RE: BMW M140i Finale says bye to rear-drive six-pot
Discussion
daveco said:
Are manufacturers thinking long term here?
If every manufacturer essentially sells their car with very similar engines/drivetrains/transmissions, what will their USPs be?
Given everything is going to be electric far sooner than most people think If every manufacturer essentially sells their car with very similar engines/drivetrains/transmissions, what will their USPs be?
1. No gearbox instead 1 gear from standstill to max speed
2. Motors on both axles and sports versions motors on each wheel
3. No sound
4. No need for racing brakes as the EV brake setup is superb and doesn’t require it.
5. Range will be important - but only tpvstart once we get above x miles of genuine range it’s irrelevant.
Differentiation then will be body style and internal entertainment differences boot size seat comfort that’s it.
This generation of hot hatches it utterly bonkers. To think that something with circa 100 bhp and weighing less than a tonne was something special 30 years ago is mad.
The B58 is last of the decent engines, on which the internals can supposedly take circa 600 bhp (don't shoot me, I read that somewhere!).
A old work colleague had a 65 plate 135i with I believe is the N55 engine. It had a light remap and that thing felt quick and planted, whilst making a decent exhaust note.
Once the ethos of BMW, now sadly becoming extinct - RIP 6 Cylinder Engines.
The B58 is last of the decent engines, on which the internals can supposedly take circa 600 bhp (don't shoot me, I read that somewhere!).
A old work colleague had a 65 plate 135i with I believe is the N55 engine. It had a light remap and that thing felt quick and planted, whilst making a decent exhaust note.
Once the ethos of BMW, now sadly becoming extinct - RIP 6 Cylinder Engines.
Edited by pSyCoSiS on Tuesday 12th February 19:30
ITP said:
I too prefer a rwd car, but rwd does not always guarantee good handling. It can depend on many things in the set up. Taken to the extreme, you would not say a rolls Royce silver shadow has more balanced and fun handling than a 205gti just because it is rwd.
As a more relevant example, many moons ago I had an e30 325i sport (wish I still had it now, worth loads!), it was a nice car but the handling was not too good, even with an lsd. The steering was poor and the balance nothing special. But it was great, as it had a creamy straight 6. Even just starting it up put a smile on my face. I didn’t have to drive fast to enjoy it. (Good fun drifting round roundabouts though thanks to the lsd!)
The car before it was a Peugeot 405GR, a 1.9 4 cyl, fwd. The handling, ride and steering were considerable better at all times and especially when pressing on. Balance was much better, a very neutral car. Didn’t make me smile starting it up or just running about day to day though.
Hence, for me, a special engine can give more enjoyment, more of the time, than ultimate pin sharp handling and balance.
If you can get a car with both, then that’s the ultimate of course. I feel the M140i is more dominated by its engine, which is fine by me, but a lotus Evora it isn’t. Only thing that stops me from getting one is that they are a bit ugly and the pedals are offset a bit in the manual.
I first drove a 405 30 years ago, nearly new GTX model (1.9i?) and couldn't believe how sharp it was, and how well it rode. An E30 320i (similar on paper 120-130 bhp) felt like a turd in comparison.As a more relevant example, many moons ago I had an e30 325i sport (wish I still had it now, worth loads!), it was a nice car but the handling was not too good, even with an lsd. The steering was poor and the balance nothing special. But it was great, as it had a creamy straight 6. Even just starting it up put a smile on my face. I didn’t have to drive fast to enjoy it. (Good fun drifting round roundabouts though thanks to the lsd!)
The car before it was a Peugeot 405GR, a 1.9 4 cyl, fwd. The handling, ride and steering were considerable better at all times and especially when pressing on. Balance was much better, a very neutral car. Didn’t make me smile starting it up or just running about day to day though.
Hence, for me, a special engine can give more enjoyment, more of the time, than ultimate pin sharp handling and balance.
If you can get a car with both, then that’s the ultimate of course. I feel the M140i is more dominated by its engine, which is fine by me, but a lotus Evora it isn’t. Only thing that stops me from getting one is that they are a bit ugly and the pedals are offset a bit in the manual.
daveco said:
Are manufacturers thinking long term here?
