RE: Jaguar's 400hp electric SUV unveiled
Discussion
Limpet said:
rxe said:
Sort of, but it’s aimed at the American market, and is far too big. The interior is also fecking hideous, it’s as though someone who has watched too much Space 1999 as a kid was given the chance to design “the car of the future”.
I quite like the Model S interior. 
kambites said:
Limpet said:
And as Tesla has open sourced all their IP, I can't see where their future lies.
Probably selling batteries to the established US car makers. I personally don't see them surviving as a stand-alone car manufacturer, I think they'll either get bought out for their model lineup by the slowest US car maker to jump on the EV bandwagon, or shut down their car operations and exist purely as a battery supplier.
rxe said:
This Jag looks like a car (you could pass it on the street and not notice), and the interior looks like a car (until you set off, you won’t realise what it is). I like that.
And this is the huge question that this and the next cars from Merc and Audi will answer. Does the EV consumer market also like EVs that don’t shout about being EVs? About a decade or so ago a big survey of Prius owners in the US found that the number one reason for the purchase was what the Prius said about the driver.
This is an article based around that data and it’s a real eye opener into the core element of car ownership that gets denied all day, throughout the day on PH but we all know is there: https://mobile.nytimes.com/2007/07/04/business/04h...
It would be fair to say that the Tesla brand has achieved the same. It would in fact be pretty much impossible to argue that human nature had magically just changed its entire way of behaving after millions of years of evolution the week before the first Tesla cars went on sale.
Now, you like this Jag partly because it’s subtle about its message to the point that it’s fair to say it doesn’t have a message, it’s just a car and it just happens to be compliant with existing and planned urban legislation and taxation around the globe. I like this car very much because to me it’s an EV that doesn’t send out a message.
But, there is actually a chance that it could be a sales flop if it transpires that the bulk of consumers wanting an EV are wanting it as a product to broadcast something about them. Has the market matured sufficiently that there are enough people who just want an EV for the practicality and engineering benefits rather than to project a desired message?
To me this is the real strength of Tesla. If someone needs to broadcast a message then this is the best brand by far to do that with and I’m not sure any incumbent manufacturer has the ability to compete against that.
Phunk said:
There's a couple of chargers in Skegness plus Rapid chargers between London and Skegness. Plus - as you mention, it's an unusual trip.
The advantage of electric is that you never have to visit a petrol station which takes on average 10-20 minutes a week, instead your car has a full 'tank' every morning. Once you balance it out, you'll soon realise that you'll spend less time 'fueling' your car compared to a ICE.
Unless you can't charge at home - then you're buggered
But if those two chargers are in use, because everyone has bought an iPace....The advantage of electric is that you never have to visit a petrol station which takes on average 10-20 minutes a week, instead your car has a full 'tank' every morning. Once you balance it out, you'll soon realise that you'll spend less time 'fueling' your car compared to a ICE.
Unless you can't charge at home - then you're buggered
We don't use the car at home that often, so unless we are doing long trips, often only fill up every 3-4 weeks. That said, actually the above journey is not that unusual, as wife visits family just outside York every couple of months. Normally aim to do the journey non stop (otherwise a fortune gets spent by the kids in the services..). Or we visit friends that are 130 miles away. Yes I could go off and find a charger that I could leave the car at for an hour to charge, but do I really want to? Charging overnight there wouldn't currently be possible other than 13amp, so not practical.
However, for most of the time it could work for us, and we can easily charge overnight.It's just the longer trips that whilst manageable, are currently going to be a hassle.
I could keep the old diesel beast for long journeys, and have the iPace for local, but its the long journeys I want the nice new car for.
l354uge said:
An interesting concept would to let I pace drivers rent a ice (probably hybrid) jlr product a certain amount of times in a year.
Kills off the range anxiety issues, gets more people in the cars, more presence on the roads..
If they did this, at a cheap enough rate, with dropoff and collection, so easy that it became a no brainer, that could be the game changerKills off the range anxiety issues, gets more people in the cars, more presence on the roads..
Edited by l354uge on Thursday 1st March 21:54
So with these cars now hitting the road, is it the start of the end for Tesla and its legal pyramid scheme?
Joking aside, Tesla aren't delivering on promises, now established rivals, that already know how to build a car(fit and finish) are rolling out electric only options.. it seems they've an even larger uphill struggle?
Joking aside, Tesla aren't delivering on promises, now established rivals, that already know how to build a car(fit and finish) are rolling out electric only options.. it seems they've an even larger uphill struggle?
Bryans69 said:
Phunk said:
There's a couple of chargers in Skegness plus Rapid chargers between London and Skegness. Plus - as you mention, it's an unusual trip.
The advantage of electric is that you never have to visit a petrol station which takes on average 10-20 minutes a week, instead your car has a full 'tank' every morning. Once you balance it out, you'll soon realise that you'll spend less time 'fueling' your car compared to a ICE.
Unless you can't charge at home - then you're buggered
But if those two chargers are in use, because everyone has bought an iPace....The advantage of electric is that you never have to visit a petrol station which takes on average 10-20 minutes a week, instead your car has a full 'tank' every morning. Once you balance it out, you'll soon realise that you'll spend less time 'fueling' your car compared to a ICE.
Unless you can't charge at home - then you're buggered
We don't use the car at home that often, so unless we are doing long trips, often only fill up every 3-4 weeks. That said, actually the above journey is not that unusual, as wife visits family just outside York every couple of months. Normally aim to do the journey non stop (otherwise a fortune gets spent by the kids in the services..). Or we visit friends that are 130 miles away. Yes I could go off and find a charger that I could leave the car at for an hour to charge, but do I really want to? Charging overnight there wouldn't currently be possible other than 13amp, so not practical.
However, for most of the time it could work for us, and we can easily charge overnight.It's just the longer trips that whilst manageable, are currently going to be a hassle.
I could keep the old diesel beast for long journeys, and have the iPace for local, but its the long journeys I want the nice new car for.
All taxation and legislation is structured around hybrids as normal consumers can switch to these without making any adjustment to their life at all. They solve all know problems. They have small batteries so are not exposed to the risks and issues there, they still burn a lot of fuel so those juicy tax receipts will keep rolling in, they are nice and complex so they’ll keep having to go back to dealers and people who drive 1,000 miles a day for 22 hours and then sleep for two hours at the top of a tower can drive one. The pure EV is going to remain a product for the wealthy who can fit it into their lifestyle without any relevant hurdles and those who need to project a message to society for many years to come yet.
What the Jag shows is that 2018 is the year that the mainstream manufacturers see sufficient commercial advantage and consumer demand to deliver a product which is exciting as now the real competition and innovation begins as we see the EV segment starting to grow in earnest.
Bibbs said:
Can anyone Gaydon tell me where Jaguar are based? Gaydon.
I don't think the article mentioned it. Gaydon.
(I've noticed Gaydon this a lot lately in PH articles. It's s
t, stop it Gaydon)
Ingolstadt
Isn’t the repeated mention of a place in England just a marketing thing to enforce a particular image into the consumer’s head?I don't think the article mentioned it. Gaydon.
(I've noticed Gaydon this a lot lately in PH articles. It's s
t, stop it Gaydon)Ingolstadt
I suspect it’s there not just to detract from the fact that this car will be being build by Jonny Foreigner in Bongo Bongoland but it probably reveals that there have been internal talks about shifting a lot of JLR production to cheaper land and labour destinations? It would hardly be the first time that sort of thing happened. Don’t Jaguar or Land Rover have relatively recent form in designing engine bays that couldn’t take certain engines etc?
If they say Gaydon twenty times in every press release then they build up the public defense of ‘But Gaydon!!!’ should TATA moot more publicly a desire to add more overseas production?
DonkeyApple said:
Now, you like this Jag partly because it’s subtle about its message to the point that it’s fair to say it doesn’t have a message, it’s just a car and it just happens to be compliant with existing and planned urban legislation and taxation around the globe. I like this car very much because to me it’s an EV that doesn’t send out a message.
But, there is actually a chance that it could be a sales flop if it transpires that the bulk of consumers wanting an EV are wanting it as a product to broadcast something about them. Has the market matured sufficiently that there are enough people who just want an EV for the practicality and engineering benefits rather than to project a desired message?
To me this is the real strength of Tesla. If someone needs to broadcast a message then this is the best brand by far to do that with and I’m not sure any incumbent manufacturer has the ability to compete against that.
It's an interesting balance of these that Jaguar has here. But, there is actually a chance that it could be a sales flop if it transpires that the bulk of consumers wanting an EV are wanting it as a product to broadcast something about them. Has the market matured sufficiently that there are enough people who just want an EV for the practicality and engineering benefits rather than to project a desired message?
To me this is the real strength of Tesla. If someone needs to broadcast a message then this is the best brand by far to do that with and I’m not sure any incumbent manufacturer has the ability to compete against that.
This is their entry into that coupe-ish sporty crossover SUV segment and it's only available as a pure electric car. It's certainly a striking, distinctive shape despite the family resemblance, albeit not as "out there" as the BMW i cars. To those that know, it'll be recognisable.
They could have electrified the F- or E-Pace and that would have been a stealthy, message/image-free option (and I'm sure those will come in time).
I think we're well past the "early adopter" phase where people feel the need to shout about their eco credentials. Plain stealthy cars like the e-Golf are doing fine, it's just about whether they can be competitive on numbers (range, performance, etc) and price.
I just don't know. I don't see the charging network coming along very quickly, and 45 minutes at best charging time on a long run is a long time. If you can get a charging point. I could manage it, but if you couldn't get a charging point... End of trip.
And sure, if you're just kicking around town or doing a short commute as we all are most of the time, it doesn't matter. But still, where do I charge it? I'd love to know the figures in Europe, it's not like America - we don't all have driveways.. I'd suggest most of us don't.
I have to say, and it's a shame they've not really taken off yet, that a proper plug-in hybrid would make so much sense for so many people. If I could get a 50 mile electric only run from a diesel/battery powered car (which you just about can from a few cars - the golf gte is really interesting, just far too expensive), and that 50 mile battery was easily swappable to future-proof it, and it could charge that small battery in 10 minutes at the supermarket, or an hour at home.. Sign me up. That's what I'd have, every day of the week. And when I want to be impulsive and take a spur of the moment trip? Well I can do that too. And in 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, whenever the charging network catches up, then maybe an electric car begins to make sense. Sure, you're lugging around an engine and drivetrain as well as a battery, but I'd imagine the weight penalty is minimal - battery weights are enormous. And a physically small engine - a 1.0l 3 cylinder kind of thing - wouldn't take up much space.
Anyways, total ramble. I like this thing. It'd look great if it was the size of a fiesta...sadly it'll be the size of a small tank.. But I reckon it'll do well, I hope it does.. Looking at Jags recent offerings they need something to do well - the F-Pace is so cheap feeling, and the E-Pace really quite unappealing next to the new Volvos's.
And sure, if you're just kicking around town or doing a short commute as we all are most of the time, it doesn't matter. But still, where do I charge it? I'd love to know the figures in Europe, it's not like America - we don't all have driveways.. I'd suggest most of us don't.
I have to say, and it's a shame they've not really taken off yet, that a proper plug-in hybrid would make so much sense for so many people. If I could get a 50 mile electric only run from a diesel/battery powered car (which you just about can from a few cars - the golf gte is really interesting, just far too expensive), and that 50 mile battery was easily swappable to future-proof it, and it could charge that small battery in 10 minutes at the supermarket, or an hour at home.. Sign me up. That's what I'd have, every day of the week. And when I want to be impulsive and take a spur of the moment trip? Well I can do that too. And in 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, whenever the charging network catches up, then maybe an electric car begins to make sense. Sure, you're lugging around an engine and drivetrain as well as a battery, but I'd imagine the weight penalty is minimal - battery weights are enormous. And a physically small engine - a 1.0l 3 cylinder kind of thing - wouldn't take up much space.
Anyways, total ramble. I like this thing. It'd look great if it was the size of a fiesta...sadly it'll be the size of a small tank.. But I reckon it'll do well, I hope it does.. Looking at Jags recent offerings they need something to do well - the F-Pace is so cheap feeling, and the E-Pace really quite unappealing next to the new Volvos's.
sjg said:
They could have electrified the F- or E-Pace and that would have been a stealthy, message/image-free option (and I'm sure those will come in time).
Trying to electrify a car that was designed to carry an ICE is a huge lost opportunity IMO. The skateboard battery/drivetrain for an EV is far superior to trying to cram the batteries into a chassis designed for something else entirely. I would therefore be surprised if future models don't follow the same format as the I-pace.DonkeyApple said:
It’s off over 4% since the announcement but to be honest the main market is off about 1.5% and you’d expect very high premium stocks like Tesla to lead a charge down so I don’t think you can read too much in.
The delays in the Model 3 is the far bigger problem. Over the last couple of years Cobalt prices have tripled, Lithium nearly doubled and other materials increased and the delays all eat into the projected margins to the point that the 25% gross margin quoted in 2016 is set to be almost fully eroded by the time they get to their 10,000 units a week level if the trend continues.
But I think both Audi and Merc have their EVs hitting the market this year and you have to guess that they’ll be pricing to compete against Jag rather than Tesla.
The next few years are going to be really interesting especially as you can see with this Jag the practical benefits on packaging of the EV.
And it is the raw materials for the batteries that I see as the biggest barrier to the "affordable" EV's turning up any time soon, Cobalt especially is hardly widely available, and serious supply constraints are predicted around 2022 - especially if ole Elon carries on with his mission to install batteries all over the world. Throw in where most of the world's Cobalt is located, I can see supply issues that will make us yearn for the old days of getting oil from the Middle East. Could be fixed by new battery technologies, naturally, so let's see. The delays in the Model 3 is the far bigger problem. Over the last couple of years Cobalt prices have tripled, Lithium nearly doubled and other materials increased and the delays all eat into the projected margins to the point that the 25% gross margin quoted in 2016 is set to be almost fully eroded by the time they get to their 10,000 units a week level if the trend continues.
But I think both Audi and Merc have their EVs hitting the market this year and you have to guess that they’ll be pricing to compete against Jag rather than Tesla.
The next few years are going to be really interesting especially as you can see with this Jag the practical benefits on packaging of the EV.
As for this Jag, if I had to buy an EV this would probably be it, but as I don't, I'd go for the F Pace S or X3 M40i if I was in the market for an SUV. Range issues at high speed and charge times still make it a non-starter for me - my breaks in long journeys are stop for fuel, use facilities, buy drink and carry on, so 10 minutes tops. 90 minutes to get another 150 miles up the road (if I do 56 mph) still sounds fairly pathetic.
PunterCam said:
If I could get a 50 mile electric only run from a diesel/battery powered car (which you just about can from a few cars - the golf gte is really interesting, just far too expensive), and that 50 mile battery was easily swappable to future-proof it, and it could charge that small battery in 10 minutes at the supermarket, or an hour at home.. Sign me up. That's what I'd have, every day of the week. And when I want to be impulsive and take a spur of the moment trip? Well I can do that too. And in 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, whenever the charging network catches up, then maybe an electric car begins to make sense.
I think this is exactly how the market is going to evolve over the next 10-20 years. There will be a huge choice of hybrids with varying battery range that will allow the consumer to remain compliant with all legislation and taxation while doing all their local pottering on electric and charging at home or out and about if actually desired (personally I don’t think people will. They will wait for the product that allows them not to have to fanny about with commercial charging) and then run on petrol for as many miles as is needed for those rarer, longer journeys. kambites said:
I think we're going to have both plug-in hybrids and pure EVs on the road in large numbers fairly soon. The market balance between the two is anyone's guess, we will probably be going straight from pure petrol to pure EV for our family car.
IMO there's no long term future in hybrid (except perhaps for hypercar applications), they are there to bridge the gap before pure EV is more viable for everyone. By the time batteries are well enough developed and there are 1MW charging stations everywhere instead of petrol stations giving 'fillups' in minutes, there will be no need for them.bodhi said:
And it is the raw materials for the batteries that I see as the biggest barrier to the "affordable" EV's turning up any time soon, Cobalt especially is hardly widely available, and serious supply constraints are predicted around 2022 - especially if ole Elon carries on with his mission to install batteries all over the world. Throw in where most of the world's Cobalt is located, I can see supply issues that will make us yearn for the old days of getting oil from the Middle East. Could be fixed by new battery technologies, naturally, so let's see.
Yes. All these key markets are controlled by China now. China will be the default manufacturer of batteries and the largest manufacturer of EVs. This is their long term economic goal and they have been securing control over key mineral rights to achieve this since the mid 90s. This is almost certainly why no manufacturer has entertained buying from Tesla as they cannot afford to have any supply risk for a key component. Plus, price stability is essential so you need to buy your product from a supplier who has the means to manage price spikes in materials the same way energy companies and major manufacturers do.
New Lithium resources are being invested in but it can take up to a decade for these to start delivering and Li shortages are predicted ahead of that which means price spikes and the firms that have the best control over medium and short term pricing risk will be the most profitable.
On a slight tangent I do wonder how long it will be before EVs start being stolen for their batteries?
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