RE: All-electric Caterham Seven promised
Discussion
ddom said:
Max_Torque said:
Given that driving a Caterham for say 80miles is pretty hardcore, and that requires about 20kWH of batteries, i see no reason this EV Caterham can't be reasonably lightweight. No, not Caterham Hayabusa light, but not exactly a heavy weight.
You don't half talk a lot of crap! 80 miles, FFS, we used to go out for 150 miles on a Sunday morning for breakfast. most, if not all with aeroscreens. This thread is filled with the sort of wimpy lily-livered tin top drivers who s
t themselves at the sight of anything more intimidating than a warm, dry golf course 
And no. The point of the 7 is not huge torque, it's how playful it is. it'll add at least 100-150kg as the chassis will have to be braced all over the place, in fact it might even completely change the kerb weight.
It'll also be devoid of the personality of a 7. But nobody on PH seems to really be bothered about this basic fact. 80 miles
BertBert said:
AnotherClarkey said:
I rather hope that they can come up with an wonderful handling, efficient, lightweight, reasonably cheap open car with satisfying punch but not mental performance.
Rather contentiously I wonder if the best layout might have a very concentrated drivetrain/battery mass and electric motors driving each front wheel. FWD would provide the best regen and torque vectoring could be used to provide exceptional turn in and pointiness.
Whilst people are struggling to contemplate electric instead of petrol in a caterham and I'm ok with it. But FWD? I hope you didn't wonder about it for long! Rather contentiously I wonder if the best layout might have a very concentrated drivetrain/battery mass and electric motors driving each front wheel. FWD would provide the best regen and torque vectoring could be used to provide exceptional turn in and pointiness.
With regard to the shape of the Seven, one would have to ask why many other small volume manufacturers, who could have produced a car of `any' shape, nevertheless chose to copy the Lotus 7 for all their offerings? Given the number of lookalikes, It seems that the seven shape was the thing that a lot of buyers out there were actually looking for.,
Pan Pan Pan said:
With regard to the shape of the Seven, one would have to ask why many other small volume manufacturers, who could have produced a car of `any' shape, nevertheless chose to copy the Lotus 7 for all their offerings? Given the number of lookalikes, It seems that the seven shape was the thing that a lot of buyers out there were actually looking for.,
You can say that again. rscott said:
apexeater said:
With today’s battery tech and HV charging and management electronics it will be significantly heavier than today’s ICE variant and, due to the nature of the beast, will have a limited range unless you are cruising around.
So to start with it will be compromised, but like it has been said in the thread, you need to start somewhere, and the future is EV if you like it or not, so go for it Caterham and hang on until we have lighter more energy dense batteries that have high speed charging so you can top-up in-between your track sessions
It'll add maybe 80kg to the weight, so about the same as the average passenger. So to start with it will be compromised, but like it has been said in the thread, you need to start somewhere, and the future is EV if you like it or not, so go for it Caterham and hang on until we have lighter more energy dense batteries that have high speed charging so you can top-up in-between your track sessions
Edited by apexeater on Saturday 15th May 08:47
Pan Pan Pan said:
With regard to the shape of the Seven, one would have to ask why many other small volume manufacturers, who could have produced a car of `any' shape, nevertheless chose to copy the Lotus 7 for all their offerings? Given the number of lookalikes, It seems that the seven shape was the thing that a lot of buyers out there were actually looking for.,
Because it’s cheap? Straight panels bolted to the chassis, then some wheel covers? There’s also the XI which I always thought was a lovely looking car. Caterham tried with the 21.
ddom said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
With regard to the shape of the Seven, one would have to ask why many other small volume manufacturers, who could have produced a car of `any' shape, nevertheless chose to copy the Lotus 7 for all their offerings? Given the number of lookalikes, It seems that the seven shape was the thing that a lot of buyers out there were actually looking for.,
Because it’s cheap? Straight panels bolted to the chassis, then some wheel covers? There’s also the XI which I always thought was a lovely looking car. Caterham tried with the 21.
Pan Pan Pan said:
rscott said:
apexeater said:
With today’s battery tech and HV charging and management electronics it will be significantly heavier than today’s ICE variant and, due to the nature of the beast, will have a limited range unless you are cruising around.
