Discussion
julian64 said:
I'm not questioning the 9K. I think its very easy to spend 9K on these cars with BMW depending on what sort of owner you are. I don't know this chap from adam, and to be honest all we know of posters is what they tell us on the forums.
I don't consider myself a car expert, but I suppose what I'm trying to say is that it doesn't take a car expert to challenge what he is saying. I have an M5 BMW E39. Its cost not a lot in ownage over the past seven years. I HAVE REPLACED THE CLUTCH in the car and it wasn't any more difficult than when I recently replaced the clutch in an E36 for my father, and the clutch pack was similarly priced. Over the time I have had the car, and the jobs I can remember I have done the normal servicing, replaced two wheel bearings, one caliper, rear axle mounts, one brake tube, and a number of electrical gremlins including rear bonnet failure, not charging, restraint system packing up etc etc. I researched vanos to buy a car after the vanos upgrade, and went in with my eyes open by researching what I would need to do if I had a vanos problem. Unlike almost any other car the information to do almost any job on a BMW is posted all over the internet, including the M cars, and the parts are plentiful in supply.
I don't think my list of problems were any more than what I would have expected of a standard car with now 140K on the clock, or any less. The costs of replacement items have been very reasonable, and the car is the same as any BMW, a pleasure to work on, compared with TVRs et al. If I had taken that car to a dealer for that lot I could easily see a bill for over 9K in any one year.
I'm not critisizing anyone for being the sort of person who takes that lot to a BMW to sort out, or likes their normal servicing to end with an official BMW stamp. I am critising him for posting that there is only one way to maintain a BMW, and you have to have deep pockets. It simply isn't true, and whether he is an owner with a lot a experience or none at all, to post that is wrong, and pretty damn discouraging for anyone looking at these cars who is prepared to put the effort in.
So based on your single experience where you have provided no indication of what work your car may have had prior to your ownership, you can confidently assert that all E39 M5s are no more costly to run than their cooking counterparts?I don't consider myself a car expert, but I suppose what I'm trying to say is that it doesn't take a car expert to challenge what he is saying. I have an M5 BMW E39. Its cost not a lot in ownage over the past seven years. I HAVE REPLACED THE CLUTCH in the car and it wasn't any more difficult than when I recently replaced the clutch in an E36 for my father, and the clutch pack was similarly priced. Over the time I have had the car, and the jobs I can remember I have done the normal servicing, replaced two wheel bearings, one caliper, rear axle mounts, one brake tube, and a number of electrical gremlins including rear bonnet failure, not charging, restraint system packing up etc etc. I researched vanos to buy a car after the vanos upgrade, and went in with my eyes open by researching what I would need to do if I had a vanos problem. Unlike almost any other car the information to do almost any job on a BMW is posted all over the internet, including the M cars, and the parts are plentiful in supply.
I don't think my list of problems were any more than what I would have expected of a standard car with now 140K on the clock, or any less. The costs of replacement items have been very reasonable, and the car is the same as any BMW, a pleasure to work on, compared with TVRs et al. If I had taken that car to a dealer for that lot I could easily see a bill for over 9K in any one year.
I'm not critisizing anyone for being the sort of person who takes that lot to a BMW to sort out, or likes their normal servicing to end with an official BMW stamp. I am critising him for posting that there is only one way to maintain a BMW, and you have to have deep pockets. It simply isn't true, and whether he is an owner with a lot a experience or none at all, to post that is wrong, and pretty damn discouraging for anyone looking at these cars who is prepared to put the effort in.
Great, where do I sign?
Back to reality however... given the minor maintenance work you have carried out thus far, I assume that you have owned the car in its twilight years; most likely after many of the suspension bushes were replaced ('rear axle mounts' notwithstanding). Certainly the absence of any mention of such leads me to conclude that this can be the only answer. Likewise the cooling system, which is notoriously weak and usually tends to fail in one way or another before 100k miles. In any case, your prudence is to be applauded, but perhaps you're not telling the full story?
For what it's worth, I've never taken any of my cars to a dealer save for when I've owned one still under warranty. Every other car has gone instead to a trusted independent. Unfortunately I have neither the time nor the inclination to get my hands dirty myself (a situation I'm sure many others can empathise with). Were you to pay someone for his time, your maintenance bill would naturally have increased to a level commensurate with what it would take to run one of these cars where DIY maintenace is not practicable.