If every manufacturer essentially sells their car with very similar engines/drivetrains/transmissions, what will their USPs be?
Indeed. To me, the quintessential BMW will always be a rear-wheel drive car with a normally aspirated straight six.If every manufacturer essentially sells their car with very similar engines/drivetrains/transmissions, what will their USPs be?
anonymous said:
[redacted]
But, this too.That said, I'd rather have a car that's inferior on the spec sheets but touches my heart more, hence why I'd have a Porsche 981 Boxster/Cayman over a 718... but then, I'm in the minority.
bodhi said:
If the other guy were to wait for a couple of seconds before flooring it, by which time the old fashioned N/A was already wound up into the fun part, then yes it would be quicker 
It's worth doing a similar exercise coming off a roundabout at the same time as an i3 just outside Birmingham, makes you wonder where these claims it's the fastest accelerating car BMW have ever made come from
I have never heard the quote the i3 is the fastest accelerating BMW. I own one, and would say in city centres for diving about traffic, little comes close to a i3 for finding gaps based on size and acceleration from 30-60It's worth doing a similar exercise coming off a roundabout at the same time as an i3 just outside Birmingham, makes you wonder where these claims it's the fastest accelerating car BMW have ever made come from
iSore said:
ITP said:
I too prefer a rwd car, but rwd does not always guarantee good handling. It can depend on many things in the set up. Taken to the extreme, you would not say a rolls Royce silver shadow has more balanced and fun handling than a 205gti just because it is rwd.
As a more relevant example, many moons ago I had an e30 325i sport (wish I still had it now, worth loads!), it was a nice car but the handling was not too good, even with an lsd. The steering was poor and the balance nothing special. But it was great, as it had a creamy straight 6. Even just starting it up put a smile on my face. I didn’t have to drive fast to enjoy it. (Good fun drifting round roundabouts though thanks to the lsd!)
The car before it was a Peugeot 405GR, a 1.9 4 cyl, fwd. The handling, ride and steering were considerable better at all times and especially when pressing on. Balance was much better, a very neutral car. Didn’t make me smile starting it up or just running about day to day though.
Hence, for me, a special engine can give more enjoyment, more of the time, than ultimate pin sharp handling and balance.
If you can get a car with both, then that’s the ultimate of course. I feel the M140i is more dominated by its engine, which is fine by me, but a lotus Evora it isn’t. Only thing that stops me from getting one is that they are a bit ugly and the pedals are offset a bit in the manual.
I first drove a 405 30 years ago, nearly new GTX model (1.9i?) and couldn't believe how sharp it was, and how well it rode. An E30 320i (similar on paper 120-130 bhp) felt like a turd in comparison.As a more relevant example, many moons ago I had an e30 325i sport (wish I still had it now, worth loads!), it was a nice car but the handling was not too good, even with an lsd. The steering was poor and the balance nothing special. But it was great, as it had a creamy straight 6. Even just starting it up put a smile on my face. I didn’t have to drive fast to enjoy it. (Good fun drifting round roundabouts though thanks to the lsd!)
The car before it was a Peugeot 405GR, a 1.9 4 cyl, fwd. The handling, ride and steering were considerable better at all times and especially when pressing on. Balance was much better, a very neutral car. Didn’t make me smile starting it up or just running about day to day though.
Hence, for me, a special engine can give more enjoyment, more of the time, than ultimate pin sharp handling and balance.
If you can get a car with both, then that’s the ultimate of course. I feel the M140i is more dominated by its engine, which is fine by me, but a lotus Evora it isn’t. Only thing that stops me from getting one is that they are a bit ugly and the pedals are offset a bit in the manual.
Only it was a 309 1.9 GTi rather than a 405 1.9 being compared to E30 BMWs
JD said:
Over the wet winter period it’s not even as fast as an S3, let alone an RS3!