So to start with it will be compromised, but like it has been said in the thread, you need to start somewhere, and the future is EV if you like it or not, so go for it Caterham and hang on until we have lighter more energy dense batteries that have high speed charging so you can top-up in-between your track sessions
It'll add maybe 80kg to the weight, so about the same as the average passenger. So to start with it will be compromised, but like it has been said in the thread, you need to start somewhere, and the future is EV if you like it or not, so go for it Caterham and hang on until we have lighter more energy dense batteries that have high speed charging so you can top-up in-between your track sessions
Edited by apexeater on Saturday 15th May 08:47
rscott said:
Pan Pan Pan said:
rscott said:
apexeater said:
With today’s battery tech and HV charging and management electronics it will be significantly heavier than today’s ICE variant and, due to the nature of the beast, will have a limited range unless you are cruising around.
So to start with it will be compromised, but like it has been said in the thread, you need to start somewhere, and the future is EV if you like it or not, so go for it Caterham and hang on until we have lighter more energy dense batteries that have high speed charging so you can top-up in-between your track sessions
It'll add maybe 80kg to the weight, so about the same as the average passenger. So to start with it will be compromised, but like it has been said in the thread, you need to start somewhere, and the future is EV if you like it or not, so go for it Caterham and hang on until we have lighter more energy dense batteries that have high speed charging so you can top-up in-between your track sessions
Edited by apexeater on Saturday 15th May 08:47
As for range `any' vehicle that does not provide a half decent range, is going to be about as useful as a one legged man, in an a*se kicking contest.
SidewaysSi said:
Indeed. Seems a bit off - I did London to the 'Ring and back in 48 hours aeroscreened. If I had an EV Seven I would have taken many days longer and it would have cost a load more - extra would needed to have been spent on hotels, drinks and hookers.
I once hired a Caterham from a place in Perth. The recommended route even for first timers was Perth to Tomintoul which is 81 miles each way. Realistically it's going to need a 200 mile range, so just how much weight is that going to add!?Olivera said:
SidewaysSi said:
Indeed. Seems a bit off - I did London to the 'Ring and back in 48 hours aeroscreened. If I had an EV Seven I would have taken many days longer and it would have cost a load more - extra would needed to have been spent on hotels, drinks and hookers.
I once hired a Caterham from a place in Perth. The recommended route even for first timers was Perth to Tomintoul which is 81 miles each way. Realistically it's going to need a 200 mile range, so just how much weight is that going to add!?
SidewaysSi said:
Indeed. Seems a bit off - I did London to the 'Ring and back in 48 hours aeroscreened.
But you did it only once, right? Similarly I've done about 900 miles over a long weekend there and back.
Yes, at the moment that sort of trip can't be replicated in an EV. But that sort of trip is a small minority of the total trips done by Caterhams.
ddom said:
... it'll add at least 100-150kg as the chassis will have to be braced all over the place, in fact it might even completely change the kerb weight.
On the subject of chassis bracing - I think someone mentioned earlier that with the motor(s) at the rear axle, there's a lot less torsional twist that you get with an ICE car, where the motor + prop + rear axle are all trying to twist the chassis longitudinally.I know it's going to be an over simplification, but it sounds as if batteries where the engine and gearbox were, and motor etc at the rear axle, could deliver a something vaguely similar to today's caterhams in terms of dynamics and not too massive a weight penalty.
SidewaysSi said:
ddom said:
Max_Torque said:
Given that driving a Caterham for say 80miles is pretty hardcore, and that requires about 20kWH of batteries, i see no reason this EV Caterham can't be reasonably lightweight. No, not Caterham Hayabusa light, but not exactly a heavy weight.
You don't half talk a lot of crap! 80 miles, FFS, we used to go out for 150 miles on a Sunday morning for breakfast. most, if not all with aeroscreens. This thread is filled with the sort of wimpy lily-livered tin top drivers who st themselves at the sight of anything more intimidating than a warm, dry golf course And no. The point of the 7 is not huge torque, it's how playful it is. it'll add at least 100-150kg as the chassis will have to be braced all over the place, in fact it might even completely change the kerb weight.
