RE: Hybrids are the 'next diesel': Tell Me I'm Wrong
Discussion
Strider said:
The other issue, not mentioned, is the terrible environmental impact of lithium batteries. Open cast mining causes devastation...
There is no open-cast mining involved in the extraction of lithium from the earth. All current commercial reserves are in the form lithium salts in solution, usually recovered via huge evaporation ponds. While there is an abundance of lithium compounds in certain types of rock, as well as millions of tonnes of the stuff dissolved in the sea, the concentrations are so low that they are nowhere near economically viable for recovery at this time.ukaskew said:
There are far better tests out there for things like emissions and economy than the current system used, a bunch of clever guys down the corridor from me are doing just that.
Employ one of these systems and make the test cover a much broader range of circumstances (maybe with an average score at the end of it) and it would be significantly more difficult to 'game' the system.
I believe there are plans to introduce just such a test to replace both the NEDC and the US system. Employ one of these systems and make the test cover a much broader range of circumstances (maybe with an average score at the end of it) and it would be significantly more difficult to 'game' the system.
A lot of what Dan says is true.Useless politicians are in the driving seat. Also there is a clear contradiction between a high performance car with an electric engine and a clean green car. However we are at the forefront of a technology breakthrough. Battery technology will evolve and its only experiments like this that will continue to drive the frontiers. I don't get the PHEV. Go 20 miles and its dead and a windless 2 ltr engine does sub 30mpg hauling around 2 tonnes of over produced mass. So in truth who needs a 4x4 for the city cos thats what it is. BMW almost got the right idea with the i3. An electric car with a purpose generator , not a driving engine, in a car that is light and nimble and gets you out of trouble when you go too far. I am sure we will see an evolution of that. The scary thing is all this electricity still produces global warming and we struggle with the demand without 30 million cars gobbling it up and being held to ransom by utterly inefficient utility providers, but oil will run out so if we don't do something now we are all stuffed.The car is such an important economic driver to the world economy it has to be left to evolve. Really all this green is just a wrapper for more progress and evolution and more tax revenue. It cures one problem and creates another. This is just the beginning of a revolution in transport , with the likes of the Panermara being nothing more than a show case for what can be achieved..but look in any motor museum and there were always extreme cars that challenged boundaries.Much like Formula 1. Spins offs and advancement will occur to everyday cars.
Interestingly, I'm just planning how to motivate adults in education. It might not seem that relevant to this thread initially, but bear with me.
Several authors comment that if you set exams, people change their behaviour to pass exams, not just to learn what you want them to in the curriculum. Unless you align what you want to teach and exams to reflect the same thing, men and women will study to pass the test, not learn to do anything else better at all. What you want to teach then becomes irrelevant.
(Biggs, J. & Tang, C. (2011). Teaching for quality learning at university (4th ed.). Buckingham: Open University Press... if anyone's interested)
People have been making analogies between individual and group behaviour reflecting each other ever since Plato's Republic. Corporations are groups of people who will "study only to pass the test". They won't change behaviour because someone says it's the right thing to do.
I don't blame my trainees for studying to pass the tests, I change the tests to reflect what I want them to learn. In the same way, criticising Porsche is futile- what's needed is more discerning, carefully drafted legislation and support for companies trying to do what we want them to do. Jumping up and down and calling companies names isn't going to change behaviour any more than... well, an internet post from a windbag like me.
Several authors comment that if you set exams, people change their behaviour to pass exams, not just to learn what you want them to in the curriculum. Unless you align what you want to teach and exams to reflect the same thing, men and women will study to pass the test, not learn to do anything else better at all. What you want to teach then becomes irrelevant.
(Biggs, J. & Tang, C. (2011). Teaching for quality learning at university (4th ed.). Buckingham: Open University Press... if anyone's interested)
People have been making analogies between individual and group behaviour reflecting each other ever since Plato's Republic. Corporations are groups of people who will "study only to pass the test". They won't change behaviour because someone says it's the right thing to do.
