RE: Jaguar's 400hp electric SUV unveiled
Discussion
rsbmw said:
IMO there's no long term future in hybrid (except perhaps for hypercar applications), they are there to bridge the gap before pure EV is more viable for everyone. By the time batteries are well enough developed and there are 1MW charging stations everywhere instead of petrol stations giving 'fillups' in minutes, there will be no need for them.
Lol. 1MW Lithium Battery charging stations? Best get the fire brigade on standby, things are about to get toasty
rsbmw said:
kambites said:
I think we're going to have both plug-in hybrids and pure EVs on the road in large numbers fairly soon. The market balance between the two is anyone's guess, we will probably be going straight from pure petrol to pure EV for our family car.
There's no long term future in PHEV (except perhaps for hypercar applications), they are there to bridge the gap before pure EV is more viable for everyone. By the time batteries are well enough developed and there are 1MW charging stations everywhere instead of petrol stations giving 'fillups' in minutes, there will be no need for them.bodhi said:
As for this Jag, if I had to buy an EV this would probably be it, but as I don't, I'd go for the F Pace S or X3 M40i if I was in the market for an SUV. Range issues at high speed and charge times still make it a non-starter for me - my breaks in long journeys are stop for fuel, use facilities, buy drink and carry on, so 10 minutes tops. 90 minutes to get another 150 miles up the road (if I do 56 mph) still sounds fairly pathetic.
The upcoming Porsche Mission E if it hits its targets should be capable of 250 miles range on 20 minutes of charge and this will filter down to Audi/VW in time. While its never going to match a diesel Passat with the extended fuel tank near 1000 mile range in a possible 5 minutes refuel time (assume no queue and you paying cash), it should be enough for most people who aren't weekly mega milers.As more people take up electric cars more and more petrol stations (Shell are already starting) and service stations will add and increase their number of electric charge points. Even the National Grid wants to roll out charging points. It is going to be a short term problem with people with both ICE and plug in hybrids blocking the limited number of charging points available today, but in a couple of years it shouldn't be a problem.
I wouldn't buy an electric car for regular long distances today, but in 18 months it would be a completely different outcome.
kambites said:
Yes but whether that's 10 years or 50, we don't know.
I rather suspect you'll still be able to buy a new range-extender hybrid for the rest of my driving life.
I agree. The step change in battery power and pricing that will make pure EVs significantly cheaper than alternatives is at an unknown date in the future. Hybrids are going to be the mainstay for well over a decade and probably much longer than that. I rather suspect you'll still be able to buy a new range-extender hybrid for the rest of my driving life.
tankplanker said:
As more people take up electric cars more and more petrol stations (Shell are already starting) and service stations will add and increase their number of electric charge points. Even the National Grid wants to roll out charging points. It is going to be a short term problem with people with both ICE and plug in hybrids blocking the limited number of charging points available today, but in a couple of years it shouldn't be a problem.
The trouble is that your traditional petrol station is based on a fairly quick in/out model (albeit with some annoying shoppers).So they will have to be re-thought for cars hanging around for a lot longer whilst still catering for the non-EVs in a limited space.
I don't see it being such a short conversion.
Actually, motorway services will have an easier job as they already have huge car parks and generally longer stays. They can fit charging points all over the car park.
DonkeyApple said:
And this is the huge question that this and the next cars from Merc and Audi will answer. Does the EV consumer market also like EVs that don’t shout about being EVs?
About a decade or so ago a big survey of Prius owners in the US found that the number one reason for the purchase was what the Prius said about the driver.
This is an article based around that data and it’s a real eye opener into the core element of car ownership that gets denied all day, throughout the day on PH but we all know is there: https://mobile.nytimes.com/2007/07/04/business/04h...
It would be fair to say that the Tesla brand has achieved the same. It would in fact be pretty much impossible to argue that human nature had magically just changed its entire way of behaving after millions of years of evolution the week before the first Tesla cars went on sale.
Now, you like this Jag partly because it’s subtle about its message to the point that it’s fair to say it doesn’t have a message, it’s just a car and it just happens to be compliant with existing and planned urban legislation and taxation around the globe. I like this car very much because to me it’s an EV that doesn’t send out a message.
But, there is actually a chance that it could be a sales flop if it transpires that the bulk of consumers wanting an EV are wanting it as a product to broadcast something about them. Has the market matured sufficiently that there are enough people who just want an EV for the practicality and engineering benefits rather than to project a desired message?
To me this is the real strength of Tesla. If someone needs to broadcast a message then this is the best brand by far to do that with and I’m not sure any incumbent manufacturer has the ability to compete against that.
I think there is a world of difference between early adopters and the mainstream. The early adopters are willing to put up with a lot (lets face it, early iterations of electric cars were pretty awful), and future versions are presumably going to be a lot better, and they want to signal that they "care" or some bobbins like that. About a decade or so ago a big survey of Prius owners in the US found that the number one reason for the purchase was what the Prius said about the driver.
This is an article based around that data and it’s a real eye opener into the core element of car ownership that gets denied all day, throughout the day on PH but we all know is there: https://mobile.nytimes.com/2007/07/04/business/04h...
It would be fair to say that the Tesla brand has achieved the same. It would in fact be pretty much impossible to argue that human nature had magically just changed its entire way of behaving after millions of years of evolution the week before the first Tesla cars went on sale.
Now, you like this Jag partly because it’s subtle about its message to the point that it’s fair to say it doesn’t have a message, it’s just a car and it just happens to be compliant with existing and planned urban legislation and taxation around the globe. I like this car very much because to me it’s an EV that doesn’t send out a message.
But, there is actually a chance that it could be a sales flop if it transpires that the bulk of consumers wanting an EV are wanting it as a product to broadcast something about them. Has the market matured sufficiently that there are enough people who just want an EV for the practicality and engineering benefits rather than to project a desired message?
To me this is the real strength of Tesla. If someone needs to broadcast a message then this is the best brand by far to do that with and I’m not sure any incumbent manufacturer has the ability to compete against that.
Most people don't care, and just want transport at a sensible price. They don't want to look weird.
The point for me about design is that electric does give you some very interesting packaging options. Unfortunately most of the design seems to consist of sticking bits of blue on the cars, funny window lines and strange details.
Human nature is still there. We will be buying Jags or BMWs and shouting about that, not the fact that it is electric or not.
swisstoni said:
tankplanker said:
As more people take up electric cars more and more petrol stations (Shell are already starting) and service stations will add and increase their number of electric charge points. Even the National Grid wants to roll out charging points. It is going to be a short term problem with people with both ICE and plug in hybrids blocking the limited number of charging points available today, but in a couple of years it shouldn't be a problem.
The trouble is that your traditional petrol station is based on a fairly quick in/out model (albeit with some annoying shoppers).So they will have to be re-thought for cars hanging around for a lot longer whilst still catering for the non-EVs in a limited space.
I don't see it being such a short conversion.
Actually, motorway services will have an easier job as they already have huge car parks and generally longer stays. They can fit charging points all over the car park.
Limpet said:
rxe said:
Sort of, but it’s aimed at the American market, and is far too big. The interior is also fecking hideous, it’s as though someone who has watched too much Space 1999 as a kid was given the chance to design “the car of the future”.
I quite like the Model S interior. 
Actually, I'm with Limpet on this: the interior of a Tesla looks perfectly fine. But maybe we could have an Eagle transporter as shed of the week
DonkeyApple said:
David87 said:
I just mean that Tesla already has a big presence at many motorway service stations. Where will all the other manufacturers put their own particular brand of charging station?
No one else is going to be following the ‘whites only’ segregation model. Going forward companies such as Ecotricity will be securing the sites and setting up the charges for all the manufacturers. They will have the full backing of the majors and also their business partners. And they will have to build supply to cater for all the premium marques’ cars. Interesting car though, it will be interesting to see where the development of e.v.s go.
This seems like an impressive product from Jaguar and good to see them taking a leap forward over the competition.
As for electric cars being the default option for motorists, I am not yet sure about them and certainly don't want to be forced into them being the only option anytime soon.
My concerns are:
1) Battery life and reduced range as the vehicle gets older - this seems to be a well documented issue with cars like the Nissan Leaf. Yes the new car buyer may get the claimed distances but the buyer of the 8 year old car might have a significantly reduced range. I don't know about you but I would certainly not be in the market for a £60k family car.
2)Charging - yes going to the petrol station can be a pain, but so can mucking about in the cold/dark/snow/wind when you get home trying to plug in the electric cable. Getting a rapid charger is a necessary expense and what about those people who have to park on the street/some distance from their house?
3) Route planning - many posts suggest that charging up at motorway service stations will solve any range issues, but what if your route/holiday does not involve motorways or accommodation with charging facilities? Once off the motorways, charging options are currently minimal and most key destinations do not have car parks full of charging bays. Out of interest, what are the charging options like if you did a tour of northwest Scotland in a day, stopping off at remote car parks that have no facilities whatsoever? We normally do 2 holidays a year in the UK and I have not yet stayed anywhere where we would actually be able to charge our car - no electric car currently on sale would provide us with the range we would require for the entire holiday, including main journey + touring around the Lakedistrict/northeat England/Scotland.
