Are Red bull cheating?

[Niponeoff]

Mercedes were dominant, but we all knew they built a stonking engine and nailed the hybrid tech with split turbos, size zero and efficiency.

But RB is a mystery. There doesn't seem to be a silver bullet, no double diffuser, no new engine, no F duct or any particular tech that others aren't using.

I've watched podcasts, discussions and analysis and no one can seem to put a finger on it.

I'm not out to bash RB, I just wonder whether something will come out later, because it's so incredibly dominant in all areas and no one seems to know why.

Even if they aren't cheating and they have an F duct type device that is giving them an advantage, I wonder whether another team will suss it out?

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kalexan273 said:

Are Red Bull cheating? Probably not, though under the new revised rules they do seem to have designed a car that generates a good amount of downforce but also seems to be able to bleed that off more quickly than the rest as the car accelerates. Is there a way to do that through aero without using some sort of a mechanical device? I'm not sure, Mercedes was dabbling with Mass Dampers linked to the rear suspension in the 21 season but they got banned.

I watched a video on the Autosports youtube channel featuring Blake Hinsey, he's an ex Red Bull engineer, he seemed to think it's not just aero but also linked to the suspension design where the team is gaining an advantage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4uY1BO0hLY

Blake has his own channel on youtube 'brrrakef1', well worth a watch if you want to get a more tech view of the F1 cars.

https://www.youtube.com/@brrrake/about

I watched that and he basically didnt know, just made some guesses on how good it is with the tyres and keeping them within the window. It's easy to point to suspension for that. If you were to ask whats special about the suspension, no one will know.

i also watched the analysis of the wing and B-wing elements and they're less dragy concept in saudi.

This car has:

Fast one lap pace
Low tyre deg
High down force
Good low corner speed
Good medium corner speed
Quickest (one of) down the straight

There's usually a smoking gun that can be pointed at and analysed or a loophole that has been exploited, but everyone knows/learns about. I'm wondering if something will come out later, or someone will let the cat out the bag.

it might not necessarily be a cheat, just the usual clever interpretation aspect or a particular device that impacts the huge advantage we are seeing now.

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MustangGT said:

pablo said:

Newey deserves a lot of credit but it takes more than one man to design a modern F1 car, there is a whole team behind him, all bright people with a very specific area of expertise, Newey is good (I can’t fault a guy who races a GT40 in his spare time) but I’m sure even he would say the whole RB engineering team deserves greater recognition.

Yes, they have a very good team, I also wonder how much they learnt doing the Valkyrie project that would then carry over to F1 at zero cost within the cap.

All teams have been exploiting this I've heard. Aren't Ferrari in the same building as the regular guys.

RB have other teams and projects they service/advise on and have stepped this up.

I know someone joked about the A class isn't built in the same production line, but the Mercedes engine is very much a Mercedes product. They also had the one project to share resources on.

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ZX10R NIN said:

I think what they've done a lot of smart things all over the car that have added up to their advantage they have now, it'll be trimmed back over the coming seasons & just like Mercedes did to Ferrari if they can protest any team that gets close they will do.

There was no cheating when Mercedes had the same advantage, or were they cheating?

No they weren't but they were interpreting the rules to the best of their abilities & at times that meant they had a second a lap over the field for at least 3 seasons.

Edited by ZX10R NIN on Friday 7th April 20:46

Yes, but everyone knew why from the outset. They used a split turbo, better packaging (size zero), basically a better engine. These were all well known about and utilised concepts by other teams.

I've heard speculation why the rebuild is fast, but nothing specific. Just guesses and speculation.

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500TORQUES said:

Niponeoff said:

All teams have been exploiting this I've heard. Aren't Ferrari in the same building as the regular guys.

RB have other teams and projects they service/advise on and have stepped this up.

I know someone joked about the A class isn't built in the same production line, but the Mercedes engine is very much a Mercedes product. They also had the one project to share resources on.

HPP was previously known as Ilmore Engineering who provided Mercedes badged race engines to F1 and Indycar. That is where the engineering DNA comes from, a British engineering company bought and renamed by Mercedes. It's a subsiduary standalone business of Mercedes based in Brixworth.

And they were involved in the Mercedes one, a road car. They even use the tech in the C63 and other hybrid cars.

Ilmore penske broke off and still exist.

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tight fart said:

If they are cheating it has to be by the battery power, we can all see the car and if it was something aero it would be spotted pretty quickly by those in the know.
If it was the engine I think they would also pickup on it by audio etc.
That leaves the battery.
Probably the hardest to check and easiest to hide by software.

That's just it, there's a bunch of aero experts on't toob, you'd think they'd be waxing lyrical over a specific aero device they might notice.

You could be on to something with battery deployment or maybe some high tech battery hardware. But then don't AT use the same?

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GiantCardboardPlato said:

Don’t forget that because of the way the red bull setup works, some of their costs would be defrayed by spending by Alfa Tauri. I.e. they’d have more resource available for less because it’s shared by another team.

You can say that for any team that sells parts.

Mercedes sells engines to half the grid
Suspension, gearbox etc to AM
Half the car too Williams
Etc..

Ferrari sell half the car too Haas

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gt_12345 said:

PhilAsia said:

gt_12345 said:

Jasandjules said:

They did cheat by breaking the cost cap and it is arguable that this breach has led to the current package.

If the other teams spent an additional $400k, do you think they would have Red Bull's performance?