I don't blame my trainees for studying to pass the tests, I change the tests to reflect what I want them to learn. In the same way, criticising Porsche is futile- what's needed is more discerning, carefully drafted legislation and support for companies trying to do what we want them to do. Jumping up and down and calling companies names isn't going to change behaviour any more than... well, an internet post from a windbag like me.
kambites said:
Oddball RS said:
On a very basic level, if a Hybrid isn't even diesel I tend not to take it as a serious effort, and using hundreds of kilos of rare earths and metals in each one never was really going to 'save' anything was it?
What on earth do you think they use hundreds of kilos of rare earth metals for in a hybrid? And its rare earths AND metals.
Oddball RS said:
I must be missing something here, what does a hybrid have that a normal car doesn't? then check out the amount of said elements to make those items?
I assume you refer to the batteries but there's certainly not "hundreds of kg" of anything rare in Lithium Ion cells. I don't actually know, but I suspect there's considerably less than a kilogram of what's conventionally considered "rare earth" materials in a typical EV/Hybrids battery pack. Yes there's lots of metal, but not half as much as there is in the chassis of any car!
Edited by kambites on Monday 20th March 11:30
4kg of Lithium in a small EV such as a leaf, but it has a factor of x750 so those four Kilos come at a cost of 3000Kg of salt brine to accumulate. And over a year of processing time, (Now that is a large brine pool somewhere on this earth for over a year to produce one small car isn't it) yes it is recyclable but it takes 20 tonnes of spent power cells to produce one tonne in return and is fairly energy intensive as is their production in the first place, then you have Manganese, Cobalt, Copper, Ali and that's before you touch on the motors and current control etc etc. As I said its not really the permanent answer to looking after the environment is it.
sasha320 said:
robemcdonald said:
So Dan is now basically trolling pistonheads?
I'm unclear on the point of the article, worse case hybrids (of all varieties), have identical fuel economy, relocate some energy production and have lower particulate emissions.Best case they're more fuel efficient (on vehicle and off site electricity production), lower emissions and have better fuel economy.
Not sure what the article is actually having a pop at?
kambites said:
Oddball RS said:
I must be missing something here, what does a hybrid have that a normal car doesn't? then check out the amount of said elements to make those items?
I assume you refer to the batteries but there's certainly not "hundreds of kg" of anything rare in Lithium Ion cells. I don't actually know, but I suspect there's considerably less than a kilogram of what's conventionally considered "rare earth" materials in a typical EV/Hybrids battery pack. Yes there's lots of metal, but not half as much as there is in the chassis of any car!
Edited by kambites on Monday 20th March 11:30
There's huge amounts of Lithium available, easily enough to provide batteries for every car in the world - it is not in any way, shape or form "rare". Obviously, as with oil, some sources are easier to access than others so they're the ones being tapped at the moment but there's certainly not a "shortage".
It takes a significant amount of energy to process it, but that's a rather different issue.
If anything, I'd say rare materials are more of a problem for ICE powered cars than EVs. Obviously hybrids are the worst of both worlds (which is why they aren't a complete solution in themselves). There's certainly not enough accessible platinum to equip every car in the world with a catalytic convertor plus at the moment ICE powered cars are reliant on permanent magnet motors to start them and generate their electricity.
It takes a significant amount of energy to process it, but that's a rather different issue.
If anything, I'd say rare materials are more of a problem for ICE powered cars than EVs. Obviously hybrids are the worst of both worlds (which is why they aren't a complete solution in themselves). There's certainly not enough accessible platinum to equip every car in the world with a catalytic convertor plus at the moment ICE powered cars are reliant on permanent magnet motors to start them and generate their electricity.
Edited by kambites on Monday 20th March 11:54
I agree with this article, for the most part.
Performance wise, they do work well and we are clearly going to see more of them with the imminent demise of diesel.
Environmentally wise, i'm not entirely convinced. It's clearly just a stop-gap until full electric power is up to scratch. so, it's only really a temporary measure.
Ownership is also another thing. Any car that is powered partly or entirely by battery power scares me. Diesels can be expensive enough alone, never mind battery packs and etc.
Performance wise, they do work well and we are clearly going to see more of them with the imminent demise of diesel.
Environmentally wise, i'm not entirely convinced. It's clearly just a stop-gap until full electric power is up to scratch. so, it's only really a temporary measure.
