RE: BMW M5: PH Fleet

[Ares]

Max_Torque said:

Ares said:

Max_Torque said:

......very, very few of those cars will every gets driven anywhere the limit of their capabilities (because they are to fast and modern road conditions and laws make them un-useable in-extremis).

I'm guessing you've never had a car of that capability. The often trotted out rhetoric about not being able to use anything like such a cars unusable is rubbish. My car has 510hp, but a similar PWR to the M5.....I get to properly use it plenty, as getting through a set of tyres in c8,000 miles will testify

Max_Torque said:

Given that the 6cly diesel 5er does 155 mph and 0-60 in 5 odd seconds, there is no realistic on-road scenario where you could get anywhere any quicker in the M5 (unless you live in Scotland and are also willing to take absolutely massive risks in the way you drive, which most people with £100k to spend on a car aren't)

I also came from a 6-cyl diesel BMW, and one with 370bhp rather than the 530d with 100bhp less. Trust me when I say I can get everywhere significantly faster now, than I could in the oil burner

Edited by Ares on Tuesday 17th April 17:43

You're quite right about never having a two tonne barge with 600 bhp. My >600 bhp car weighs 880 kg.....

;-)

Regarding the "i can get places quicker in M5 than an 535d" well, perhaps you can, but i sure as heck don't want to meet you coming the other way!

My std 335d will easily do well into 3 figures on an average A/B road, so you're gonna have to be doing >120 mph on such roads to get anywhere quicker. Which lets be honest, is reckless in the extreme. What speed do you sit on the m/way for example? You'd have to be doing >150 to "get away" from a 535d in reality......,

Any do you get to use that car properly? (or could you if it isn't road legal?)

I'm not interested in 'getting away from' a prick in a diesel doing three figures on an A/B road, or a motorway. I also never do three figures on a motorway, typical motorway cruise will be between 70 & 80 - if that's a metric for comparison, a 1.4l Audi A4 is quicker....but there is way way way more to driving than doing high speed on dull roads.

By your logic, why have you got a 335d, when a 320d would be just as quick in your real world.

[Ares]

popeyewhite said:

Ares said:

popeyewhite said:

Ares said:

popeyewhite said:

I wonder how many go for standard spec. Spending that much most people would probably not baulk at £15k more on options... .

To assume someone buying/leasing/financing an £87k car would carefree-ly add £15,000 is a little naive I'm afraid.

Not sure you understood what I wrote.

I understood, I'm not sure you understood my point though

Oh, OK your mummy smells etc...

Now I don't understand your point

(my explanation was in the part of the post you deleted )

[theboss]

Max_Torque said:

You're quite right about never having a two tonne barge with 600 bhp. My >600 bhp car weighs 880 kg.....

;-)

Regarding the "i can get places quicker in M5 than an 535d" well, perhaps you can, but i sure as heck don't want to meet you coming the other way!

My std 335d will easily do well into 3 figures on an average A/B road, so you're gonna have to be doing >120 mph on such roads to get anywhere quicker. Which lets be honest, is reckless in the extreme. What speed do you sit on the m/way for example? You'd have to be doing >150 to "get away" from a 535d in reality......,

What do you have that produces >600bhp and weighs 880kg? Genuinely curious.

The 335d is a great car and, as you say, isn't going to be too far behind an M5 in this 'real world' performance metric that always gets mentioned.

My personal perception is that the key to making good long-distance cross country performance is the ability to get round other stuff efficiently and effortlessly. A 335d again isn't bad in this respect but the M5 can take a convoy in a much shorter space of time and distance. I know from driving a Golf 7R with similar power/weight to a F31 335xd that safe overtaking opportunities are far more plentiful in the M5 because you just don't need much road. I'm sure with your >700bhp/ton thing above you'll know what I mean and is in a similar vein to riding a bike - other bimbling drivers - and especially those who aim to thwart an overtaker - become a momentary hindrance and an irrelevance rather than a downright irritation.