And that is important on the public road?You should be driving to the road conditions, not in some mistaken belief that Vorsprung Durch Technik means "I can defy the laws of physics"
Typical bloody Audi driver
aeropilot said:
JD said:
Over the wet winter period it’s not even as fast as an S3, let alone an RS3!
And that is important on the public road?You should be driving to the road conditions, not in some mistaken belief that Vorsprung Durch Technik means "I can defy the laws of physics"
Typical bloody Audi driver
If you value RWD, the squirming of tires and general fun, just get the BMW.
Why did Audi add the RWS R8, I truly wonder...
J4CKO said:
Now its is coming to an end its canonization has begun, it was the ugly, cheap, lease rocket with one wheel drive, crap steering and iffy handling.....
I think it was canonized at birth and here. OK it's only Chris Harris so what does he know ? https://www.pistonheads.com/regulars/ph-chrisharri...A very tractable car with fine handling and no worse steering than the competition, probably a bit better and less corrupted what with RWD and low PMOI.
What's happened is the inherent PH negativity of mainly people not having driven one has taken over.
As for uglyness, it's highly subjective. A 3-door LCI is my favourite hatch in terms of design, what with the short front overhang and the simplicity of the lines.
wab172uk said:
TheAngryDog said:
wab172uk said:
For the next 1 Series, BMW please.
1) Give it an option of a manual gearbox. Those of us that prefer manuals, don't give a sh*t if it's 0.2 seconds slower to 60.
2) AWD and 350bhp will be nicer than 300bhp.
3) Please for the love of God, make the next 1 series (and 2 Series) an attractive car to look at. The past 2 efforts is the reason why I've never even considered one.
BMW have just been on the phone to PH and confirmed that they're making this special edition for PH members only. They want to know when you're paying?1) Give it an option of a manual gearbox. Those of us that prefer manuals, don't give a sh*t if it's 0.2 seconds slower to 60.
2) AWD and 350bhp will be nicer than 300bhp.
3) Please for the love of God, make the next 1 series (and 2 Series) an attractive car to look at. The past 2 efforts is the reason why I've never even considered one.
Joking aside, the market doesn't want these types of cars now, hence why we get what we get. The people that do want them are very few in number in the grand scheme of things. How many people would buy these new? Most people who want the manual option etc will be 2nd or 3rd owners.
I assume that you would have a bought one had it been as you describe in your wish list?
E9AAP said:
aeropilot said:
JD said:
Over the wet winter period it’s not even as fast as an S3, let alone an RS3!
And that is important on the public road?You should be driving to the road conditions, not in some mistaken belief that Vorsprung Durch Technik means "I can defy the laws of physics"
Typical bloody Audi driver
If you value RWD, the squirming of tires and general fun, just get the BMW.
Why did Audi add the RWS R8, I truly wonder...
I'd take 4wd in the wet all day everyday, but I do prefer Rwd in the dry though for sure.
E9AAP said:
Audi drivers, allways talking about the quality of the leather and smugface no one will get near me when it's wet outside. If those metrics are important, great you probably made the correct decision.
If you value RWD, the squirming of tires and general fun, just get the BMW.
Why did Audi add the RWS R8, I truly wonder...
A business decision to sell more cars by offering an existing vehicle at a lower price point. Thanks to things like economies of scale and brand loyalty the RWS reduces the unit cost of EVERY R8 sold and also entices new custom into the brand who then may trade up in the future, thereby increasing profitability of the line and investing in future brand loyalty. If you value RWD, the squirming of tires and general fun, just get the BMW.
Why did Audi add the RWS R8, I truly wonder...
Audi didn’t add it because they were like “damn those minority purists really hate us we must do something about this or we are finished as a business and brand.”
E9AAP said:
aeropilot said:
JD said:
Over the wet winter period it’s not even as fast as an S3, let alone an RS3!
And that is important on the public road?You should be driving to the road conditions, not in some mistaken belief that Vorsprung Durch Technik means "I can defy the laws of physics"
Typical bloody Audi driver
If you value RWD, the squirming of tires and general fun, just get the BMW.
Why did Audi add the RWS R8, I truly wonder...
