Life as a cycle commuter

[oyster]

WinstonWolf said:

rambo19 said:

J4CKO said:

Which laws ?

It is basically going through red lights isnt it, there arent that many transgressions of traffic law you can
do on a bike.

Red lights.
One way streets.
No lights.
On the pavement.
Not stopping at crossings.

I am not saying motorists don't do any of the above.
But, and theres always a but, 100 cars on the road and 100 bikes on the road, the majority of the bikes will break the law, ime.

Realistically 95 of those cars will break the law too... In fact I suspect the percentage of motorists who break the law is far higher than cyclists as there's far more laws for car drivers to break.

I notice rambo19 hasn't yet answered the pertinent question about cars breaking the law. But I suspect he doesn't think 31 in a 30 is actually illegal. So his argument is therefore irrelevant.

[singlecoil]

oyster said:

WinstonWolf said:

rambo19 said:

J4CKO said:

Which laws ?

It is basically going through red lights isnt it, there arent that many transgressions of traffic law you can
do on a bike.

Red lights.
One way streets.
No lights.
On the pavement.
Not stopping at crossings.

I am not saying motorists don't do any of the above.
But, and theres always a but, 100 cars on the road and 100 bikes on the road, the majority of the bikes will break the law, ime.

Realistically 95 of those cars will break the law too... In fact I suspect the percentage of motorists who break the law is far higher than cyclists as there's far more laws for car drivers to break.

I notice rambo19 hasn't yet answered the pertinent question about cars breaking the law. But I suspect he doesn't think 31 in a 30 is actually illegal. So his argument is therefore irrelevant.

So you dismiss his argument because of your suspicions? I find that quite amusing, if you don't mind me saying so.

[dapearson]

rambo19 said:

Red lights.
One way streets.
No lights.
On the pavement.
Not stopping at crossings.

I am not saying motorists don't do any of the above.
But, and theres always a but, 100 cars on the road and 100 bikes on the road, the majority of the bikes will break the law, ime.

Have to agree. Majority of cyclists ignore some of those laws very often. Majority of car drivers don't - in fact a car driver mounting a kerb, running a red light, going the wrong way down a one-way street and failing to stop at a crossing is quite rare. Not having lights on is quite common though.

[Snowboy]

Illegality is a red herring.
Just a silly distraction.

The question should be;
Are their actions detrimental to other road users?
If so, are their actions illegal?

I don't care if people bend or break laws if it doesn't bother other road users or pedestrians.

Bikes on empty pavements, bikes using pedestrian crossings, cars speeding by a few mph.
It's not a problem.

[Mave]

Snowboy said:

Mave said:

Yes, but what percentage of the cars will break the law?

In my experience the majority of the time a cyclist and car have a problem with each other it's because one of them hasn't left enough space when passing, or hasn't left enough space for the other to pass.

Can't disagree, although there's also the issue I quite often experience of motorists not letting a cyclist position themselves despite lots of warning and hand signals.

Anyway, the point I was making was that Rambo19 has twice now stated that the majority of cyclists break the law, but hasn't provided a view of how many motorists break the law. IMHO the percentages are quite similar, I wish the discussion would move beyond "yes but cyclists jump red lights" to discussing the key dangerous behaviours of each mode of transport.

[Mave]

dapearson said:

rambo19 said:

Red lights.
One way streets.
No lights.
On the pavement.
Not stopping at crossings.

I am not saying motorists don't do any of the above.
But, and theres always a but, 100 cars on the road and 100 bikes on the road, the majority of the bikes will break the law, ime.

Have to agree. Majority of cyclists ignore some of those laws very often. Majority of car drivers don't - in fact a car driver mounting a kerb, running a red light, going the wrong way down a one-way street and failing to stop at a crossing is quite rare. Not having lights on is quite common though.