Another aspect is comfort. A good analogy is that the guy keeping up with the M5 (or even pushing him along ) on an A/B road in the smaller less powerful car will probably be knackered after 100 miles whereas the M5 driver might be only a third of the way into his journey, listening to Radio 3 with his family in the back squabbling. I've had my mother in the car at twice the speed limit engrossed in conversation without batting an eyelid or noticing whats going on around her. There's just something about the way these big cars carry it off which is obscenely effortless and conducive to relentlessly swift progress.

The first time I travelled in an M5 was an F10 ring taxi with 3 of my mates and I was totally blown away by the notion of this massive fat saloon car that could cart a family around in total comfort, look just like a 530d in the client car park and then make a bunch of grown men giggle like little girls around the ring. Its still brilliant in my mind, 85k later.

Edited by theboss on Tuesday 17th April 19:45

[anonymous-user]

Ares said:

Any do you get to use that car properly? (or could you if it isn't road legal?)

It road legal but not driven on the road (too fast, too expensive, and too saddled by all the other traffic! (a sequential dog box and Carbon Carbon clutch do not make for happy bedfellows with heavy traffic, or in fact, any traffic!

Ares said:

I'm not interested in 'getting away from' a prick in a diesel doing three figures on an A/B road, or a motorway. I also never do three figures on a motorway, typical motorway cruise will be between 70 & 80 - if that's a metric for comparison, a 1.4l Audi A4 is quicker....but there is way way way more to driving than doing high speed on dull roads.

Eh? You said you could places quicker in your 500bhp car than a diesel, and now you say you are actually driving slower than that diesel? How does that work?

There is of course WAY more to driving than "driving diesels on dull roads" but that's not what we were talking about. We were talking about how in the real world even a middle range diesel car is effectively too quick to be fully wrung out. Making my point that an M5, whilst "fast" and "nice to drive" is not about getting anywhere any quicker than any body else.

Ares said:

By your logic, why have you got a 335d, when a 320d would be just as quick in your real world.

As mentioned, in the real world, the "quickest car" is the one driven by the most reckless driver. But i didn't buy a 335d to get places quickly (although ime, it's probably about the fastest car you can juuust about use, and nicely discrete so doesn't draw attention (no shouty exhaust etc). I biought it because it's a 6 cylinder and is much nicer to drive on a daily basis than the 4 cyl 320d. Now you could say ah, but an "M5" is even nicer to drive , and it is, but the cost to reward ratio has long been passed. (i've also never bought a new car in my life as i'd rather spend £20k on more toys than the 1st year depreciation... ;-)

[Ares]

Max_Torque said:

Ares said:

Any do you get to use that car properly? (or could you if it isn't road legal?)

It road legal but not driven on the road (too fast, too expensive, and too saddled by all the other traffic! (a sequential dog box and Carbon Carbon clutch do not make for happy bedfellows with heavy traffic, or in fact, any traffic!

My Caterham was a similar set up...albeit with only c330bhp/tonne. It was tough, but the reward was worth it

Max_Torque said:

Ares said:

I'm not interested in 'getting away from' a prick in a diesel doing three figures on an A/B road, or a motorway. I also never do three figures on a motorway, typical motorway cruise will be between 70 & 80 - if that's a metric for comparison, a 1.4l Audi A4 is quicker....but there is way way way more to driving than doing high speed on dull roads.

Eh? You said you could places quicker in your 500bhp car than a diesel, and now you say you are actually driving slower than that diesel? How does that work?

There is of course WAY more to driving than "driving diesels on dull roads" but that's not what we were talking about. We were talking about how in the real world even a middle range diesel car is effectively too quick to be fully wrung out. Making my point that an M5, whilst "fast" and "nice to drive" is not about getting anywhere any quicker than any body else.

Only c10% of my driving is done on the motorway, and only another c20% is done sitting at steady speeds on A-roads. For that 30%, a Fiesta could be quicker than me. ....it's the other 70% of the driving is where I'm quicker than in a 370bhp diesel, and having a LOT more fun

...and it IS what we are talking about. You didn't just say the M5 is no quicker on a motorway.

Max_Torque said:

Ares said:

By your logic, why have you got a 335d, when a 320d would be just as quick in your real world.

As mentioned, in the real world, the "quickest car" is the one driven by the most reckless driver. But i didn't buy a 335d to get places quickly (although ime, it's probably about the fastest car you can juuust about use, and nicely discrete so doesn't draw attention (no shouty exhaust etc). I biought it because it's a 6 cylinder and is much nicer to drive on a daily basis than the 4 cyl 320d. Now you could say ah, but an "M5" is even nicer to drive , and it is, but the cost to reward ratio has long been passed. (i've also never bought a new car in my life as i'd rather spend £20k on more toys than the 1st year depreciation... ;-)

So the M5 driver uses just the same argument, justifiably, as you use for getting a 335d rather than a 320d.

I sit from first hand experience. I pretty much had you car (6-series, but with a 370bhp diesel), I now have a near M5 performance saloon car. Real world, track world, dream world....I'm quicker now that in the BMW diesel, and I almost certainly take less risks.

[E65Ross]

Not an M5, not quite 600bhp either, but I've just come back from spending a bit of time in my dad's Ftype R which is 550bhp in a pretty heavy car.

Never ever grinned so much in any diesel I've ever been in. Granted, it sounds better than the M5. Anyone saying cars like that are pointless and too fast need to lighten up.

[popeyewhite]

Ares said:

(my explanation was in the part of the post you deleted )

How can you explain something you clearly don't understand?

[Burwood]

E65Ross said:

Not an M5, not quite 600bhp either, but I've just come back from spending a bit of time in my dad's Ftype R which is 550bhp in a pretty heavy car.

Never ever grinned so much in any diesel I've ever been in. Granted, it sounds better than the M5. Anyone saying cars like that are pointless and too fast need to lighten up.

[Ares]

popeyewhite said:

Ares said:

(my explanation was in the part of the post you deleted )

How can you explain something you clearly don't understand?

So enlighten me as to how this is not understanding and responding...

Ares said:

popeyewhite said:

Ares said:

popeyewhite said:

I wonder how many go for standard spec. Spending that much most people would probably not baulk at £15k more on options... .

To assume someone buying/leasing/financing an £87k car would carefree-ly add £15,000 is a little naive I'm afraid.

Not sure you understood what I wrote.

I understood, I'm not sure you understood my point though

To say someone spending that much would not baulk at £15k is naive.

[culpz]

E65Ross said:

Not an M5, not quite 600bhp either, but I've just come back from spending a bit of time in my dad's Ftype R which is 550bhp in a pretty heavy car.

Never ever grinned so much in any diesel I've ever been in. Granted, it sounds better than the M5. Anyone saying cars like that are pointless and too fast need to lighten up.

I agree. My dad had an E60 535d Touring, which was remapped and running somewhere in the region of 350 bhp and ALOT of torque. He got it as he was doing loads of miles for his job at the time and wanted something a bit more enjoyable and quicker than a 520d. He actually got offered one as a company car but politely turned it down and bought his own car himself.

It really was a fantastic car, FOR A DIESEL. I really emphasise that last part as, ultimately it was to save him money but also to have something a bit better to drive and enjoy on those long journeys. However, as soon as he stopped working, wasn't doing silly miles anymore and eventually retired, he got himself a 997 Carrera S. It's just a different end of the spectrum, entirely.

[mcerbm]

E65Ross said:

Max_Torque said:

E65Ross said:

Max_Torque said:

Shoot me, but i'd rather drive the Diesel 5er.........


(plenty enough shove,just as fast in the real world, and no need to stop every 200 miles for fuel, . It's not like either of those cars would be a much fun on a track day (unless someone else was collecting the £1k bill for new tyres and brakes every 10 laps).

What you've said is that you wouldn't prefer driving the diesel, but that you don't like the costs of the M5....I'm sure if your bills were paid for you'd take the M5.

Not really. I'd drive the diesel not because it's cheaper persay, but because i could spend the difference on a car that was actually FUN to drive, like say an Caterham. I could get a Derv 5'er, a Caterham and a trailer for the same price as that M5, and that's a far better deal for me!

