issues behind the scenes which made this a void argument.
Give Alonso a car which could challenge Mercedes or Ferrari and Alonso would take the title.
ELUSIVEJIM said:
McLaren and Ron Dennis were backing Hamilton from an early age.
There were many issues behind the scenes which made this a void argument.
Give Alonso a car which could challenge Mercedes or Ferrari and Alonso would take the title.
I know a bit about this from the inside and I can say that the first half of the season McLaren were fully expectant that Alosno would be comfortably ahead of Hamilton, by the end of the USA GP they changed their mind and realised they were backing the wrong horse.... from then on things went badly awry and I feel Alonso and McLaren were equally complicit in the bad feeling that grew between them and resulted in McLaren backing Hamilton more and more, but the fact remains that Alonso was a driver in exile by the end of the season for sure.There were many issues behind the scenes which made this a void argument.
Give Alonso a car which could challenge Mercedes or Ferrari and Alonso would take the title.
LDN said:
Button has also said that Hamilton is the fastest he's ever raced against... the team principals seem to consistently pick Hamilton as their number once choice. People well placed I'd say.
2007 was a fair fight; yes. What makes you say it wasn't? Grab that tin foil hat and let rip... Let me guess; McLaren paid an established world champion a zillion dollars - only to put in a rookie with the sole intention of undermining their world champ number one...
You're not 'one of those' are you?
2007 season2007 was a fair fight; yes. What makes you say it wasn't? Grab that tin foil hat and let rip... Let me guess; McLaren paid an established world champion a zillion dollars - only to put in a rookie with the sole intention of undermining their world champ number one...
You're not 'one of those' are you?
Alonso V Hamilton
Alonso 9 times finished higher than Hamilton during the season
Hamilton 6 times finished higher than Alonso during the season
Both had one retirement.
So head to head Alonso beat Hamilton when in a race situation.
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 8th October 16:15
angrymoby said:
more than accept it, just not really bothered as that's not the stats that people remember or even care about
How about some other 'facts'
he's soon to be X4 WDC
with X2 Teams
beating X3 fellow WDC's enroute
& he hasn't stopped yet
Enjoy.
Hopefully the Mercedes is not the best car on the grid for 2018. Then we will see.How about some other 'facts'
he's soon to be X4 WDC
with X2 Teams
beating X3 fellow WDC's enroute
& he hasn't stopped yet
Enjoy.
LDN said:
It's not the best car on the grid this year...
You really are, genuinely, daft; to put it mildly. Lewis has gotten poles in a slower car; purely by putting in some stonking quali laps. We've seen some of his best performances ever on that front. Proof being; Hamilton on pole; with the Ferrari's splitting the Merc's and Bottas further back.
Let's be honest; it doesn't matter how great a performance Hamilton puts in; week in week out; you'll just hold station. That makes you certain type of F1 fan I'm afraid.
It's not the best car on the grid this year??You really are, genuinely, daft; to put it mildly. Lewis has gotten poles in a slower car; purely by putting in some stonking quali laps. We've seen some of his best performances ever on that front. Proof being; Hamilton on pole; with the Ferrari's splitting the Merc's and Bottas further back.
Let's be honest; it doesn't matter how great a performance Hamilton puts in; week in week out; you'll just hold station. That makes you certain type of F1 fan I'm afraid.
Now that is a laugh.
How many championship has Lewis won in a crap car?
None.
He did nothing from 2010 to 2013 until he got the huge advantage of the Mercedes package in 2014.
Same with Vettel at Red Bull.
Slower teammate and the best car on the grid.
Shame Rosberg put the spanner in the works in 2016.
To be fair I would say the Merc and the Ferrari are on a par this year. There have been tracks where one is clearly quicker then the other and tracks where they are much closer, but overall the balance more or less evens out. The key is using the opportunities when they are there and Vettel screwed that up in Singapore.... reliability aside that is the main difference between them this year.
Dr Z said:
Oh since this is the thread of the day, I'll ask a question that could potentially rile up some.
Though I never watched the 2007 season when it happened, I've always considered Alonso's performance in the 2nd half of that season quite impressive. Whilst I agree that he was rattled by the speed of a rookie who had nothing to lose, I think it speaks to his immense mental toughness that he actually outscored said rookie from Hungary on, while looking over his shoulder with the whole team he's driving for, seemingly against him.
Put Lewis in the same situation, how would he perform?
Answers on a postcard please.
Oh you better not state anything like that on here.Though I never watched the 2007 season when it happened, I've always considered Alonso's performance in the 2nd half of that season quite impressive. Whilst I agree that he was rattled by the speed of a rookie who had nothing to lose, I think it speaks to his immense mental toughness that he actually outscored said rookie from Hungary on, while looking over his shoulder with the whole team he's driving for, seemingly against him.
Put Lewis in the same situation, how would he perform?
Answers on a postcard please.
You will be done for blasphemy.
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 9th October 14:04
VladD said:
Can you be looking over your should while stabbing someone in the back? Given Alonso's dexterity behind the wheel, I'd say it's definitely possible.
Considering Ron Dennis and McLaren were backing Hamilton from his Karting days it does not take a genius to work out what was going on behind the scenes.oyster said:
Hang on, you quote facts to back up your claim that Hamilton's record is great (and indeed it it - you're right on that).
But then go on to suggest that the Ferrari is better than the Mercedes despite the 'facts' looking like this:
Wins:
Mercedes 10 wins to Ferrari's 4
Mercedes 12 poles to Ferrari's 4
Mercedes 8 fastest laps to Ferrari's 5
Mercedes 21 podiums to Ferrari's 14
Mercedes 6 double podiums to Ferrari's 3
Mercedes 3 1-2's to Ferrari's 2
Mercedes 1 mechanical DNF to Ferarri's 4
And most of all - Mercedes 540 constructor points to Ferrari's 395.
If only Nico was still racing - we might still have a championship to play for.
Well played. But they will still argue that the Mercedes is not as good as the Ferrari.But then go on to suggest that the Ferrari is better than the Mercedes despite the 'facts' looking like this:
Wins:
Mercedes 10 wins to Ferrari's 4
Mercedes 12 poles to Ferrari's 4
Mercedes 8 fastest laps to Ferrari's 5
Mercedes 21 podiums to Ferrari's 14
Mercedes 6 double podiums to Ferrari's 3
Mercedes 3 1-2's to Ferrari's 2
Mercedes 1 mechanical DNF to Ferarri's 4
And most of all - Mercedes 540 constructor points to Ferrari's 395.
If only Nico was still racing - we might still have a championship to play for.
Deluded bunch.
C70R said:
Do you know, I always sigh a little inside when I see that you were the last person to contribute to a thread in the F1 subforum.
You're the worst poster here by a country mile - your contributions are inevitably puerile and argumentative. Please, for the sake of the rest of us, think before you post.
Worst poster due to not agreeing with the Lewis Hamilton fan club.You're the worst poster here by a country mile - your contributions are inevitably puerile and argumentative. Please, for the sake of the rest of us, think before you post.
That is basically it.
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