At a junction on my way home today I counted 9 cars jumping the lights through one complete sequence. Every morning at a motorway slip road there will be 1 or 2 cars in each lane going through a red light. Does this make it right to generalise that the majority of motorists break the law?

[Mave]

Snowboy said:

Illegality is a red herring.
Just a silly distraction.

The question should be;
Are their actions detrimental to other road users?
If so, are their actions illegal?

I don't care if people bend or break laws if it doesn't bother other road users or pedestrians.

Bikes on empty pavements, bikes using pedestrian crossings, cars speeding by a few mph.
It's not a problem.

Generally agree with this, but something doesn't need to be explicitly illegal for it to be dangerous. Joint responsibility for safety, due care and consideration for other road users are more important than strict legality IMHO. Lycra covered hugs

[rambo19]

oyster said:

I notice rambo19 hasn't yet answered the pertinent question about cars breaking the law. But I suspect he doesn't think 31 in a 30 is actually illegal. So his argument is therefore irrelevant.

Give me a chance!!!!

Yes, I see car drivers breaking the law everyday, mobile phone use being the worst.

If we sat at a set off traffic lights for an hour, and 100 cars past through and 100 cyclists, IME, 99% of the motorists would obey the traffic lights, however, the vast majority of cyclists would dis obey the lights.

The problem is with cyclists running red lights is not only do they put themselves in danger, the also put other road users in danger.
I would be interested to know the figures as far as prosecutions go;
Of the amount of cyclists who died as a result of RTC's, how many of the drivers were charged?

I'm fed up with cyclists blaming everyone else for thier problems, they MUST take responsibilty for thier actions.
If a car driver is involved in a RTC with a cyclist, and it's the car drivers fault, they can, and should be charged.
But, and heres the but again, if the cyclist is found at fault, they should be charged.

IME, it's got to the stage now that cyclists think they can do whatever they want on the road.

The other night i'm driving along a dark road in my bus, in front of me was a BMW estate police car(traffic, I assume).
We came up behind a man on a bike with no lights and dressed in dark clothing, but the police drover straight past him!!
I would of liked the police to of stopped him, issued a FPN and let his tyres down so he has to push the bike home.
99% of commercial vehciles now have all the latest mirrors, some have audiable indicator buzzers and all drivers who drive for a living MUST do CPC.
But what do cyclists have to do?, nothing.

[anonymous-user]

I rarely pitch in to these threads because life is too short, but:

"Every time I see an adult on a bicycle I no longer despair for the future of the human race" HG Wells

As a driver and previously long time cycle commuter, I really believe this, lovely, lovely people cycle. But my pregnant wife just stepped out into the road yesterday, at a pedestrian crossing, with a clear red light showing to traffic and a cyclist came within a couple of centimetres of damaging her and probably killing our unborn child- and he was gone. Unbelievable. Of course, he didn't know she was pregnant, but what difference does that make?

I love cycling in London, but I see a lot more idiots these days, taking risks and in a real them and us. Drivers typically just as bad. At the end of the day we are all much the same, and trying to get home/ to work/ to pick up the kids/ deliver a package and the danger is in starting to see the others as "them"- I'm on a bike so cars are full of w*nkers, I'm in a car so cyclists are all w*nkers. You can't put policemen at junctions to fix that.

We've all got somewhere to be and probably all got someone who cares whether we get there.

[Mave]

rambo19 said:

oyster said:

I notice rambo19 hasn't yet answered the pertinent question about cars breaking the law. But I suspect he doesn't think 31 in a 30 is actually illegal. So his argument is therefore irrelevant.

I'm fed up with cyclists blaming everyone else for thier problems, they MUST take responsibilty for thier actions.

See the irony is, all these threads are started by motorists blaming cyclists for collisions between cars and bikes, despite motorists being 3-4 times as likely to be at fault in those collisions.

A few times a week (especially at this time of year), waiting for the morning kettle to boil, I end up in conversations with my cycling work mates discussing safety. We talk about lights, tyres, visibility, eye contact, alternative routes to avoid dodgy junctions, lane positioning around dodgy junctions. I can't think of an occasion where we've whinged about drivers because we can't actually do anything about it.

By contrast, a few times a week, a motorist will stick up post up here discussing what cyclists should be doing to improve road safety. If motorists in general spent as much time thinking about how to improve their own driving (which they can do something about) as they do about cyclists cycling (which they can't do anything about), the roads would be much safer for everyone. IMHO of course

[BGarside]

Mave said:

See the irony is, all these threads are started by motorists blaming cyclists for collisions between cars and bikes, despite motorists being 3-4 times as likely to be at fault in those collisions.

A few times a week (especially at this time of year), waiting for the morning kettle to boil, I end up in conversations with my cycling work mates discussing safety. We talk about lights, tyres, visibility, eye contact, alternative routes to avoid dodgy junctions, lane positioning around dodgy junctions. I can't think of an occasion where we've whinged about drivers because we can't actually do anything about it.

By contrast, a few times a week, a motorist will stick up post up here discussing what cyclists should be doing to improve road safety. If motorists in general spent as much time thinking about how to improve their own driving (which they can do something about) as they do about cyclists cycling (which they can't do anything about), the roads would be much safer for everyone. IMHO of course

+1. I don't hear too many drivers being as critical of the idiotic antics of other drivers as they are of some cyclists' behaviour...

[BGarside]

rambo19 said:

Give me a chance!!!!

Yes, I see car drivers breaking the law everyday, mobile phone use being the worst.

If we sat at a set off traffic lights for an hour, and 100 cars past through and 100 cyclists, IME, 99% of the motorists would obey the traffic lights, however, the vast majority of cyclists would dis obey the lights.

The problem is with cyclists running red lights is not only do they put themselves in danger, the also put other road users in danger.
I would be interested to know the figures as far as prosecutions go;
Of the amount of cyclists who died as a result of RTC's, how many of the drivers were charged?

I'm fed up with cyclists blaming everyone else for thier problems, they MUST take responsibilty for thier actions.
If a car driver is involved in a RTC with a cyclist, and it's the car drivers fault, they can, and should be charged.
But, and heres the but again, if the cyclist is found at fault, they should be charged.

IME, it's got to the stage now that cyclists think they can do whatever they want on the road.

The other night i'm driving along a dark road in my bus, in front of me was a BMW estate police car(traffic, I assume).
We came up behind a man on a bike with no lights and dressed in dark clothing, but the police drover straight past him!!
I would of liked the police to of stopped him, issued a FPN and let his tyres down so he has to push the bike home.
99% of commercial vehciles now have all the latest mirrors, some have audiable indicator buzzers and all drivers who drive for a living MUST do CPC.
But what do cyclists have to do?, nothing.

What we have to do is stay alive in a hostile environment.

Probably 95% of the near misses I have while cycling to work are due to aggressive or inattentive drivers. I obey the rules of the road but I often feel like the odd one out - every day I see many drivers speeding, talking on mobiles, failing to indicate, driving past me with inches to spare, running red lights, illegally parking on pavements and at junctions, etc, etc.

I'd love to see the police activaly patrolling the roads and enforcing the law as it would make my cycle commute much safer. However, I think British drivers could not cope with this as they've become accustomed to breaking the law whenever and however they wish.

[Snowboy]

One obvious problem, with no obvious solution, is that car drivers are accountable for thier actions, but cyclists (generally) aren't.

Traffic cameras and cctv can't ID cyclists.
A motorist or pedestrian can't report a cyclists number plate.
There is no cycling licence to gain points.

I think a few changes to road law are needed.
I think one solution would be to ban left filtering on junctions without cycle lanes.
Fine riders or confiscate bikes when they do this.

Make lights and reflective stuff a legal requirent.
With fines and confiscations for not doing it.