4) Reliability - I often hear it said that electric cars are mechanically more simple and therefore should be more reliable with lower cost of maintenance. Now I can see why maintenance costs should be lower but I am not convinced by the reliability side of things.
First, modern ICE vehicles are generally very reliable mechanically, though there are certainly issues with/caused by pollution control equipment (DPF/EGR valves and Direct Injection-carbon build up). It is actually the electrics that cause some of the biggest problems/headaches. Some are software related, some are glitches with computers etc. but as a car ages, electrical components and their connections can begin to cause very signifcant problems. By definition, an electric car will have more electrical components and connections which may require specialist knowledge to fault trace/repair. You certainly require specialist training to work on a high voltage Hybrid or electric car safely.
5) Loss of the manual gearbox. For me, driving a well-designed manual gearbox car is a major element in enjoying driving. Yes modern autos are very capable but I am fortunate enough to drive where traffic jams are not a problem and the open road allows one to enjoy the interaction between car and driver.
Now, I am not saying that people should not buy an electric car-far from it - indeed for many people they will be a great option. However, please don't assume they are (currently) a fix-all solution for those with differing needs/requirements/wants and budgets.
As for electric cars being the default option for motorists, I am not yet sure about them and certainly don't want to be forced into them being the only option anytime soon.
My concerns are:
1) Battery life and reduced range as the vehicle gets older - this seems to be a well documented issue with cars like the Nissan Leaf. Yes the new car buyer may get the claimed distances but the buyer of the 8 year old car might have a significantly reduced range. I don't know about you but I would certainly not be in the market for a £60k family car.
2)Charging - yes going to the petrol station can be a pain, but so can mucking about in the cold/dark/snow/wind when you get home trying to plug in the electric cable. Getting a rapid charger is a necessary expense and what about those people who have to park on the street/some distance from their house?
3) Route planning - many posts suggest that charging up at motorway service stations will solve any range issues, but what if your route/holiday does not involve motorways or accommodation with charging facilities? Once off the motorways, charging options are currently minimal and most key destinations do not have car parks full of charging bays. Out of interest, what are the charging options like if you did a tour of northwest Scotland in a day, stopping off at remote car parks that have no facilities whatsoever? We normally do 2 holidays a year in the UK and I have not yet stayed anywhere where we would actually be able to charge our car - no electric car currently on sale would provide us with the range we would require for the entire holiday, including main journey + touring around the Lakedistrict/northeat England/Scotland.
4) Reliability - I often hear it said that electric cars are mechanically more simple and therefore should be more reliable with lower cost of maintenance. Now I can see why maintenance costs should be lower but I am not convinced by the reliability side of things.
First, modern ICE vehicles are generally very reliable mechanically, though there are certainly issues with/caused by pollution control equipment (DPF/EGR valves and Direct Injection-carbon build up). It is actually the electrics that cause some of the biggest problems/headaches. Some are software related, some are glitches with computers etc. but as a car ages, electrical components and their connections can begin to cause very signifcant problems. By definition, an electric car will have more electrical components and connections which may require specialist knowledge to fault trace/repair. You certainly require specialist training to work on a high voltage Hybrid or electric car safely.
5) Loss of the manual gearbox. For me, driving a well-designed manual gearbox car is a major element in enjoying driving. Yes modern autos are very capable but I am fortunate enough to drive where traffic jams are not a problem and the open road allows one to enjoy the interaction between car and driver.
Now, I am not saying that people should not buy an electric car-far from it - indeed for many people they will be a great option. However, please don't assume they are (currently) a fix-all solution for those with differing needs/requirements/wants and budgets.
B17NNS said:
Just been through the build process on Jaguar's site.
Nobody is going to be paying £63,500 for one of these cars. The base spec (for a Jaguar) is pretty poor and some of the option prices are daylight robbery.
£1350 for adaptive cruise is a bit cheeky when a <£20k Golf SE gets it standard.Nobody is going to be paying £63,500 for one of these cars. The base spec (for a Jaguar) is pretty poor and some of the option prices are daylight robbery.
Otherwise I didn't see much I'd want to spend money on. Spending more mostly seems to get you cosmetic stuff like bigger wheels or exterior trim.
Odd that they have options like a heated windscreen when you can presumably just fire up the heating from an app and defrost it before you even get in the car.
StephenGalley said:
Was it really necessary to squeeze anti white propaganda into your comment? .