(people will buy the M5 (but not that many) because they want "the best" or "the fastest" 5 series, but very,very few of those cars will every gets driven anywhere the limit of their capabilities (because they are to fast and modern road conditions and laws make them un-useable in-extremis).
Given that the 6cly diesel 5er does 155 mph and 0-60 in 5 odd seconds, there is no realistic on-road scenario where you could get anywhere any quicker in the M5 (unless you live in Scotland and are also willing to take absolutely massive risks in the way you drive, which most people with £100k to spend on a car aren't)

I appreciate what you're saying, but the whole point of an M5 is that you want a car that can do BOTH the driving quick as well as the mundane stuff. Sure, it's a compromise, but not everyone wants to drive a Caterham at the weekends and a diesel during the week. Some people want 1 car. Hence there's a market for these sorts of cars.

I think I am that test case! I have a high mileage E91 330d touring which I use over the winter and to tow a caterham which I use occasionally on the road but mostly on track and in competition. In the summer I use a F10 M5 which I bought as a 3 year old example and have had for the past 3 years.

I constantly keep changing my mind as to what the best setup is. The M5 is a great do it all car, it is quick, I have had it on track a few times myself and it works very well. It would be hard on its tyres and brakes if tracked regularly, but the odd track day it shakes off quite well. If I didnt own a caterham I would be happy to have it as my only car. I think the new F90 with its 4wd and also I presume a retractable towbar (the F10 was the first version to offer bmw factory fiited towbar) could be the perfect car.

[carl0s]

And No Dual Clutch Transmission!

[E65Ross]

carl0s said:

And No Dual Clutch Transmission!

Forgive me for asking, but why is this an issue? I've driven the current generation M6 with a DCT and a Jaguar Ftype R with the 8 speed auto. I think the 8 speed auto is every bit as good.

I'd be interested in hearing your views as to why this appears to be a problem for you, as to me it seemed to shift as fast, but was smoother than the DCT around town and slow speed. I can't really see a tangible benefit to the DCT, especially when you consider the type of car it's going in (4 door saloon).

Thanks in advance.

[culpz]

All of BMW's future M cars will ditch the DCT's for traditional automatic's. They announced it a while back now. It just shows you how far the automatic gearbox has come, Almost as fast shifting as a dual-clutch, but with the smoothness of a torque-converter. I've not driven the ZF8 but i've heard it's a cracker!

[theboss]

The ZF8 has been around for a while now (7-8 years?) and I’ve driven a few in that time - all very good but quite different to the DCT in my F10 M5 which I think suits the car very well. I am sure the implementation of the ZF in the F90 is better than those i’ve driven before, but does anyone know how or in what way this transmission has been progressively developed since it first appeared? Presumably we are talking faster changes.

[Ares]

theboss said:

The ZF8 has been around for a while now (7-8 years?) and I’ve driven a few in that time - all very good but quite different to the DCT in my F10 M5 which I think suits the car very well. I am sure the implementation of the ZF in the F90 is better than those i’ve driven before, but does anyone know how or in what way this transmission has been progressively developed since it first appeared? Presumably we are talking faster changes.

True....but saying you've driven a ZF8 is like judging every BMW because you've driven a few over the last 10yrs.

The tune is very very different. I've said it a few times, but the ZF in my current car is like a totally different gearbox to the ZF in my last 3 cars, and is far more like a DCT/PDK than and auto....so much so that very qualified drivers/journos got it confused for one at launch.

The latest ZF box, with the right state of tune, can match a DCT/PDK box to at least 99% and bring a lot more to the party on top.

[HighwayStar]

Ares said:

theboss said:

The ZF8 has been around for a while now (7-8 years?) and I’ve driven a few in that time - all very good but quite different to the DCT in my F10 M5 which I think suits the car very well. I am sure the implementation of the ZF in the F90 is better than those i’ve driven before, but does anyone know how or in what way this transmission has been progressively developed since it first appeared? Presumably we are talking faster changes.

True....but saying you've driven a ZF8 is like judging every BMW because you've driven a few over the last 10yrs.