It'll also be devoid of the personality of a 7. But nobody on PH seems to really be bothered about this basic fact. 80 miles
The point is not that nobody drives a Caterham long distances, but that most people do not drive them long distances.
For example, there is no reason you can't tow a caravan with a Caterham, and i bet someone has, but you'll not come across many 7's with caravans behind them!
A caterham is not a Tesla Model 3. They are mostly weekend toys, that do few miles (go on, check the average mileage of the Caterhams for sale in the PH classifieds and divide by there age, they do tiny mileages).
As the Charging network improves, which it is doing at an exponetial rate, a small battery simply means short distances between stops to recharge, again, in a car like that, after 2 hours driving, you'll probably want (note: probably, not must, for those people who drive non-stop to the south of france to get a pint of milk) to stop and stretch out for 15 min. And because the battery is small, the charge times are short! (remember journey charging time is not much to do with the size of the battery fitted, but actually more to do with the average charging rating of the charger, a 50kW charger charges at about 200 mph for example)
And as Caterhams aren't cars that do 100,000 miles in 5 years unlike insignia diesels driven by photocopier salesmen, i'm sure Caterham can go pretty hard on the battery charge rate at the cost of life time. For example, the typical 100,000 mile battery warranty on more mainstream EV is never likely to become much of a problem for a car that does about 2,000 miles a year.
And of course, battery size and mass is tumbling all the time even with existing battery tech (rather than any breakthrough tech) thanks to better packaging and optimisation of the battery architecture. Take my bmw i3, released with a 22kWg (gross) battery in 2013, it now has 42 kWh in exactly the same space and mass. That means a caterham with 22 kWh could using current tech/packaging have a battery of around 140kg mass.
And with a bit more volts (i3 is old tech now and is still down at 380v nominal, considered low these days) i bet you could knock another 20 kg off that without too much trouble
So lets immagine that, a Caterham that weighs about 60 to 80kg more than it currently does, that'll do say 80 to 100 miles, and that can charge back up in about 15 min.
Doesn't sound too bad to me :-)
Vickers_VC10 said:
80-100 miles flat out or does that drop to 15-20 miles?
I challange you to drive in the Uk for 80 miles "flat out" in a caterham without either crashing or being arrested! It's simply just not realistic .More likely you'll be squirting hard out of 30 mph zones, up to say 80 or 100, for a shortish distance. Ok, if you live in the highlands of scotland you'll be able to use more of the performance more of the time, but for the other 99% of Caterham owners, it's not going to be too much of a problem.
Realistic EV consumptions range between 3 and 4 miles per kWh for road driven cars, and thanks to regen, driving hard doesn't make that much difference as long as you use the regen, ie not so hard you need to use the fritcion brakes. A Caterham has a terrible drag co-efficient, but it also has a tiny frontal area, so overall, at normal road speeds, it'll do just fine!
Max_Torque said:
SidewaysSi said:
ddom said:
Max_Torque said:
Given that driving a Caterham for say 80miles is pretty hardcore, and that requires about 20kWH of batteries, i see no reason this EV Caterham can't be reasonably lightweight. No, not Caterham Hayabusa light, but not exactly a heavy weight.
You don't half talk a lot of crap! 80 miles, FFS, we used to go out for 150 miles on a Sunday morning for breakfast. most, if not all with aeroscreens. This thread is filled with the sort of wimpy lily-livered tin top drivers who st themselves at the sight of anything more intimidating than a warm, dry golf course And no. The point of the 7 is not huge torque, it's how playful it is. it'll add at least 100-150kg as the chassis will have to be braced all over the place, in fact it might even completely change the kerb weight.
It'll also be devoid of the personality of a 7. But nobody on PH seems to really be bothered about this basic fact. 80 miles
The point is not that nobody drives a Caterham long distances, but that most people do not drive them long distances.
For example, there is no reason you can't tow a caravan with a Caterham, and i bet someone has, but you'll not come across many 7's with caravans behind them!
A caterham is not a Tesla Model 3. They are mostly weekend toys, that do few miles (go on, check the average mileage of the Caterhams for sale in the PH classifieds and divide by there age, they do tiny mileages).
As the Charging network improves, which it is doing at an exponetial rate, a small battery simply means short distances between stops to recharge, again, in a car like that, after 2 hours driving, you'll probably want (note: probably, not must, for those people who drive non-stop to the south of france to get a pint of milk) to stop and stretch out for 15 min. And because the battery is small, the charge times are short! (remember journey charging time is not much to do with the size of the battery fitted, but actually more to do with the average charging rating of the charger, a 50kW charger charges at about 200 mph for example)
And as Caterhams aren't cars that do 100,000 miles in 5 years unlike insignia diesels driven by photocopier salesmen, i'm sure Caterham can go pretty hard on the battery charge rate at the cost of life time. For example, the typical 100,000 mile battery warranty on more mainstream EV is never likely to become much of a problem for a car that does about 2,000 miles a year.
And of course, battery size and mass is tumbling all the time even with existing battery tech (rather than any breakthrough tech) thanks to better packaging and optimisation of the battery architecture. Take my bmw i3, released with a 22kWg (gross) battery in 2013, it now has 42 kWh in exactly the same space and mass. That means a caterham with 22 kWh could using current tech/packaging have a battery of around 140kg mass.
And with a bit more volts (i3 is old tech now and is still down at 380v nominal, considered low these days) i bet you could knock another 20 kg off that without too much trouble
So lets immagine that, a Caterham that weighs about 60 to 80kg more than it currently does, that'll do say 80 to 100 miles, and that can charge back up in about 15 min.
Doesn't sound too bad to me :-)
Having been sat at a motorway service area on the M25 eating my lunch, I observed a spat, when one EV pulled away from one of the charging points there (the others were all occupied), and 3 EV`s waiting in spaces nearby made a dash for the now only free charging point. One driver just returned to his parking space. But two of them had an argument over who had been waiting there the longest, and an altercation broke out. It was highly amusing.
But the motorsport and technology manager at Caterham stated that an EV Caterham would add 150 to 200 kg to the weight of the car, and cost three times as much.
Much as owners like them, I doubt that many would be willing to deal with that, and pay for that for a car which a few here have described as weekend toy, and a weekend toy with a pitiful range, (Especially if used enthusiastically (which is what Caterham's are all about) as well !). As others have said a Caterham with a tiny range, is likely to induce range anxiety fairly swiftly (and they are not the best cars for leaving on the side of the road, with a flat power pack)
Max_Torque said:
I challange you to drive in the Uk for 80 miles "flat out" in a caterham without either crashing or being arrested!
It's simply just not realistic .More likely you'll be squirting hard out of 30 mph zones, up to say 80 or 100, for a shortish distance. Ok, if you live in the highlands of scotland you'll be able to use more of the performance more of the time, but for the other 99% of Caterham owners, it's not going to be too much of a problem.
Realistic EV consumptions range between 3 and 4 miles per kWh for road driven cars, and thanks to regen, driving hard doesn't make that much difference as long as you use the regen, ie not so hard you need to use the fritcion brakes. A Caterham has a terrible drag co-efficient, but it also has a tiny frontal area, so overall, at normal road speeds, it'll do just fine!
More waffle. It's obvious these are used as track cars in in the main. Do you poodle around on track? Don't answer as I don't care but sadly your blindness to EV shortcomings seems to provoke the same EVs are amazing guff every single time. Oh for a balanced view It's simply just not realistic .More likely you'll be squirting hard out of 30 mph zones, up to say 80 or 100, for a shortish distance. Ok, if you live in the highlands of scotland you'll be able to use more of the performance more of the time, but for the other 99% of Caterham owners, it's not going to be too much of a problem.
Realistic EV consumptions range between 3 and 4 miles per kWh for road driven cars, and thanks to regen, driving hard doesn't make that much difference as long as you use the regen, ie not so hard you need to use the fritcion brakes. A Caterham has a terrible drag co-efficient, but it also has a tiny frontal area, so overall, at normal road speeds, it'll do just fine!
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