Ownership is also another thing. Any car that is powered partly or entirely by battery power scares me. Diesels can be expensive enough alone, never mind battery packs and etc.
I think you are bang on the money here. The fact is that liquid hydrocarbon fuels are perfect for transportation. If we want to save carbon emissions we should be concentrating on things that don't move, like buildings and power stations.
If the government / industry really wanted to cut emissions, it would be far better to set a maximum weight for a carbon powered car, (say 1000 kgs) and a maximum power output (say 250bhp) for all private vehicles. I doubt there are many here that wouldn't enjoy the kind of car that would fit these limits, at the same time we save loads of energy.
If the government / industry really wanted to cut emissions, it would be far better to set a maximum weight for a carbon powered car, (say 1000 kgs) and a maximum power output (say 250bhp) for all private vehicles. I doubt there are many here that wouldn't enjoy the kind of car that would fit these limits, at the same time we save loads of energy.
suffolk009 said:
robemcdonald said:
suffolk009 said:
I've no problem with the idea of having hybrid as a means of reducing fossil fuel consumption. All the kinetic energy in slowing an IC car is simply wasted. That doesn't make sense.
I think there is a seperate problem that sees hybrids and electric cars as an environmental solution. I think it was Gordon Murray who wrote an essay about the whole life-cycle polution of a Prius being greater than an all petrol Fiat Panda. IIRC it was by a considerable margin.
As mentioned a few posts above there is (apparently) as much polution produced by the 15 biggest ships as all the cars in the world. The real environmental problem in the world is that we all buy far too much stuff. Cars are no different, and the new ones with the new tech inside are marketed to the rich, early adopters, as something to clear their conscience. Of course, it's just marketing smoke and mirrors. I'd be interested to know the lifecycle polution of cars in Cuba, big well built, American gas guzzlers that had to be kept running - there was no alternative.
I have a friend who is one of those early adopter, one-percenters - she drives a Tesla Model S. I call it her Coal Powered car. She does not find it amusing.
That's probably because only around 22% of UK power is generated from coal, still let's not let facts get in the way of a nice joke eh?I think there is a seperate problem that sees hybrids and electric cars as an environmental solution. I think it was Gordon Murray who wrote an essay about the whole life-cycle polution of a Prius being greater than an all petrol Fiat Panda. IIRC it was by a considerable margin.
As mentioned a few posts above there is (apparently) as much polution produced by the 15 biggest ships as all the cars in the world. The real environmental problem in the world is that we all buy far too much stuff. Cars are no different, and the new ones with the new tech inside are marketed to the rich, early adopters, as something to clear their conscience. Of course, it's just marketing smoke and mirrors. I'd be interested to know the lifecycle polution of cars in Cuba, big well built, American gas guzzlers that had to be kept running - there was no alternative.
I have a friend who is one of those early adopter, one-percenters - she drives a Tesla Model S. I call it her Coal Powered car. She does not find it amusing.
But it does, I think, show up the clean-energy-car myth for what it is.
I suspect that an existing electric supply grid would be more efficient than all of that, even if you are shifting the end use to a power station of any kind, not to mention that the generating efficiency of a power station is better than the efficiency of an ICE
How many electric cars could be charged from the electricity use of a single petrol station in one day?
Swoxy said:
steve1386 said:
I'm sorry, but a Prius will never achieve the same real word economy as a diesel, nor will any hybrid. If the battery is fully charged, then they are only useful in short, stop-start city traffic.
Take one on a motorway for a long journey and you'll be lucky to see 40mpg.
On top of that you have to tell someone you drive a Prius!
People's "real world" can be different and Toyota / Lexus currently sell nine hybrids in the UK in addition to the Prius.Take one on a motorway for a long journey and you'll be lucky to see 40mpg.