I guess it depends on how each individual wishes to interpret the context. But you can easily replace the word with anything you like that is linked to cultural or economic segregation if you have a issue with one form of segregation over another. I just figured the term ‘white’ was the least likely to cause any irrational offence. 
sjg said:
B17NNS said:
Just been through the build process on Jaguar's site.
Nobody is going to be paying £63,500 for one of these cars. The base spec (for a Jaguar) is pretty poor and some of the option prices are daylight robbery.
£1350 for adaptive cruise is a bit cheeky when a <£20k Golf SE gets it standard.Nobody is going to be paying £63,500 for one of these cars. The base spec (for a Jaguar) is pretty poor and some of the option prices are daylight robbery.
Otherwise I didn't see much I'd want to spend money on. Spending more mostly seems to get you cosmetic stuff like bigger wheels or exterior trim.
Odd that they have options like a heated windscreen when you can presumably just fire up the heating from an app and defrost it before you even get in the car.
Alex P said:
Now, I am not saying that people should not buy an electric car-far from it - indeed for many people they will be a great option. However, please don't assume they are (currently) a fix-all solution for those with differing needs/requirements/wants and budgets.
Who exactly has been saying anything otherwise? swisstoni said:
The trouble is that your traditional petrol station is based on a fairly quick in/out model (albeit with some annoying shoppers).
So they will have to be re-thought for cars hanging around for a lot longer whilst still catering for the non-EVs in a limited space.
I don't see it being such a short conversion.
Actually, motorway services will have an easier job as they already have huge car parks and generally longer stays. They can fit charging points all over the car park.
As you'll be paying much more for the charge from the petrol station than you would from home you'll only want to top it up just enough to get you where you need to go. So they will have to be re-thought for cars hanging around for a lot longer whilst still catering for the non-EVs in a limited space.
I don't see it being such a short conversion.
Actually, motorway services will have an easier job as they already have huge car parks and generally longer stays. They can fit charging points all over the car park.
The new Leaf will do nearly 90 miles of range in 30 minutes, the new Porsche 250 miles in 20 minutes (you cut that part out from my quote) and this will roll out to the majority of VAG's electric cars in time, The Teslas will do 50% in 20 minutes (150 miles on top models), the iPace is saying 80% in 40 minutes (at least another 200 miles) so safe to assume 40% in about 20 minutes.
I think 20 minutes for a useful top up of at least a 100 miles is plenty. 10 minutes for a petrol fill up isn't that unusual so another 10 minutes isn't horrendous. Petrol stations would love the captive market as they can upsell overpriced coffee/cakes. At a motorway service station a 30 minute stop after ~200 non stop miles seems fine to me. Only the mega mile reps would want to avoid the stop, and those are going to be diesel for a very long time because diesel makes much more sense for them currently.
Although it’s not just about mega miles.
If you want to drive 100 miles, have Sunday lunch or a weekend in Town etc, drive 100 miles back without wanting to bother with charging at your destintion, without wanting to have your style of driving dictated by range and with a spare float for pottering at the destination and for any changes of plans or circumstances then I’m not yet convinced that a car with a 300 mike range will do that in the real world.
Obviously, this sounds like a slightly unusual requirement but thousands of Londoners (who don’t really use their car during the week but if they do it’s very low milaeage and in an environment which rewards EVs) head out of London every weekend to tourist destinations, that 90 miles out then 90 miles back in starts to be an issue with a modest EV and start dictating where you go to and how long you stay there. It starts to become an inconvenience.
If you want to drive 100 miles, have Sunday lunch or a weekend in Town etc, drive 100 miles back without wanting to bother with charging at your destintion, without wanting to have your style of driving dictated by range and with a spare float for pottering at the destination and for any changes of plans or circumstances then I’m not yet convinced that a car with a 300 mike range will do that in the real world.
Obviously, this sounds like a slightly unusual requirement but thousands of Londoners (who don’t really use their car during the week but if they do it’s very low milaeage and in an environment which rewards EVs) head out of London every weekend to tourist destinations, that 90 miles out then 90 miles back in starts to be an issue with a modest EV and start dictating where you go to and how long you stay there. It starts to become an inconvenience.
The future ideally lies in cars connected to chargers when not in use, as this will allow them to draw from the grid when power is cheap, and discharge back to the grid when power is expensive. If you come back from work at 6pm, with 50% battery left, you can afford to sell 25% of that to the grid when power is expensive, say between 7pm and 9pm, then recharge at 1am when power is cheap, giving you 100% to start the day with.
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