I got a M235i sDrive and with in 3 hours I completely got the USP of BMW. The balance of that car, rwd, nice power etc on the roads we have here was just superb. Then all the rest of the features start to click into place. I get Audi have some great cars, but the noise heavy Quattro aspect just isnt for the enjoyment of driving.
ITP said:
RobM77 said:
mylesmcd said:
RobM77 said:
mylesmcd said:
ITP said:
freeform said:
A bit late in the thread with this sentiment but....
The only possible justifcation to buy a small BMW is soon to vanish.
From that day on, any luke-warm to hot hatch will do just as well.
I do agree with this.The only possible justifcation to buy a small BMW is soon to vanish.
From that day on, any luke-warm to hot hatch will do just as well.
Edited by freeform on Tuesday 12th February 12:18
The USP will be gone. I’ve had 4 BMW’s, all straight 6, really can’t get excited about a 4 cyl one. There is no point paying a premium to me, the build quality isn’t any better than mainstream brands, hasn’t been for a long time.
Not singling our BMW here, Mercedes quality dipped 20 years ago.
Then you drive a six.
I love a six as much as the next man (I've owned four!), but are you saying that 6cyl engines are BMW's main selling point?! I always assumed that rear drive was BMW's main selling point? Most manufacturers now take the easy way out and build FWD cars nice and cheaply with good interior space, whilst Munich are still going to the trouble of building front engine rear drive cars that handle well, to the detriment of cost and interior space. This is BMW's single defining feature, surely? In fact, any other manufacture that wants a piece of the pie has either failed attempting it with FWD, or has gone to great expensive to re-create the FE/RWD platform and succeeded (e.g. Alfa and Jaguar of late).Despite owning four 6 cyl models in the past and being a big fan, I'd argue that some of BMW's finest handling cars are 4cyl. Usually in any range at any given time the 4cyl models have less all up weight and less weight over the nose. I loved my E36 328i sport coupé, but I won't deny that the 318i actually handled better. E30 M3?....
I was mainly replying to freeform and ITP.As a more relevant example, many moons ago I had an e30 325i sport (wish I still had it now, worth loads!), it was a nice car but the handling was not too good, even with an lsd. The steering was poor and the balance nothing special. But it was great, as it had a creamy straight 6. Even just starting it up put a smile on my face. I didn’t have to drive fast to enjoy it. (Good fun drifting round roundabouts though thanks to the lsd!)
The car before it was a Peugeot 405GR, a 1.9 4 cyl, fwd. The handling, ride and steering were considerable better at all times and especially when pressing on. Balance was much better, a very neutral car. Didn’t make me smile starting it up or just running about day to day though.
Hence, for me, a special engine can give more enjoyment, more of the time, than ultimate pin sharp handling and balance.
If you can get a car with both, then that’s the ultimate of course. I feel the M140i is more dominated by its engine, which is fine by me, but a lotus Evora it isn’t. Only thing that stops me from getting one is that they are a bit ugly and the pedals are offset a bit in the manual.
ITP said:
RobM77 said:
mylesmcd said:
RobM77 said:
mylesmcd said:
ITP said:
freeform said:
A bit late in the thread with this sentiment but....
The only possible justifcation to buy a small BMW is soon to vanish.
From that day on, any luke-warm to hot hatch will do just as well.
I do agree with this.The only possible justifcation to buy a small BMW is soon to vanish.
From that day on, any luke-warm to hot hatch will do just as well.
Edited by freeform on Tuesday 12th February 12:18
The USP will be gone. I’ve had 4 BMW’s, all straight 6, really can’t get excited about a 4 cyl one. There is no point paying a premium to me, the build quality isn’t any better than mainstream brands, hasn’t been for a long time.
Not singling our BMW here, Mercedes quality dipped 20 years ago.
Then you drive a six.