The tune is very very different. I've said it a few times, but the ZF in my current car is like a totally different gearbox to the ZF in my last 3 cars, and is far more like a DCT/PDK than and auto....so much so that very qualified drivers/journos got it confused for one at launch.

The latest ZF box, with the right state of tune, can match a DCT/PDK box to at least 99% and bring a lot more to the party on top.

I think the true indicator regarding how good the ZF8 is that nothing has actually been said about the ZF8 or mourning the loss of the DCT in the reviews I've read or seen. How good or bad it is, is down to it's programming... BMW seem to be very good at getting it right.

[TobyTR]

theboss said:

What do you have that produces >600bhp and weighs 880kg? Genuinely curious.

The 335d is a great car and, as you say, isn't going to be too far behind an M5 in this 'real world' performance metric that always gets mentioned.

My personal perception is that the key to making good long-distance cross country performance is the ability to get round other stuff efficiently and effortlessly. A 335d again isn't bad in this respect but the M5 can take a convoy in a much shorter space of time and distance. I know from driving a Golf 7R with similar power/weight to a F31 335xd that safe overtaking opportunities are far more plentiful in the M5 because you just don't need much road. I'm sure with your >700bhp/ton thing above you'll know what I mean and is in a similar vein to riding a bike - other bimbling drivers - and especially those who aim to thwart an overtaker - become a momentary hindrance and an irrelevance rather than a downright irritation.

Another aspect is comfort. A good analogy is that the guy keeping up with the M5 (or even pushing him along ) on an A/B road in the smaller less powerful car will probably be knackered after 100 miles whereas the M5 driver might be only a third of the way into his journey, listening to Radio 3 with his family in the back squabbling. I've had my mother in the car at twice the speed limit engrossed in conversation without batting an eyelid or noticing whats going on around her. There's just something about the way these big cars carry it off which is obscenely effortless and conducive to relentlessly swift progress.

The first time I travelled in an M5 was an F10 ring taxi with 3 of my mates and I was totally blown away by the notion of this massive fat saloon car that could cart a family around in total comfort, look just like a 530d in the client car park and then make a bunch of grown men giggle like little girls around the ring. Its still brilliant in my mind, 85k later.

Edited by theboss on Tuesday 17th April 19:45

I like your style and way of thinking, hat-tip.

I totally understand the argument of 335d/530d/640d real-world performance - ie. is an M5 owner really going to use more than 50% of the car's performance potential on UK roads etc. However I'll still get one.

Diesels are just mundane, boring motors. Dreadful sound, peculiar torque and power delivery, out of puff by 4000rpm... I've never got out of any performance diesel (including stints in an Alpina XD3 and D4) grinning like I have from a petrol six-cylinder/V8/V12.

[Zod]

Why are M5 threads always infested by x35d drivers desperate to validate their choice of car?

I've owned an M5 (E60 for five years) and an X5 40d (more powerful 35d) and I can tell you that there's no comparison. The d cars are hugely, impressively competent, but the M cars are more than that; they are involving cars to drive.

[Limpet]

HighwayStar said:

I think the true indicator regarding how good the ZF8 is that nothing has actually been said about the ZF8 or mourning the loss of the DCT in the reviews I've read or seen. How good or bad it is, is down to it's programming... BMW seem to be very good at getting it right.

Yes, the software is everything. I've had this 'box in a 320d and now in an M140i, and it has been great in both, but set up very differently. In the 320d it was just smooth. In the M140i, in Sport mode, they've programmed a slight "thump" into full throttle upshifts, presumably to replicate a DCT. Whatever you do with it though, it doesn't feel anything like a TC box once rolling, as the converter is pretty much always locked up. But you do get that lovely creamy smooth take up of drive, and predictable, consistent low speed creep that only comes from a "slushbox".

I'm sure a DCT can shave some milliseconds off a shift, but the ZF8 is plenty quick enough, and has all the upsides of a TC box when you're stuck in traffic or bimbling around town. It's also pretty efficient if my fuel returns are any guide.

BMW expanding the use of this transmission into the M-cars doesn't concern me at all. It's brilliant.