Finally, to what level are you prepared to let things slip versus keeping the car in 100% working order? This of course will also impact the level of expenditure required to keep the car functional as opposed to perfect. I'll admit, I fall into the latter camp: I'm a perfectionist. I need a car to work properly with zero compromise. If the damping isn't spot-on at 80k miles for instance, then it needs fixing. Leaky diff seal (which would otherwise remain undetected at MOT time)? It needs to be replaced. Otherwise, what's the point in owning a high performance car? So, certainly there are ways to cut corners and save money if all one cares about is getting the car its annual ticket. Oh, and a lot depends on usage of course. It stands to reason that an M5 which does 1k a year, will cost less to run than one which does 20k a year (like mine). But then, why would you buy a practical four-door saloon car to never use?
Why am I not surprised to see Julian talking rubbish again........Julian, you run your M5 on 95ron all the time (and supposedly see absolutely no benefit to 98+) Don't you think that sort of demonstrates you have a different 'style' of ownership than most others?
Neither have I taken my M5 to a dealer but I maintain they are NOT cheap cars to run.
Out of the 11 cars I've owned in recent years it's been the most expensive.
You need to go into M5 ownership with eyes open wide and that applies to all editions.
I don't deny there aren't the exception to this but they're the exception. Not the rule.
Neither have I taken my M5 to a dealer but I maintain they are NOT cheap cars to run.
Out of the 11 cars I've owned in recent years it's been the most expensive.
You need to go into M5 ownership with eyes open wide and that applies to all editions.
I don't deny there aren't the exception to this but they're the exception. Not the rule.
Edited by Reindeer on Wednesday 4th January 23:58
Great Pretender said:
Finally, to what level are you prepared to let things slip versus keeping the car in 100% working order? This of course will also impact the level of expenditure required to keep the car functional as opposed to perfect. I'll admit, I fall into the latter camp: I'm a perfectionist. I need a car to work properly with zero compromise. If the damping isn't spot-on at 80k miles for instance, then it needs fixing. Leaky diff seal (which would otherwise remain undetected at MOT time)? It needs to be replaced. Otherwise, what's the point in owning a high performance car? So, certainly there are ways to cut corners and save money if all one cares about is getting the car its annual ticket. Oh, and a lot depends on usage of course. It stands to reason that an M5 which does 1k a year, will cost less to run than one which does 20k a year (like mine). But then, why would you buy a practical four-door saloon car to never use?
Completely agree. As myself and GP have said these cars can be 'run' in various levels of poor repair and SEEM ok to some people but it depends on your standards. I pride myself on high standards especially with cars (and women). I have done extensive research over many years into the costs associated with running an E39 M5 properly. And sadly, despite the M5 being my all time dream car and the reason I bought a 530i Sport in the first place (It looked similar and was half the price back in the days when all the M5's were over 20 grand), all my research points to Great Pretender being the one who is spot on here and not julian. I can't stand bodging - if its broken, it must work. If it's damaged, it must be replaced. To run an M5 properly, from what I can see, costs enormous amounts of money.
Which is why I stick with my physically the same inside and out yet mechanically sadly inferior 530i Sport and stare with lust at pictures of M5's instead.
Mind you, I guess I perhaps spend as much money running my 530i properly (£200 each for tyres, £360 for its last service at BMW, etc) as some do bodging M5's... but thats just not how I'd enjoy running any car let alone an M5.
Part of what makes the M5 so special is that it offers supercar grade performance. Thats never cheap, done properly.
Which is why I stick with my physically the same inside and out yet mechanically sadly inferior 530i Sport and stare with lust at pictures of M5's instead.
Mind you, I guess I perhaps spend as much money running my 530i properly (£200 each for tyres, £360 for its last service at BMW, etc) as some do bodging M5's... but thats just not how I'd enjoy running any car let alone an M5.
Part of what makes the M5 so special is that it offers supercar grade performance. Thats never cheap, done properly.
