RE: Polestar 5 prototype charges in 10 minutes
Discussion
stavers said:
Weight vs aero depends on where you are driving. Over the WLTP weight is significantly more of an energy drain than aero - the aero only dominates once you get above 60mph or so. And at lower speed the amount of regen braking is reduced as well so it's a double whammy and not quite as clear cut as you said for those two parts.
It also depends on how modern the car is, it's body type, it's powertrain: ICE vs hybrid vs EV, and its ability to recover kinetic energy.The balance between them has been shifting quite a bit over time, and whilst there are some pure ICEs where weight is more dominant, you can just as easily find examples where drag is more dominant.
The main point being that waste heat is, by far, the biggest consumer of energy in an ICE car.
An electric motor fed from a battery by and large eliminates that, regen is the icing on the cake.
With present day technology, decarbonisation is intrinsically linked to how much waste heat you can eliminate.
It's virtually impossible to break the relationship between waste heat and carbon footprint.
It would take the miracle of vast amounts of cheap renewable electricity and a huge front-end hit on carbon footprint and financial cost to build an infrastructure where a high-waste-heat low-carbon mainstream solution exists.
For anyone obsessed with weight, they should ponder why this car, that weighs about 2 tons with driver and passenger on board achieves nearly 300 mpg equivalent, pretty much regardless of what speed you drive it at...
Snaaakeey said:
I'm thinking someone should get Batteryheads started.
Clear the air abit around here.
Cars a car - EVs offer performance levels that are pretty impressive and will continue to develop - personally I think the clearing of the air needs to be the constant de-railing of threads because "y".Clear the air abit around here.
People have a choice of not engaging with posts - exercise yours.
J4CKO said:
119 said:
J4CKO said:
119 said:
So more importantly, can I get a fivers worth of electric in my jerry can in case I run out?
Key is to avoid running out really, maybe dont become an airline pilot if that regularly happens ?Ffs.
Meanwhile in the real world, new 7kwh chargers are being installed every day around the UK to meet the requirement for charging infrastructure. Try to find even a 50kwh public charger in North or Mid-Wales let alone a higher speed. I've visted several towns recently proudly showing off a bank of newly installed 7wkh chargers which are next to useless for anyone actually visiting who needs an on-the-go top-up. It's great that these fast-charge development are coming but just like 400+ mile ranges, these are the future of EVs not the present of affordable EVs. A 200 mile round trip into Wales with our ID3 - range 225 miles - real world winter range 165 miles - was a trip-planning nightmare, always looking for a route via one of the few fast-chargers. We can all recognise the developments that make EVs a universally acceptable choice but for every super-fast charger being installed in a state-of-the-art charging station in essex or Oxford there are 20 towns getting a pair of 7kwh chargers that "tick the box" for the local council's government grant spend.
It may be the case that ultra rapid chargers are actually too fast for motorway services. Whenever I stop, my car is ready before me.
Anyone actually going into the services is going to spend a minimum of 30 minutes I imagine?
Having 20 x 125kW chargers in front of the services supplemented by a smaller number of 350kW chargers at the traditional fuel stop might be a better balance.
Anyone actually going into the services is going to spend a minimum of 30 minutes I imagine?
Having 20 x 125kW chargers in front of the services supplemented by a smaller number of 350kW chargers at the traditional fuel stop might be a better balance.
I mean did anyone thought it cannot be done? Take a cable thick enough with pure enough conductor, cool the battery so it doesn't melt from the heat and sure you can shove all those angry electric pixies at that rate.
The real question is "is it feasible on an average car using an average charging station".
The real question is "is it feasible on an average car using an average charging station".
Macboy said:
Meanwhile in the real world, new 7kwh chargers are being installed every day around the UK to meet the requirement for charging infrastructure. Try to find even a 50kwh public charger in North or Mid-Wales let alone a higher speed. I've visted several towns recently proudly showing off a bank of newly installed 7wkh chargers which are next to useless for anyone actually visiting who needs an on-the-go top-up. It's great that these fast-charge development are coming but just like 400+ mile ranges, these are the future of EVs not the present of affordable EVs. A 200 mile round trip into Wales with our ID3 - range 225 miles - real world winter range 165 miles - was a trip-planning nightmare, always looking for a route via one of the few fast-chargers. We can all recognise the developments that make EVs a universally acceptable choice but for every super-fast charger being installed in a state-of-the-art charging station in essex or Oxford there are 20 towns getting a pair of 7kwh chargers that "tick the box" for the local council's government grant spend.
Town centres are generally destinations, not waypoints. So, most people visiting a town centre are going to be spending more time there than they would at, say, a motorway service station. This means it is not critical to have ultra fast chargers in town centres, because a visitor's car can charge for longer whilst the owner shops/goes to the dentist/watches a movie/whatever they've gone to the town for. Also, the visitor is highly unlikey to be arriving with 0% charge and needing to leave again with a fully charged 90kwh battery. The most likely scenario is that they'll arrive wanting to obtain sufficient charge plus contingency to get home afterwards, which is not likely to be any more than at most 50 miles away. So, again, ultra fast charging just isn't a "must have". It is most likely that a 7kw charger will deliver this easily.
EV requires a change of mindset regarding re-fueling. You move to a "little and often" model, rather than the all-at-once model we are used to with petrol and diesel.
So councils are pretty much doing the right thing.
Sounds like more facilities are required in North Wales though (I don't frequent the area), and I'm sure they'll come in time.
Edited by CivicDuties on Tuesday 30th April 10:31
GT9 said:
Gary C said:
Cupid-stunt said:
ChocolateFrog said:
Cupid-stunt said:
Alpitronic are releasing 500kW chargers and then there are truck chargers that are meant to be 1MW.
They WILL be able to have a higher charge rate - the problem is network capacity .... and that is an issue that govt needs to oversee.
It's knowing that when caught short, the time needed to recharge / fuel up is on par with ICE - surely that is a good thing?
Good looking car to boot....
If capacity is such an issue why does Octopus give me atleast 8hrs a day of almost free electric? They WILL be able to have a higher charge rate - the problem is network capacity .... and that is an issue that govt needs to oversee.
It's knowing that when caught short, the time needed to recharge / fuel up is on par with ICE - surely that is a good thing?
Good looking car to boot....
Multiply that many many fold, add in the unknown of how much it will be utilised/ add in the cost to upgrade.
That's if there is a suitable space that people will use.
Lets face it, probably 95% of cars in a total EV scenario would be charged overnight.
Now, throw in electric central heating and hot water and things get more interesting.
The fact that EVs can average 3 miles per kWh is the crucial element in all of this.
However, the rate of increase of electric cars needs to be factored against the planned offshore (and onshore) wind capacity increases.
On current forecasts, EVs will never make up more than about 10-15% of overall demand.
As you say, heat pumps and commercial/industrial electrification are likely to be just as demanding, even more so.
That means we could keep the same generation level, but we would need for charging solutions to manage the charging rate or durations (ie the smart charging solution)
But add heating to that mix and it spoils that argument. Especially hot water. If we use a none storage instant hot water solution, it demands high power and with a large number of people all having a shower at ~6am that could lead to a significant power spike every day which is much more difficult to cope with.
barrycoupe said:
When are positions going to realise that EV’s are not the answer. Polestar have created something the charging network will never ever be able to cope. Not without having thousands and thousands of wind power generators ruining our environment. EV ‘s are too heavy, and this is a blind alley we are being sent down. ICE’s with sustainable fuel has to be a better alternative. Batteries, never.
You do know that compression ignition combustion will produce NOx ? it is an unavoidable consequence of burning a fuel under compression.NOx is one of the primary pollutants that the legislators want to control.
ChocolateFrog said:
Great but totally irrelevant for me as I'd maybe use it once every 3 years or so.
Can we have 10 mile per kWh cars please? I'd be impressed then.
You could probably have that now, but 2 seats & 50 mile range. Made from aluminium & carbon fibre with a cost north of £30k.Can we have 10 mile per kWh cars please? I'd be impressed then.
Interested?
Glosphil said:
You could probably have that now, but 2 seats & 50 mile range. Made from aluminium & carbon fibre with a cost north of £30k.
Interested?
This car could possibly do it.Interested?
But only if you replaced the hydrogen tank, fuel cell and capacitor with a tiny 5 kWh battery pack...
The fuel cell version gets 3.3 miles/kWh on hydrogen.
https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/transport/exclusiv...
ATG said:
Mushroom12 said:
sidesauce said:
That's one in the eye for the argument that EVs take too long to charge. Let's see what they'll complain about next...
Who is 'they'? Did you ever consider that some people want ICE cars and that there's nothing wrong with that? Not everything has to be tribalism based on purchasing decisionsSean 2000 said:
How is that electricity getting produced again? Oh yes, mostly burning fossil fuels isn't it
Er, no. Only about 1/3 is fossil fuelled.
The UK grid's average carbon intensity is currently 162 g/kWh.
You know when people say their EV gets 3 miles (or 5 km) per kWh, well that means the carbon footprint is 32 g/km for the electricity to charge it.
A petrol ICE car running at 40 mpg is getting 1 mile per kW, and putting out 170 g/km.
The carbon footprint to refine that petrol adds at least another 30-40 g/km, about the same as the EV's entire electricity consumption.
So right now it's a straight comparison between the petrol car's 170 g/km coming out of the exhaust vs the EV's battery production.
Which works out at about 50 g/km today, but much less down the track.
Both the battery footprint and the electricity footprint are rapidly shrinking.
Playing the numbers game doesn't work now, in 20 years, it's game over.
barrycoupe said:
When are positions going to realise that EV’s are not the answer. Polestar have created something the charging network will never ever be able to cope. Not without having thousands and thousands of wind power generators ruining our environment. EV ‘s are too heavy, and this is a blind alley we are being sent down. ICE’s with sustainable fuel has to be a better alternative. Batteries, never.
You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about!jenkosrugby said:
Gary C said:
If I have to have an EV, I want one with a torque curve and gears !
Pointless maybe
but it would be fun.
If you have not driven an EV.....The instant torque is (I can assure you)...fun :-)Pointless maybe
but it would be fun.
GT9 said:
I'm going out on a limb here, but I'm guessing some of the posters on this thread aren't early adopter material.
The difference between early adopter and late adopter is probs 20 years.
If you are in the late adopter group, take a chill pill, sit back and watch it all unfold.
Maybe then, if it's still not to your liking, get on your soapbox.
Yeh fair point but the way its being done is that nearly all new car buyers are being forced into becoming an early adopter, legislation won't permit that 20 year delay to let others take the risk.The difference between early adopter and late adopter is probs 20 years.
If you are in the late adopter group, take a chill pill, sit back and watch it all unfold.
Maybe then, if it's still not to your liking, get on your soapbox.
Soapbox is pointless, it'll be too late at that point. I don't see a bright future with this, more like Black Mirror.
GT9 said:
Yeah, I was trying to un-conflate the repair/recycling conflation they had made.
Is there much difference, if we boil it down - if i wanted to 'recycle' my damaged battery pack but it costs more than the value of the vehicle then its not going to be worth it.Repair feasibility should, IMHO, be massively prioritized over recycling given the energy intensivity.
If anyone wants to read about the company who helped Polestar achieve this, here they are: https://www.store-dot.com/
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