I love a six as much as the next man (I've owned four!), but are you saying that 6cyl engines are BMW's main selling point?! I always assumed that rear drive was BMW's main selling point? Most manufacturers now take the easy way out and build FWD cars nice and cheaply with good interior space, whilst Munich are still going to the trouble of building front engine rear drive cars that handle well, to the detriment of cost and interior space. This is BMW's single defining feature, surely? In fact, any other manufacture that wants a piece of the pie has either failed attempting it with FWD, or has gone to great expensive to re-create the FE/RWD platform and succeeded (e.g. Alfa and Jaguar of late).Despite owning four 6 cyl models in the past and being a big fan, I'd argue that some of BMW's finest handling cars are 4cyl. Usually in any range at any given time the 4cyl models have less all up weight and less weight over the nose. I loved my E36 328i sport coupé, but I won't deny that the 318i actually handled better. E30 M3?....
I was mainly replying to freeform and ITP.As a more relevant example, many moons ago I had an e30 325i sport (wish I still had it now, worth loads!), it was a nice car but the handling was not too good, even with an lsd. The steering was poor and the balance nothing special. But it was great, as it had a creamy straight 6. Even just starting it up put a smile on my face. I didn’t have to drive fast to enjoy it. (Good fun drifting round roundabouts though thanks to the lsd!)
The car before it was a Peugeot 405GR, a 1.9 4 cyl, fwd. The handling, ride and steering were considerable better at all times and especially when pressing on. Balance was much better, a very neutral car. Didn’t make me smile starting it up or just running about day to day though.
Hence, for me, a special engine can give more enjoyment, more of the time, than ultimate pin sharp handling and balance.
If you can get a car with both, then that’s the ultimate of course. I feel the M140i is more dominated by its engine, which is fine by me, but a lotus Evora it isn’t. Only thing that stops me from getting one is that they are a bit ugly and the pedals are offset a bit in the manual.
Much as I like a six, prefer rwd and enjoy good handling, my point was not that any or all are essential. I am often left cold by BMWs even though the right ingredients may appear on the spec list but, in a world where the sporting choice is almost universally Front/Haldex 4wd with a turbo'd four, the M140i stands out as something different and the last of its type.
Yes, I know, the M140i's faults are well known and documented here and I might hate it if I had one but I'd be willing to try.
I also agree, the bigger motor does not always make for the best handling but with the weight and inertness of modern cars it can be hard to tell which end is driven without a big wedge of torque.
As for the E30 M3....
An all-time favourite I have missed the boat on!!
Edited by freeform on Wednesday 13th February 08:54
freeform said:
ITP said:
RobM77 said:
mylesmcd said:
RobM77 said:
mylesmcd said:
ITP said:
freeform said:
A bit late in the thread with this sentiment but....
The only possible justifcation to buy a small BMW is soon to vanish.
From that day on, any luke-warm to hot hatch will do just as well.
I do agree with this.The only possible justifcation to buy a small BMW is soon to vanish.
From that day on, any luke-warm to hot hatch will do just as well.
Edited by freeform on Tuesday 12th February 12:18
The USP will be gone. I’ve had 4 BMW’s, all straight 6, really can’t get excited about a 4 cyl one. There is no point paying a premium to me, the build quality isn’t any better than mainstream brands, hasn’t been for a long time.
Not singling our BMW here, Mercedes quality dipped 20 years ago.
Then you drive a six.
I love a six as much as the next man (I've owned four!), but are you saying that 6cyl engines are BMW's main selling point?! I always assumed that rear drive was BMW's main selling point? Most manufacturers now take the easy way out and build FWD cars nice and cheaply with good interior space, whilst Munich are still going to the trouble of building front engine rear drive cars that handle well, to the detriment of cost and interior space. This is BMW's single defining feature, surely? In fact, any other manufacture that wants a piece of the pie has either failed attempting it with FWD, or has gone to great expensive to re-create the FE/RWD platform and succeeded (e.g. Alfa and Jaguar of late).Despite owning four 6 cyl models in the past and being a big fan, I'd argue that some of BMW's finest handling cars are 4cyl. Usually in any range at any given time the 4cyl models have less all up weight and less weight over the nose. I loved my E36 328i sport coupé, but I won't deny that the 318i actually handled better. E30 M3?....