Edited by Fox- on Wednesday 4th January 23:57
Reindeer said:
More seriously though, keep saving mate. They're worth it. 
It's not even that - I could buy one tommorrow (Heck I spent twice the going rate of a good M5 on a bloody 335i last year and hated it). I just think I'd grow to resent the level of expenditure in ways I don't currently with the 530.If you got one that had gone through the 80-100,000 mile 'overhaul' then you could be pleasantly surprised. Just think of the initial cost you'd save with the price of the e39 m5 and put that towards upkeep. I've spent approx £4000 making mine perfect and fingers crossed she'll be fine until I worry enough about doing rod bearings.
My first M5 was an AUC and it didn't cost me a bean apart from an oil service. This was "cheap" motoring for an M5. However, my friend bought it off me and within a fortnight he'd cooked the clutch and then the brakes. Now I didn't drive it like I stole it, but it did 'Ring trips without complaint in my ownership. Perhaps I just don't have the "delicate touch of a rapist" when it comes to driving? 
My 2nd M5 had already had a clutch when I bought it. It was a 2002 car with mature owners and FBMWSH. I travelled over to Belfast to purchase it. It needed the wheels refurbing and new rubber all round, but apart from that it drove very nicely and was a couple of days detailing away from looking great.
On my return I took it over to Onkar at OSC in Rugby and we came up with a list of things to do. This list included a weeping diff seal (so we did all of them), the odd bush here and there, 2 airbox breather pipes under the bonnet and some other sundries. Probably about £700 of work. Could've been worse.
Fast forward 8 months and the PAS pipe was leaking so that was replaced. Another £300 or so. At this point, I was doing 2k miles a month, so a change of car was required. I'd noticed that someone on PH had been looking for an M5 and we discussed mine and struck a deal. The following week the bearing in the diff decided to lunch itself, so that was replaced and I had the diff rebuilt. Another £700 or so and of course, I couldn't get any more for the car at that point as I'd agreed the sale price. Annoying, but hardly the end of the world. BMW wanted £3k for a replacement diff! Ha Ha!
Now I know the history of "my" M5 for the last 30k miles or so and I can say that in that time, the maintenance above and beyond regular servicing stands at approx £3k. Perhaps even a little more. Ignoring normal consumables, this doesn't seem too bad considering the performance of the car.
I suppose that at £10–13k for a decent example, they represent great purchase value. What they will never offer is cheap performance motoring.
Unfortunately many M5's have been bought by unsuspecting individuals having not been maintained properly by the previous keeper. Put it this way. GP has been particularly unlucky. Julian has been particularly fortunate. However, I know which car I'd choose if both were up for sale. It wouldn't be the one with minimal additional maintenance!
My 2nd M5 had already had a clutch when I bought it. It was a 2002 car with mature owners and FBMWSH. I travelled over to Belfast to purchase it. It needed the wheels refurbing and new rubber all round, but apart from that it drove very nicely and was a couple of days detailing away from looking great.
On my return I took it over to Onkar at OSC in Rugby and we came up with a list of things to do. This list included a weeping diff seal (so we did all of them), the odd bush here and there, 2 airbox breather pipes under the bonnet and some other sundries. Probably about £700 of work. Could've been worse.
Fast forward 8 months and the PAS pipe was leaking so that was replaced. Another £300 or so. At this point, I was doing 2k miles a month, so a change of car was required. I'd noticed that someone on PH had been looking for an M5 and we discussed mine and struck a deal. The following week the bearing in the diff decided to lunch itself, so that was replaced and I had the diff rebuilt. Another £700 or so and of course, I couldn't get any more for the car at that point as I'd agreed the sale price. Annoying, but hardly the end of the world. BMW wanted £3k for a replacement diff! Ha Ha!
Now I know the history of "my" M5 for the last 30k miles or so and I can say that in that time, the maintenance above and beyond regular servicing stands at approx £3k. Perhaps even a little more. Ignoring normal consumables, this doesn't seem too bad considering the performance of the car.
I suppose that at £10–13k for a decent example, they represent great purchase value. What they will never offer is cheap performance motoring.