As we are all aware - and RB take great care to explain to all that are paying attention - any additional illegal overspend would never have improved Red Bull's performance in any area. It is only overspends of $400,001 and above that deliver any measurable improvement... as recorded in the annuls of F1 motorsport history.

So dropping the sarcasm, had the other teams spent that additional $400k-$1.8m too, they would have the same performance as RB this year?

I think that is unlikely. RB took a huge leap forward this year and Ferrari pretty much went backwards. Everyone forgets that Ferrari were making racecars during the ground effect era.

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Siao said:

500TORQUES said:

HustleRussell said:

Lewis will have blocks of wood on the pedals.

I did that once at Goodwood FOS to get a tiny pro driver in the car for a day.

I always remember poor Takuma:

I'm sure there's a joke in their somewhere regarding favourable height when meeting a grid girl, but in today's world that would be misogynistic and various other ist's, so I'll refrain from making it.

[Niponeoff]

I think we're getting side tracked with the cost cap stuff, I really don't think it applies.

I used cheating on the title in the loosest sense because it's F1 and all teams are looking at ways to exploit the rules. Only the best at it can achieve the lofty status of cheat.

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MustangGT said:

gt_12345 said:

Jasandjules said:

gt_12345 said:

And whatever amount it was, you are implying that overspend is the cause for their performance.

So, if the other teams had spent the same amount, you are implying they would have the same performance.

No I am saying they cheated and have been allowed to get away with it and that they would not have spent the money had it not resulted in better performance. But a cheat is a cheat is a cheat and they should have been removed from the WCC and WDC for it.

Let me ask you this, when an athlete - say Lance Armstrong, is found to have cheated, do they check what level of performance was gained? Do they enquire as to whether he would have won if the others took the same amount of drugs? Nope. Because it is not relevant. A cheat is a cheat is a cheat and they should be banned.

Yet in F1 we allow cheats to continue to profit from their cheating. IT is not a sport but a TV show now.

So Red Bull's performance has nothing to do with the overspend. Thanks for clearing that up.

GT, are you being deliberately obtuse?

Of course the RB performance was improved by overspending the budget, they would not have done so otherwise.

I assume that's a joke as we don't even know where the overspend was, well we do but no one believes them that its catering. If it is, then buying curly chips instead of straight ones won't amount to much performance.

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simon_harris said:

Siao said:

Sure, deduction was in the cards, as well as exclusion from stages (not races). Max finished 150 points ahead of Leclerc last year, not sure how a deduction would have flipped the WDC. That would be taking away 6 wins from Max, it would never happen. The identical line to the AM statement could be because both teams cooperated?

As I mentioned before, I am not sure how much was deliberate and how much was a mistake (most likely a combination of both), but for me one thing is for sure; by not doing the test run, they didn't iron out these things, they tried to be smart and they were found wanting. Paid the price

I don't get this line of thinking that red bull exceeded the cost cap "by mistake" they knew exactly what they were doing and how much they were spending. At my most charitable I could think about accepting that they though they were being clever with their interpretation of the rules, but in reality I think they tactically gamed the system and banked on the fact that the punishment would be worth the infringement.

They knew how much Liberty wanted to see a new team at the top and knew the uproar that would ensue if a championship were taken away from them.

At my most deeply cynical then I would say liberty, the FIA and Red Bull were all in cahoots to enable a change at the top of the F1 tree to make it more palatable for new "fans" coming into the sport.

I would say all the top teams are maximizing their budget potential and employing very clever accountants on par with the best engineers to maximise this rule change.

Its more likely, the other teams used better accountants.

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MustangGT said:

Not a joke at all. Any overspend would be towards improving the car performance. Items included in the budget cap were defined. You spend more on 'catering' then it leaves less for R&D. Therefore every single penny overspent is actually spent on car performance improvement.

No it isn't.

Two teams can spend identically on everything, except catering. Which was where the overspend was recorded.

An overspend on catering doesn't mean they spent more on something else.

[Niponeoff]

I guess we'll find out in Japan if Singapore was an anomaly or a result of the TD changes.

[Niponeoff]

Voldemort said:

gt_12345 said:

Muzzer79 said:

Bo_apex said:

Red Bull are clearly slacking, they've got a long way to go

https://gpracingstats.com/constructors/mercedes/

Are they/have they?

They don't look too far behind to me and, at this rate, will overtake race wins, poles and podiums at least by the end of 2025 whilst drawing level on titles.

How do Mercedes have 9x WDCs?

Lewis won six at Mercedes and Rosberg got one?

They don't have 9: they have 13.

Fangio x2 Chassis & Engine
Häkkinen x2 Engine
Button Engine
Hamilton 6 Chassis & 7 Engine
Rosberg Chassis & Engine

Crikey! I've seen some barrel scraping for facts, but that takes the biscuit!

Does honda get included with RB?

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500TORQUES said:

Voldemort said:

The constructors championship has always acknowledged chassis and engine as separate components. Some teams do their own engine and some (most?) do not. The engine manufacturer has always been able to claim the glory of a championship if they are not the same the chassis manufacturer.

McLaren Honda
Brawn Mercedes
Red Bull Renault
McLaren TAG
Tyrrell Ford
Lotus Climax
etc.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Formula_One_...

There is no engine championship.

Team naming often includes engine manufacturers, but they also include other sponsors such as Oracle and Malborough.

Not only that, Renault didn't claim any of RB's championships, even though they supplied the engine. Would be a bit of to win and lose in the same season.