Either ban cycle races on open roads - or legislate some laws around riding two/three abreast, riding in packs or having too many competitors on one road.
Include real penalties and fines.
This is probably one of the top 3 reasons why cyclists and motorists don't get along.


I'd actually like to see cycles being treated much like mopeds on the road. But I doubt that'll happen.

[barwea]

Polynesian said:

I love cycling in London, but I see a lot more idiots these days, taking risks and in a real them and us. Drivers typically just as bad. At the end of the day we are all much the same, and trying to get home/ to work/ to pick up the kids/ deliver a package and the danger is in starting to see the others as "them"- I'm on a bike so cars are full of w*nkers, I'm in a car so cyclists are all w*nkers. You can't put policemen at junctions to fix that.

We've all got somewhere to be and probably all got someone who cares whether we get there.

I wish this could have been the last post on the matter.

[will_]

Snowboy said:

One obvious problem, with no obvious solution, is that car drivers are accountable for thier actions, but cyclists (generally) aren't.

Why not make all people accountable?

Motorists face a higher regulatory burden because they pose the greatest risk on the roads.

Peds face the lowest because they pose the lowest risk.

Cyclists are far closer to pedestrians in terms of risk than motorists. Hence face more regulation, but nowhere near as much as motorists.

Ergo, the status quo is perfectly sufficient in terms of regulation. More enforcement (of all offences) would be preferable, but to do so properly requires coppers and not cameras. There is already sufficient legislation and there is no legitimate argument that is persuasive, on balance, to massively increase the regulatory burden on cyclists when they pose such little risk, particularly when you consider the positive benefits of cycling (to everyone) which would be undermined by such a burden. And hence it will never happen, because it's inpractical and non-sensical.

[IroningMan]

Snowboy said:

One obvious problem, with no obvious solution, is that car drivers are accountable for thier actions, but cyclists (generally) aren't.

Traffic cameras and cctv can't ID cyclists.
A motorist or pedestrian can't report a cyclists number plate.
There is no cycling licence to gain points.

Ditto pedestrians - time for them to be licenced, too.

Snowboy said:

I think a few changes to road law are needed.
I think one solution would be to ban left filtering on junctions without cycle lanes.
Fine riders or confiscate bikes when they do this.

Left filtering in which lane?

Snowboy said:

Make lights and reflective stuff a legal requirent.
With fines and confiscations for not doing it.

Sounds like a plan - enforcement is a challenge, but then it is for misaligned headlights and bald tyres on cars.

Snowboy said:

Either ban cycle races on open roads - or legislate some laws around riding two/three abreast, riding in packs or having too many competitors on one road.
Include real penalties and fines.
This is probably one of the top 3 reasons why cyclists and motorists don't get along.

Racing is banned. Special permission is needed, which is why we have a strong time-trialling tradition in the UK, as time-trials aren't races.

Overtaking a short, wide bunch of 6 cyclists riding two abreast is easier than passing the same 6 cyclists strung-out in a line: if there's something coming the other way then you shouldn't be overtaking in either case.

Snowboy said:

I'd actually like to see cycles being treated much like mopeds on the road. But I doubt that'll happen.

What effect do you thing that would have on cycle use and, therefore, on traffic congestion?

[Mave]

Snowboy said:

One obvious problem, with no obvious solution, is that car drivers are accountable for thier actions, but cyclists (generally) aren't.

I disagree. Everyone is accountable for their actions, but there is very little punishment of anyone, whether in a car or on a bike, for either illegal or dangerous actions. Cars are licensed and go through red lights. Cycles aren't licensed and go through red lights. Cars are licensed and perform dangerous overtakes. Cycles aren't licensed and perform dangerous undertakes. What do you think licensing will actually achieve?

[J4CKO]

Snowboy said:

One obvious problem, with no obvious solution, is that car drivers are accountable for thier actions, but cyclists (generally) aren't.

Traffic cameras and cctv can't ID cyclists.
A motorist or pedestrian can't report a cyclists number plate.
There is no cycling licence to gain points.

I think a few changes to road law are needed.
I think one solution would be to ban left filtering on junctions without cycle lanes.
Fine riders or confiscate bikes when they do this.

Make lights and reflective stuff a legal requirent.
With fines and confiscations for not doing it.


Either ban cycle races on open roads - or legislate some laws around riding two/three abreast, riding in packs or having too many competitors on one road.
Include real penalties and fines.
This is probably one of the top 3 reasons why cyclists and motorists don't get along.


I'd actually like to see cycles being treated much like mopeds on the road. But I doubt that'll happen.

Lights already are a requirement.


I want to know how many car drivers are habing their lives ruined by cyclists ?

It is the odd delay, usually short and occasionally, and annoyingly getting stuck behind huge groups, I ride daily and that pisses me off though I accept I will encounter delays in any given kjourney, most of my delays are cars, trucks and buses, not bikes, horses or pedestrians, I have seen a chap I know getting apoplectic due to a group of sunday riders who held him up for a minute or so, then all pulled in and waved him through, he didnt bat an eyelid at being sat for ten minutes behind a queue of other cars, bizarre.

I hear a lot of what if a cyclist damages my P and J but cant recollect much in the way of actual occurances, so largely hypothetical.

All this red light running, are drivers dodging cyclists or are you just pissed off because you cant do it, I personally dont do it as I dont think it reflects well and it does annoy people but I see it fairly often when driving or riding due to people knowing there is no camera, I stood at a ped crossing the other day and four cars went through despite me stood there.

So, ask yourself, are cyclists really the bane of your life or just another thing to moan about, is your bottom lip really going because you got stuck behind someone on a bike.

Its is never going to get reams of legislation, bikes with number plates ffs, with a car you take on
a bigger responsibility (a lot dont seem to realise) proportional to the danger it presents to others and it is legislated accordingly.

There is nothign stopping anyone getting a bike, digging your heels in an moaning, so firmly in the driver camp means you may be missing out of a very enjoyable pastime and a brilliant mode of transport for certain tasks.

[WinstonWolf]

rambo19 said:

oyster said:

I notice rambo19 hasn't yet answered the pertinent question about cars breaking the law. But I suspect he doesn't think 31 in a 30 is actually illegal. So his argument is therefore irrelevant.

Give me a chance!!!!

Yes, I see car drivers breaking the law everyday, mobile phone use being the worst.

If we sat at a set off traffic lights for an hour, and 100 cars past through and 100 cyclists, IME, 99% of the motorists would obey the traffic lights, however, the vast majority of cyclists would dis obey the lights.

The problem is with cyclists running red lights is not only do they put themselves in danger, the also put other road users in danger.
I would be interested to know the figures as far as prosecutions go;
Of the amount of cyclists who died as a result of RTC's, how many of the drivers were charged?

I'm fed up with cyclists blaming everyone else for thier problems, they MUST take responsibilty for thier actions.
If a car driver is involved in a RTC with a cyclist, and it's the car drivers fault, they can, and should be charged.
But, and heres the but again, if the cyclist is found at fault, they should be charged.

IME, it's got to the stage now that cyclists think they can do whatever they want on the road.

The other night i'm driving along a dark road in my bus, in front of me was a BMW estate police car(traffic, I assume).
We came up behind a man on a bike with no lights and dressed in dark clothing, but the police drover straight past him!!
I would of liked the police to of stopped him, issued a FPN and let his tyres down so he has to push the bike home.
99% of commercial vehciles now have all the latest mirrors, some have audiable indicator buzzers and all drivers who drive for a living MUST do CPC.
But what do cyclists have to do?, nothing.

And on the approach to these hypothetical traffic lights I would expect 99% of the drivers to be SPEEDING AND KILLING CHILDREN with their cancerous fumes....

[fangio]

Not many, then?

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/cyclists-fil...