RE: Spotted: BMW 320Si
Discussion
kambites said:
stevesingo said:
kambites said:
stevesingo said:
I think the comparison with the E30 M3 is misunderstood by most here, who seem to be interested in the bigger engine, more horsepower willy waving.
I'm certainly not one of them, my car has significantly less power than this, but to my mind the E90 3-series simply wasn't a viable platform for such a car - it's simply too big, too heavy and too numb. Like I said, fit for purpose.
I didn't say it wouldn't make a good racing car? We're talking about a road car here. I fully understand the reason for its existence - to make money for its manufacturer, just like (one way or another) every other road car ever made.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 30th January 15:32
Aim: Sell required number of cars for homologation of WTCC specific parts, whilst not costing a significant amount of money to do so.
Result: 320Si at about £24k in 2006.
I'd be surprised if BMW made any profit on the cars themselves, given the cost of R&D on the engine and the reletive low numbers involved.
I'm sure BMW are not loosing any sleep that they missed an opportunity to create something to please the masses. Besides, if they added more bling in the way of more power, bigger brakes ect this would have added greatly to the cost and pushed the price to a point where the 320Si would have been competing with 330i ect, and as most have said, the 330i would have been a better car for most. Strip it out and the price doesn't drop so significantly and you then struggle for buyers because the market prefers cars that are easy to live with.
It is what it is.
Maldini35 said:
Usget said:
I'm not missing the point, or at least I don't think I am.
I realise that the raison d'etre for turbo-nutter-b
d homologation specials disappeared when Group A went West. I'm just saying that this was a missed opportunity for BMW to say "well, we're sending it out there specifically to homologate these new parts and frankly we don't give a stuff if we make any money on it. Let's strip it out a bit, give it a bit more oomph, and make something which has a chance of being remembered as a cult classic, thereby strengthening our brand and ultimately improving our cars' residuals." Bottom line - another few ponies and some visual cues wouldn't have gone amiss even if they were ultimately wholly unnecessary.
I agree. I really like the idea of this car. Such a shame they didn't give it a bit more attention.I realise that the raison d'etre for turbo-nutter-b
d homologation specials disappeared when Group A went West. I'm just saying that this was a missed opportunity for BMW to say "well, we're sending it out there specifically to homologate these new parts and frankly we don't give a stuff if we make any money on it. Let's strip it out a bit, give it a bit more oomph, and make something which has a chance of being remembered as a cult classic, thereby strengthening our brand and ultimately improving our cars' residuals." Bottom line - another few ponies and some visual cues wouldn't have gone amiss even if they were ultimately wholly unnecessary. The purpose of this car was to homologate the parts it required to take their car to the WTCC circus.
The cost of producing the homologation batch would undoubtedly be high, and they would need to shift the numbers to allow them to use to parts in their race cars. Including those parts into a package that was even more expensive to manufacture, and therefore have an even smaller audience, would unnecessarily jeopardise their race project.
The 320Si acheived what it needed to, and the WTCC car was a massive success. The M3 GTS was the car that let the engineers let their hair down a bit, and make a car for next to zero profit. Arguably they didn't do as great a job of it as they did with the E46 CSL, however they never the less got their "playtime" model.
Trying to acheive both goals with the same product would have been a borderline foolish way to do things.
Please don't read the above as some kind of dislike for the "turbo-nutter-b
d" cars of yesteryear. They are some of my favourite machines of all times, and I've been lucky enough to own a couple too. Even the most extreme examples of these are built with compromises and corner cutting. Escort Cosworths have water injection tanks not plumbed in. RS500 Sierras had 4 injections unconnected. Alfa 155s came with spoilers in the boot and not fitted etc etc.The manufacturers hated homologating cars because it was such an expensive process. It's a big reason why the link between road cars and touring cars is all but broken - to bring the costs of racing down, road cars rarely get homologated these days.
It is therefore little surprise BMW did the minimum necessary for the 320si. Besides, what would a batch of carbon cam covers have cost back in 2006? Take that off the costs of these cars and they were being sold for an absolute bargain.
The E30 M3 was being sold for what, at least twice the price of a boggo 318i? The 320si was sold for LESS than a 320i. The cars aren't directly comparable but that doesn't mean the 320si isn't the spiritual successor to the E30 M3; it really is.
It would be interesting to see how the 320si would go against, say, 125i/325i around Cadwell for a day.
It is therefore little surprise BMW did the minimum necessary for the 320si. Besides, what would a batch of carbon cam covers have cost back in 2006? Take that off the costs of these cars and they were being sold for an absolute bargain.
The E30 M3 was being sold for what, at least twice the price of a boggo 318i? The 320si was sold for LESS than a 320i. The cars aren't directly comparable but that doesn't mean the 320si isn't the spiritual successor to the E30 M3; it really is.
It would be interesting to see how the 320si would go against, say, 125i/325i around Cadwell for a day.
I have no love for this at all.....
To be honest. Its a POS isnt it.
10kg is so little its not worth mentioning.
Its not the spirtual successor to the e30 either.
If anything that would be the 1m.
The Original E30 non evo would show this P.o.s a clean pair of heels.
Even the brazil only E30 320is made more power from the same size and is far cooler in every way.
No. Just NO.
To be honest. Its a POS isnt it.
10kg is so little its not worth mentioning.
Its not the spirtual successor to the e30 either.
If anything that would be the 1m.
The Original E30 non evo would show this P.o.s a clean pair of heels.
Even the brazil only E30 320is made more power from the same size and is far cooler in every way.
No. Just NO.
stevesingo said:
Your talking about a road car, BMW were talking about a car, fit for the road, used to homologate some aspects that were fixed by the WTCC regulations. The whole exercise was never about making a great, iconic road car.
Oh I agree, I know why they made it. That doesn't change that fact that it was probably always going to be a poor road car, though. 
braddo said:
Just had a thought - were there similar arguments going on in the 80s?
"Why would you buy a M3 when you can get a 325i that sounds better, has the steering wheel on the correct side and is a lot cheaper? The M3 is overpriced and too slow, BMW are just taking the mick."
Yes ^ "Why would you buy a M3 when you can get a 325i that sounds better, has the steering wheel on the correct side and is a lot cheaper? The M3 is overpriced and too slow, BMW are just taking the mick."
Some 80s BMW 'purists' were dismayed it didn't have a 6-cylinder engine.
It nearly had a turbo but the BMW board told the engine designer that would have been a step too far
Yes it is an 'enthusiast' car and I'm glad they made it.
Given the number of engine failures reported, I'm glad I didn't buy one.
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=611...
Steve
Given the number of engine failures reported, I'm glad I didn't buy one.
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=611...
Steve
Paul M said:
I would have thought that the author would have answered for himself.
Apologies for being late to the party with a response but, to answer your point, I guess the comparison I was making was that both the E30 M3 and Si share a common thread in that they were road cars built to homologate their racing equivalents. I don't imply that they're necessarily similar to drive, comparable in performance or, indeed, the depth or extend of the modifications. As a true M car the M3 is a much more heavily upgraded car with extensive changes throughout. As has already been pointed out, the 320Si was basically a normal 3 Series shell with a homologation engine and - in terms of its position in the range and the performance relative to other models - indeed probably a closer match to the 318iS in spirit. I was being a bit cheeky/provocative saying it was the true successor to the E30 M3 but, hell, it got everyone chatting didn't it! My *personal* enthusiasm for this car is that for all the conventional looks and lack of modification elsewhere it's packing a carbon-topped race engine with direct links to the WTCC car. That's novelty enough for me. Not everyone, clearly, and I can understand why the lack of on-paper performance isn't to universal taste.
Yes, to answer an earlier point, I'd probably be better off with a re-mapped 320d my any rational measure. But PH isn't about rational approaches to choosing cars is it. Which is why *I* love this car and felt moved to write a story on it in the hope a few others would too.
Hope that answers the points you raise!
Cheers,
Dan
braddo said:
Just had a thought - were there similar arguments going on in the 80s?
"Why would you buy a M3 when you can get a 325i that sounds better, has the steering wheel on the correct side and is a lot cheaper? The M3 is overpriced and too slow, BMW are just taking the mick."
Yes - not on the internet, obviously, but that was a common argument. Moreover, most people would have pointed at a Sierra Cosworth and suggested that as it was cheaper AND faster you'd be crazy to buy the BM"Why would you buy a M3 when you can get a 325i that sounds better, has the steering wheel on the correct side and is a lot cheaper? The M3 is overpriced and too slow, BMW are just taking the mick."
Ironically, both are now worth muchos money so...
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