On top of that you have to tell someone you drive a Prius!
king ages and I was sweating my bks off cos the aircon was off, but there you go...Hybridisation is a way to allow regenerative braking and to overcome the inherent deficiencies of ICE engines. Adding plug-in capacity for extended electric operation has benefits for emissions in short journey use. I think it is conceivable that to some extent the way that we test cars is distorting the engineering of plug-in hybrids - I guess the question would be how large a battery pack would be optimal in real use and how far that is from what is optimal for test optimisation. And I do think the current test rules probably allow PHEVs to post disproportionately better figures than they achieve in use compared to pure ICE vehicles, but cars are used in lots of different ways. Someone using a PHEV for a short urban commute probably will realise the benefits in a way that someone using it for long high speed journeys won't. There is an inherent problem there in trying to condense fitness for purpose into a single g/km number.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Incidentally, and no idea how true this is, but apparently 15 of the worlds largest cargo ships are supposed to emit as much at all the worlds cars combined.
It's something I read and doubtless somewhere there's a counter article but if it's even half true it does show a little of the futility of anything we can do as motorists.
I think that's very misleading. The power to weight ration of a cargo vessel is about 1bhp/ton, so the emissions per ton are on par with electric bicycle. The fact that the worlds biggest 15 ships are carrying about 7.5 MT or cargo is important here. It's something I read and doubtless somewhere there's a counter article but if it's even half true it does show a little of the futility of anything we can do as motorists.
VW Porsche is a rudderless organization; what they've been building since the takeover is feeble brand milking and parts-bin, focus group, beige consensus boardroom profit-and-loss mediocrity, not Porsches, not 911s.
If Porsche management had any intelligence or sense of purpose, they'd build an electric 911 to bring 911 enthusiasts into 2010 (let alone 2017) and an electric Panamera/Cayenne/Macan to trounce Tesla. But they don't have the vision or the temerity; they're afraid of the unknown, and they're slowing burying themselves with the fossil fool era.
As for hybrids, the Prius used to be great. For 2005, it was brilliant technology and a solid 40 mpg. Hybrid made sense until EVs became realistic. GM was evening heading in the right direction: an onboard static engine generator to recharge the batteries for an all electric drivetrain. The Prius ICE/EV was innovative, but it only ever participated as an interim transitional technology. Today, it's obsolescent with advent of the 200+ mile range EVs for about the same price (Tesla Model 3, Chevrolet Bolt.)
So I agree a hybrid Panamera and Cayenne are a laughably overweight anachronism. So is Porsche. Again, if their product management had vision, they'd build an all electric version of their mass market products. They'd probably need to build a "hybrid" (on-board generator for electric-only power train) but the idea of a battery less than about 60 kWh is counterproductive (all the weight and expensive of electric without the power, torque, range or zero vehicle emissions.) There's also the problem the Panamera is still pig ugly and the Cayenne isn't as nice as the Tesla Model X (which is quicker than a 911 turbo ...)
I'll stick with a 993 for old school driving and a 997 for modern driving, till someone has the good sense to take very light batteries and stuff them behind the rear axle of an all electric 911 (with manual hydraulic steering rack, please.)
If Porsche management had any intelligence or sense of purpose, they'd build an electric 911 to bring 911 enthusiasts into 2010 (let alone 2017) and an electric Panamera/Cayenne/Macan to trounce Tesla. But they don't have the vision or the temerity; they're afraid of the unknown, and they're slowing burying themselves with the fossil fool era.
As for hybrids, the Prius used to be great. For 2005, it was brilliant technology and a solid 40 mpg. Hybrid made sense until EVs became realistic. GM was evening heading in the right direction: an onboard static engine generator to recharge the batteries for an all electric drivetrain. The Prius ICE/EV was innovative, but it only ever participated as an interim transitional technology. Today, it's obsolescent with advent of the 200+ mile range EVs for about the same price (Tesla Model 3, Chevrolet Bolt.)
So I agree a hybrid Panamera and Cayenne are a laughably overweight anachronism. So is Porsche. Again, if their product management had vision, they'd build an all electric version of their mass market products. They'd probably need to build a "hybrid" (on-board generator for electric-only power train) but the idea of a battery less than about 60 kWh is counterproductive (all the weight and expensive of electric without the power, torque, range or zero vehicle emissions.) There's also the problem the Panamera is still pig ugly and the Cayenne isn't as nice as the Tesla Model X (which is quicker than a 911 turbo ...)
I'll stick with a 993 for old school driving and a 997 for modern driving, till someone has the good sense to take very light batteries and stuff them behind the rear axle of an all electric 911 (with manual hydraulic steering rack, please.)
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff