RE: Mini Electric is here!

[Jon_S_Rally]

MrGTI6 said:

Surely it shouldn't be misleading to anyone. If you take into account the deposit, it actually averages out at approximately £382 per month. That's a huge difference.

But they have printed it in the same way as virtually every other finance/PCH/PCP deal is printed? Unless it says "ZERO DEPOSIT!!!!!!" in massive letters, it'a fairly blinkin' obvious that there's going to be a deposit. They use the headline monthly amount to grab attention, then you read the small print. This is nothing out of the ordinary in the slightest.

dobly said:

They are supposed to look like UK 3-pin plugs...

That may be, but they look terrible

[Bispal]

I have looked into buying an electric car and I have concluded they are a sales and marketing gimmick, they do not save the planet! According to the Guardian (quoting an EU gov. study) the average electric car is responsible for emitting 8.8 tonnes of CO2 during its production compared to 5.6 tonnes in a petrol car. That's just to make the car.

An average petrol car now produces 125g/km of CO2 and that includes the CO2 emitted getting the oil from the ground, refined and to the petrol station. An electric car uses 57g/km if the electricity used is an EU mix (part fossil fuel / nuclear / renewables) That rises to 91g/km if the electricity is 100% generated from fossil fuels.

If we compare EU mix, at 57g/km, to petrol, an electric car would need to travel 130,000 kms / 80,000 miles to recover the CO2 used in the production of it and its batteries. In the UK the average car travels 8,000 miles per year, That's 10 years to recoup the initial additional CO2 required to build an electric car. That's if you replace a perfectly good petrol car with an electric car. If you don't have a car and choose electric then that comes down to 4 years and it begins to look a bit more attractive.

However the average UK car owner changes car every 2 years! This is probably due to finance deals. This means the electric car will never be as environmentally kind to the environment as a petrol car as the batteries are usually kaput before 10 years anyway (look at the Nissan Leaf) so even in their life cycle they will only just manage to recoup their initial losses. Additionally the average age of a car in the UK is 8 years old.

I appreciate this is a transitional period and that in 20 years time hopefully most electricity will be renewable and the battery tech improved but I cant help thinking another fuel source would be better like hydrogen fuel cell. I don't know why battery tech is being pushed so hard when there is no real benefit other than the CO2 they emit is somewhere else and not on our doorstep so is not our problem......Typical Nimby attitude.....

Edited by Bispal on Thursday 11th July 09:08

[Herbs]

Bispal said:

I have looked into buying an electric car and I have concluded they are a sales and marketing gimmick, they do not save the planet! According to the Guardian (quoting an EU gov. study) the average electric car is responsible for emitting 8.8 tonnes of CO2 during its production compared to 5.6 tonnes in a petrol car. That's just to make the car.

An average petrol car now produces 125g/km of CO2 and that includes the CO2 emitted getting the oil from the ground, refined and to the petrol station. An electric car uses 57g/km if the electricity used is an EU mix (part fossil fuel / nuclear / renewables) That rises to 91g/km if the electricity is 100% generated from fossil fuels.

If we compare EU mix, at 57g/km, to petrol, an electric car would need to travel 130,000 kms / 80,000 miles to recover the CO2 used in the production of it and its batteries. In the UK the average car travels 8,000 miles per year, That's 10 years to recoup the initial additional CO2 required to build an electric car. That's if you replace a perfectly good petrol car with an electric car. If you don't have a car and choose electric then that comes down to 4 years and it begins to look a bit more attractive.

However the average UK car owner changes car every 2 years! This is probably due to finance deals. This means the electric car will never be as environmentally kind to the environment as a petrol car as the batteries are usually kaput before 10 years anyway (look at the Nissan Leaf) so even in their life cycle they will only just manage to recoup their initial losses. Additionally the average age of a car in the UK is 8 years old.

I appreciate this is a transitional period and that in 20 years time hopefully most electricity will be renewable and the battery tech improved but I cant help thinking another fuel source would be better like hydrogen fuel cell. I don't know why battery tech is being pushed so hard when there is no real benefit other than the CO2 they emit is somewhere else and not on our doorstep so is not our problem......Typical Nimby attitude.....

Edited by Bispal on Thursday 11th July 09:08

I take your polarised "facts" and match them the other way

https://ecotricity.co.nz/cradle-to-grave-emissions...

[Dave Hedgehog]

Bispal said:

However the average UK car owner changes car every 2 years! This is probably due to finance deals. This means the electric car will never be as environmentally kind to the environment as a petrol car as the batteries are usually kaput before 10 years anyway (look at the Nissan Leaf) so even in their life cycle they will only just manage to recoup their initial losses. Additionally the average age of a car in the UK is 8 years old.

you need cars to be changed out every 2-3 years if not 2nd, 3rd and 4th owners will never get any stock, this would happen anyway regardless of fuel type

plenty of evidence of battery packs going 500k+ miles way beyond the avg life of a car, the software is hugely better at keeping the packs healthy now, and the old packs can also be re-purposed to act as energy stores to compensate output fluctuations in renewable energy

so the battery's only last 10 years but cars only last 8 years on average = ZERO ISSUE

there are also plenty of studies showing that in countries with 50% 0 carbon energy (UK) the production of the car is offset in under 2 years

Hydrogen has been debunked so many times, the only people pushing it are the oil companies, for some reason they like the idea of a replacement fuel system that needs huge production 'refineries' and massive fleets of tankers to distribute it. Here's a hint, no one is making hydrogen cars, all the car manufactures are scaling up to make EVs by the millions

EVs have been proven as viable for many drivers, and even if only 50% move over to them (and it will be more because fossil fuel cars are going to be legislated into oblivion) that's still a massive reduction in the use of oil, a resource that is running out very quickly and can cause huge amounts of environmental damage if its extraction goes wrong

[bodhi]

Dave Hedgehog said:

you need cars to be changed out every 2-3 years if not 2nd, 3rd and 4th owners will never get any stock, this would happen anyway regardless of fuel type

plenty of evidence of battery packs going 500k+ miles way beyond the avg life of a car, the software is hugely better at keeping the packs healthy now, and the old packs can also be re-purposed to act as energy stores to compensate output fluctuations in renewable energy

so the battery's only last 10 years but cars only last 8 years on average = ZERO ISSUE

there are also plenty of studies showing that in countries with 50% 0 carbon energy (UK) the production of the car is offset in under 2 years

Hydrogen has been debunked so many times, the only people pushing it are the oil companies, for some reason they like the idea of a replacement fuel system that needs huge production 'refineries' and massive fleets of tankers to distribute it. Here's a hint, no one is making hydrogen cars, all the car manufactures are scaling up to make EVs by the millions

EVs have been proven as viable for many drivers, and even if only 50% move over to them (and it will be more because fossil fuel cars are going to be legislated into oblivion) that's still a massive reduction in the use of oil, a resource that is running out very quickly and can cause huge amounts of environmental damage if its extraction goes wrong

https://www.scmp.com/business/markets/article/3017470/when-chinas-father-evs-starts-talking-hydrogen-vehicles-analysts

Looks like it's more than the oil companies talking it up - if China goes all in on Hydrogen, I would expect the rest of us to follow suit sharpish.

[Daaaveee]

jason61c said:

they should have said £299 a month based on a 15 month deposit.

you'd be bonkers to go for it.

how much would the average charge cost? i'd bet a normal mini lease on 5k per year would cost less overall.

Depends where you charge.

32.6kWh battery so from completely flat (unlikely you'll ever charge from that):

Using Octopus Go off peak 5p/kWh = £1.63

Using a normal electric rate 15p/kWh = £4.89

Using the most expensive public rapid 39p/kWh = £12.71


Most usage is going to be from home charging and topped up overnight so your usual fuel cost is going to cost about 1.25p per mile based on 130 mile range.

Compared to an automatic petrol Cooper, being generous and assuming you can get the advertised 55.4mpg, based on todays price at the Asda next to me of 123.7p, it will cost you 10.22p per mile.

So UK average around 8000 miles a year the fuel costs will be:

Mini Electric = £100
Mini Petrol = £817.60

So about £60 a month in fuel cost saved.

Of course the chances are you won't be getting 55.4mpg out of the petrol one, and you might not always charge overnight, but it gives a decent idea.

[oilit]

Herbs said:

Bispal said:

I have looked into buying an electric car and I have concluded they are a sales and marketing gimmick, they do not save the planet! According to the Guardian (quoting an EU gov. study) the average electric car is responsible for emitting 8.8 tonnes of CO2 during its production compared to 5.6 tonnes in a petrol car. That's just to make the car.

An average petrol car now produces 125g/km of CO2 and that includes the CO2 emitted getting the oil from the ground, refined and to the petrol station. An electric car uses 57g/km if the electricity used is an EU mix (part fossil fuel / nuclear / renewables) That rises to 91g/km if the electricity is 100% generated from fossil fuels.

If we compare EU mix, at 57g/km, to petrol, an electric car would need to travel 130,000 kms / 80,000 miles to recover the CO2 used in the production of it and its batteries. In the UK the average car travels 8,000 miles per year, That's 10 years to recoup the initial additional CO2 required to build an electric car. That's if you replace a perfectly good petrol car with an electric car. If you don't have a car and choose electric then that comes down to 4 years and it begins to look a bit more attractive.

However the average UK car owner changes car every 2 years! This is probably due to finance deals. This means the electric car will never be as environmentally kind to the environment as a petrol car as the batteries are usually kaput before 10 years anyway (look at the Nissan Leaf) so even in their life cycle they will only just manage to recoup their initial losses. Additionally the average age of a car in the UK is 8 years old.

I appreciate this is a transitional period and that in 20 years time hopefully most electricity will be renewable and the battery tech improved but I cant help thinking another fuel source would be better like hydrogen fuel cell. I don't know why battery tech is being pushed so hard when there is no real benefit other than the CO2 they emit is somewhere else and not on our doorstep so is not our problem......Typical Nimby attitude.....

Edited by Bispal on Thursday 11th July 09:08

I take your polarised "facts" and match them the other way

https://ecotricity.co.nz/cradle-to-grave-emissions...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQpX-9OyEr4

[Herbs]

Exactly.

[J4CKO]

Bispal said:

I have looked into buying an electric car and I have concluded they are a sales and marketing gimmick, they do not save the planet! According to the Guardian (quoting an EU gov. study) the average electric car is responsible for emitting 8.8 tonnes of CO2 during its production compared to 5.6 tonnes in a petrol car. That's just to make the car.

An average petrol car now produces 125g/km of CO2 and that includes the CO2 emitted getting the oil from the ground, refined and to the petrol station. An electric car uses 57g/km if the electricity used is an EU mix (part fossil fuel / nuclear / renewables) That rises to 91g/km if the electricity is 100% generated from fossil fuels.

If we compare EU mix, at 57g/km, to petrol, an electric car would need to travel 130,000 kms / 80,000 miles to recover the CO2 used in the production of it and its batteries. In the UK the average car travels 8,000 miles per year, That's 10 years to recoup the initial additional CO2 required to build an electric car. That's if you replace a perfectly good petrol car with an electric car. If you don't have a car and choose electric then that comes down to 4 years and it begins to look a bit more attractive.

However the average UK car owner changes car every 2 years! This is probably due to finance deals. This means the electric car will never be as environmentally kind to the environment as a petrol car as the batteries are usually kaput before 10 years anyway (look at the Nissan Leaf) so even in their life cycle they will only just manage to recoup their initial losses. Additionally the average age of a car in the UK is 8 years old.

I appreciate this is a transitional period and that in 20 years time hopefully most electricity will be renewable and the battery tech improved but I cant help thinking another fuel source would be better like hydrogen fuel cell. I don't know why battery tech is being pushed so hard when there is no real benefit other than the CO2 they emit is somewhere else and not on our doorstep so is not our problem......Typical Nimby attitude.....

Edited by Bispal on Thursday 11th July 09:08

Its not Nimbyism though is it, air quality in cities is poor and a lot of that is tailpipe emissions from transport.

It moves the pollution, but unlike fossil fuels, electricity can be generated from other sources, I know there is bio diesel but that never really made many inroads and still relies on a diesel engine producing fumes at street level.

I mentioned yesterday, EV's using solar cells on their roofs to charge, to me that is the most elegant solution, potentially for a low mileage user in sunnier climes most of their mileage could be entirely generated by the car itself but because it wont work for everyone in every situation it gets dismissed.

As battery and EV improves I would expect to see the comparison skewing more the other way in favour of EV's, batteries based on stuff that doesnt need as much mining, lighter batteries and lighter cars, recyling and reconditioning of battery packs.

I dont think EV's are the answer to everything and necessarily the greenest option but folk seem keen on driving and not so much walking or cycling so as a way forward I cant see another option, the IC vehcile isnt really progressing now, bit better on fuel but all the development has been done, there doesnt seem to be much more efficiency to gain so it has to be an electric motor, which is perfect, apart from the energy storage, which is being worked on.

[Justin Case]

The new v secondhand choice is already here even if you restrict it to EVs A local nissan dealer is selling a two-year old 30 kw Leaf (Tekna) with 21k miles and balance of the Nissan Warranty. The price by a strange co-incidence is £17k, the same as the Mini PCP, but at the end of four years you have a car with(hopefully) plenty of life left in it instead of nothing. I am also sure that in the next few years battery prices will come down / rebuilt ones will become widely available, reducing the risk of the car eventually becoming worthless.

I don't think that you will find it difficult to work out what my choice would be when it is time to change the Toyota..

[Court_S]

Daaaveee said:

Depends where you charge.

32.6kWh battery so from completely flat (unlikely you'll ever charge from that):

Using Octopus Go off peak 5p/kWh = £1.63

Using a normal electric rate 15p/kWh = £4.89

Using the most expensive public rapid 39p/kWh = £12.71


Most usage is going to be from home charging and topped up overnight so your usual fuel cost is going to cost about 1.25p per mile based on 130 mile range.

Compared to an automatic petrol Cooper, being generous and assuming you can get the advertised 55.4mpg, based on todays price at the Asda next to me of 123.7p, it will cost you 10.22p per mile.

So UK average around 8000 miles a year the fuel costs will be:

Mini Electric = £100
Mini Petrol = £817.60

So about £60 a month in fuel cost saved.

Of course the chances are you won't be getting 55.4mpg out of the petrol one, and you might not always charge overnight, but it gives a decent idea.

Having owned an F46 Cooper, you won’t get anywhere near 50 odd mpg. We averaged 40.4 over three years. Lots of shortish journeys but even doing long runs didn’t really bump it up much. This makes the fuel gap even larger.

[Deep Thought]

Justin Case said:

The new v secondhand choice is already here even if you restrict it to EVs A local nissan dealer is selling a two-year old 30 kw Leaf (Tekna) with 21k miles and balance of the Nissan Warranty. The price by a strange co-incidence is £17k, the same as the Mini PCP, but at the end of four years you have a car with(hopefully) plenty of life left in it instead of nothing. I am also sure that in the next few years battery prices will come down / rebuilt ones will become widely available, reducing the risk of the car eventually becoming worthless.

I don't think that you will find it difficult to work out what my choice would be when it is time to change the Toyota..

Which is fine if you're simply looking for white goods dull and boring transport.

I see this MINI as an opportunity to inject some FUN in to EVs - something that has been sorely lacking IMHO - certainly at this price point anyway.

Plus it looks relatively normal, another trait lacking in the Leaf, Prius, i3, etc.

Also dont forget you dont "have" to lease a MINI E, you can buy one outright. Yes, it costs more but maybe that will be worth it - like spending more on a Fiesta ST or Cooper S gets you more than buying a Nissan Micra.

Edited by Deep Thought on Thursday 11th July 15:22

Edited by Deep Thought on Thursday 11th July 16:00

[Daaaveee]

Indeed, I don't think many people wanting a new electric Mini will be considering a used Leaf either...

[Jon_S_Rally]

Dave Hedgehog said:

Here's a hint, no one is making hydrogen cars, all the car manufactures are scaling up to make EVs by the millions

Hyundai are still making a Hydrogen car I believe?

[PistonBroker]

nuttywobbler said:

It's not £299 per month though, is it?

£4000 up front plus £299 per month (and that's for the base model!) for a car which will probably struggle to do 100 miles on a charge. No thanks!

Yes, I came into the article really rather excited as that sounded like a great deal. I guess we could sell our ICE MINI for about £4k so maybe the numbers do still stack up. But that's a chunky old deposit for something you'll be handing back at the end.

In answer to PH's question, yes it is something I could see myself running. The office is 1.5 miles from home - we really should cycle or walk but end up jumping into the car more often than we should.

Our diesel Disco Sport has objected to that treatment by terminally filling its DPF with soot twice now, so we run the MINI for the short journeys instead. Running into the office on electric certainly appeals.

The Honda's a good-looking thing. Wonder what the deals on that will be?

[Nik Gnashers]

Court_S said:

Nik Gnashers said:

City Car LOLOL

New MINI's are fookin huge. I'll bet the Hyundai Kona is roughly the same size.
Why should any car be limited in range and need charging more often. If you only use an EV for 30 miles a day, then one charge of a Kona will last a lot longer and as such be more energy efficient.
Are you a bit stupid or something ?

What difference does it make if it needs charging more (assuming that you have a charging point at home)? It’s not exactly a faff. Plus being plugged in means that you can pre-heat / cool the car score you drive off and not impact on your range. You may not actually like or even want a Hyundai Kona.

There’s also the slight issue of no more orders being taken for the Kona in 2019.

It also brings more choice, and surely that’s a good thing?

Are you a bit dim or something?

Edited by Court_S on Wednesday 10th July 20:57

If you need to charge your phone every night, unlike me who charges it once every 6 days, then you are using a lot more energy. This is the whole point of energy efficient electric vehicles.
It might be a huge faff if you don't have a high capacity charging point at your house, and 1 or 2 other vehicles to move around in order to get your electric vehicle close enough to the house for the extension lead to reach.
More choice is a good thing, that was not my point. My point was, this MINI is way behind in technology and efficiency.
You are the dim one, because you can't seem to comprehend the points I have made and form any sort of counter argument, dimwit.

[Nik Gnashers]

Deep Thought said:

Nik Gnashers said:

City Car LOLOL

New MINI's are fookin huge. I'll bet the Hyundai Kona is roughly the same size.
Why should any car be limited in range and need charging more often. If you only use an EV for 30 miles a day, then one charge of a Kona will last a lot longer and as such be more energy efficient.
Are you a bit stupid or something ?

They're not huge. Its significantly smaller than a fiesta and almost 40 cm shorter than the Kona.

Most cars are that size spend their time around towns and cities.

Are you a bit stupid or something?

If i'd an electric car, i'd - like my phone - plug it in and charge it every night. No particular hassle in doing so.

A MINI is not 'significantly smaller than a Fiesta ffs, it's significantly smaller than a Range Rover though.
40cm is fk all, you're clutching at straws now.
If you charge your phone every night, and your car too, then my phone which I charge every 6 days is much more energy efficient than yours, and I'd like a car that is the same too. If you haven't got a high capacity charging point at your house, and not many of us have, then trying to reach your car with an extension cable IS a hassle, What happens if you don't have a driveway, how are you going to charge it then ?
You haven't really thought this through have you, stupid.........

[Deep Thought]

Nik Gnashers said:

A MINI is not 'significantly smaller than a Fiesta ffs, it's significantly smaller than a Range Rover though.
40cm is fk all, you're clutching at straws now.
If you charge your phone every night, and your car too, then my phone which I charge every 6 days is much more energy efficient than yours, and I'd like a car that is the same too. If you haven't got a high capacity charging point at your house, and not many of us have, then trying to reach your car with an extension cable IS a hassle, What happens if you don't have a driveway, how are you going to charge it then ?
You haven't really thought this through have you, stupid.........

Awww! Bless your little cotton socks!

Another little Snowflake who thinks the world revolves around them and their specific needs!

My phone is used for work and leisure purposes and i use about 60% of its charge every day. Some days 75%. I simply plug it in beside my bed every night and its ready to go the following morning again. If i'd an electric car i'd do the same. Full charge daily. No issues. Doing that doesnt mean its less efficient by the way....

Again i'd have no issues putting a high capacity charging point in one of our garages, and plug the car in when its parked. Not an issue. Simple actually.

Sorry your personal circumstances cant make an electric car like this work. Heres a thought - maybe its not for you?

Edited by Deep Thought on Thursday 11th July 22:31

Edited by Deep Thought on Thursday 11th July 22:39

[dobly]

Jon_S_Rally said:

That may be, but they look terrible

Especially as all the press photos don't have the "plug" lined up in the orientation that we are used to seeing a plug/socket...

[Deep Thought]

Nik Gnashers said:

You haven't really thought this through have you, stupid.........

Yeah lets see how many they sell of these and how long the waiting lists are and then we'll come back and check which one of us hasnt thought it through eh?

Because i suspect maybe BMW know a lot more about this cars target market than you do.