I was mainly replying to freeform and ITP.As a more relevant example, many moons ago I had an e30 325i sport (wish I still had it now, worth loads!), it was a nice car but the handling was not too good, even with an lsd. The steering was poor and the balance nothing special. But it was great, as it had a creamy straight 6. Even just starting it up put a smile on my face. I didn’t have to drive fast to enjoy it. (Good fun drifting round roundabouts though thanks to the lsd!)
The car before it was a Peugeot 405GR, a 1.9 4 cyl, fwd. The handling, ride and steering were considerable better at all times and especially when pressing on. Balance was much better, a very neutral car. Didn’t make me smile starting it up or just running about day to day though.
Hence, for me, a special engine can give more enjoyment, more of the time, than ultimate pin sharp handling and balance.
If you can get a car with both, then that’s the ultimate of course. I feel the M140i is more dominated by its engine, which is fine by me, but a lotus Evora it isn’t. Only thing that stops me from getting one is that they are a bit ugly and the pedals are offset a bit in the manual.
Much as I like a six, prefer rwd and enjoy good handling, my point was not that any or all are essential. I am often left cold by BMWs even though the right ingredients may appear on the spec list but, in a world where the sporting choice is almost universally Front/Haldex 4wd with a turbo'd four, the M140i stands out as something different and the last of its type.
Yes, I know, the M140i's faults are well known and documented here and I might hate it if I had one but I'd be willing to try.
I also agree, the bigger motor does not always make for the best handling but with the weight and inertness of modern cars it can be hard to tell which end is driven without a big wedge of torque.
As for the E30 M3....
An all-time favourite I have missed the boat on!!
Edited by freeform on Wednesday 13th February 08:54
E9AAP said:
aeropilot said:
JD said:
Over the wet winter period it’s not even as fast as an S3, let alone an RS3!
And that is important on the public road?You should be driving to the road conditions, not in some mistaken belief that Vorsprung Durch Technik means "I can defy the laws of physics"
Typical bloody Audi driver
If you value RWD, the squirming of tires and general fun, just get the BMW.
Why did Audi add the RWS R8, I truly wonder...
I was simply responding to the person claiming it was as fast as an RS3.
JD said:
E9AAP said:
aeropilot said:
JD said:
Over the wet winter period it’s not even as fast as an S3, let alone an RS3!
And that is important on the public road?You should be driving to the road conditions, not in some mistaken belief that Vorsprung Durch Technik means "I can defy the laws of physics"
Typical bloody Audi driver
If you value RWD, the squirming of tires and general fun, just get the BMW.
Why did Audi add the RWS R8, I truly wonder...
I was simply responding to the person claiming it was as fast as an RS3.
Which, this time of year isnt very often ad the M lites are a bit hampered when its cold and/or wet.
but life isnt about "beating" anything else on the road anyway, they are all so fast nowadays it is lunacy to start doing that kind of thing, going a bit slower when its damp isnt a bad thing, 4wd has more traction but you still only have so much cornering and braking grip.
RS3 isnt an option for most of us buyers of the BMW, same as the A45 isnt, down to cost but not sure I would have gone for either over the BMW anyway.
J4CKO said:
JD said:
E9AAP said:
aeropilot said:
JD said:
Over the wet winter period it’s not even as fast as an S3, let alone an RS3!
And that is important on the public road?You should be driving to the road conditions, not in some mistaken belief that Vorsprung Durch Technik means "I can defy the laws of physics"
Typical bloody Audi driver
If you value RWD, the squirming of tires and general fun, just get the BMW.
Why did Audi add the RWS R8, I truly wonder...
I was simply responding to the person claiming it was as fast as an RS3.
Which, this time of year isnt very often ad the M lites are a bit hampered when its cold and/or wet.
but life isnt about "beating" anything else on the road anyway, they are all so fast nowadays it is lunacy to start doing that kind of thing, going a bit slower when its damp isnt a bad thing, 4wd has more traction but you still only have so much cornering and braking grip.
RS3 isnt an option for most of us buyers of the BMW, same as the A45 isnt, down to cost but not sure I would have gone for either over the BMW anyway.
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