Unfortunately many M5's have been bought by unsuspecting individuals having not been maintained properly by the previous keeper. Put it this way. GP has been particularly unlucky. Julian has been particularly fortunate. However, I know which car I'd choose if both were up for sale. It wouldn't be the one with minimal additional maintenance!
I suppose I'm tempting fate by writing this as I've literally just dropped my car off with Phil Crouch for a routine inspection, but in 14 months and 7k miles of ownership my total investment so far has come in less than £10K including the purchase price, which IMO is a pretty good deal given the performance, competence and desirability on offer.
My car wants for nothing (in fact it's off to the bodyshop later this month for a respray). Straightforward items such as fluids, filters and brake refresh done by myself, while CPC has done the bigger items such as bushes, front control arms, diff seal and rocker-cover gaskets.
Of course these cars can't be run on a shoestring, but this is one more owner's experience which suggests they don't have to be the wallet-pillaging moneypits they are often made out to be. Even if the VANOS and main bearings go,I can get both sorted for <2K all in - not pocket change, but not crippling either.
When I bought my car it was the cheapest in the PH classifieds - in fact it was so cheap, and the advert so poorly written, that it spawned its own PH thread with the usual naysayers advising to avoid like the proverbial bargepole. Of course my experience may be an exception rather than the rule, but I'm glad I didn't take the advice.
My car wants for nothing (in fact it's off to the bodyshop later this month for a respray). Straightforward items such as fluids, filters and brake refresh done by myself, while CPC has done the bigger items such as bushes, front control arms, diff seal and rocker-cover gaskets.
Of course these cars can't be run on a shoestring, but this is one more owner's experience which suggests they don't have to be the wallet-pillaging moneypits they are often made out to be. Even if the VANOS and main bearings go,I can get both sorted for <2K all in - not pocket change, but not crippling either.
When I bought my car it was the cheapest in the PH classifieds - in fact it was so cheap, and the advert so poorly written, that it spawned its own PH thread with the usual naysayers advising to avoid like the proverbial bargepole. Of course my experience may be an exception rather than the rule, but I'm glad I didn't take the advice.
plenty said:
When I bought my car it was the cheapest in the PH classifieds - in fact it was so cheap, and the advert so poorly written, that it spawned its own PH thread with the usual naysayers advising to avoid like the proverbial bargepole. Of course my experience may be an exception rather than the rule, but I'm glad I didn't take the advice.
It seems they were right though if a year ago you bought a very cheap M5 and have since spent almost £10k inc purchase price on it? It must have been what, £5-6k? So it's cost you almost another £4k? Which I guess was everyones point.I think the problem comes when the sort of people buying a £5k M5 are the sort of people who would otherwise have bought a £5k Focus Zetec and now think they can afford an M5 because they've spent the last year saving up £5k.
If thats not you, which if you consider a bill of £2k 'not a big deal' (I agree with you on that, but it highlighs your relative wealth) it probably isn't, then an M5 is a stupid idea.
Trouble is the majority of people buying these cheapies ARE the people who really cannot afford to keep them. And here begins the gradual spiral into borkydeath of most of the E39 M5's.
A real shame.
Fox- said:
Are they fake BBS wheels and Nangkang tyres? 
Looks awesome mind... The wheels really suit it.
You would have to be mad to spend £1k a corner on our roads. So I spent the saved money and a lot more with Evolve for some decent tuning.Looks awesome mind... The wheels really suit it.
As for the tyres they came with the alloys as they were the only make they had in stock in the size I wanted and the bloody things still ain't worn out over a year later
inkiboo said:
Oh wow, I thought the fake BBS and tyres reference was a joke!
In the correct size and offset for the M5, genuine BBS LM's with a decent set of tyres will be 4 grand or more and as far as I know they are not available to buy singularly which considering the state of our roads is not good.M5 Russ said:
In the correct size and offset for the M5, genuine BBS LM's with a decent set of tyres will be 4 grand or more and as far as I know they are not available to buy singularly which considering the state of our roads is not good.
I'll never agree with the tyres but I do with the wheels. I'm generally not a fan of replicas but the price of BBS LM's is just insanely high - I genuinelly wonder who can honestly justify £3200 on wheels without tyres.They do suit the E39 so well, they look fantastic. I'd have a set (Though on Eagles
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