Power, Now vs Then vs Reality
Discussion
AreOut said:
I am not familiar with that abbreviation, but you are free to scientifically prove me wrong...
I'm free, to do what i want, any old tiiime. etc etc. 
There's far to many variables to prove anything, but my experience tells me that in a real world overtaking manoeuvre it's not a great deal of difference in time taken between my m3 & my old fiesta, & there's getting on for a couple of hundred bhp difference there.
Maybe things would be a little different If I owned a G whizz & a veyron? I don't know.
Of course, massive power can certainly reduce the time/distance required for some overtaking.
The thing to remember though is that having used your 500bhp to the max in order to pass the cars in front you then need to lose the massive speed that you've gained before the upcoming bend or next slower moving vehicle.
This comes back to the bike situation again. You can wang past most things, but most of the time there isn't any need to unless you want to because most of the time you'll be required to slam on the anchors again very soon, so you often roll on the the gas to build up speed and are slowing before pulling back in.
The thing to remember though is that having used your 500bhp to the max in order to pass the cars in front you then need to lose the massive speed that you've gained before the upcoming bend or next slower moving vehicle.
This comes back to the bike situation again. You can wang past most things, but most of the time there isn't any need to unless you want to because most of the time you'll be required to slam on the anchors again very soon, so you often roll on the the gas to build up speed and are slowing before pulling back in.
MC Bodge said:
Of course, massive power can certainly reduce the time/distance required for some overtaking.
The thing to remember though is that having used your 500bhp to the max in order to pass the cars in front you then need to lose the massive speed that you've gained before the upcoming bend or next slower moving vehicle.
This comes back to the bike situation again. You can wang past most things, but most of the time there isn't any need to unless you want to because most of the time you'll be required to slam on the anchors again very soon, so you often roll on the the gas to build up speed and are slowing before pulling back in.
Yep, many a time I've found myself braking as I pass the car, it's quite an art! The thing to remember though is that having used your 500bhp to the max in order to pass the cars in front you then need to lose the massive speed that you've gained before the upcoming bend or next slower moving vehicle.
This comes back to the bike situation again. You can wang past most things, but most of the time there isn't any need to unless you want to because most of the time you'll be required to slam on the anchors again very soon, so you often roll on the the gas to build up speed and are slowing before pulling back in.
The 70's Capri 3.0 I passed my test and smoked around in had 138hp, 120 hp/ton, and you could hang its back end out at will. Great fun.
Most other new cars on the road were 68 hp/ton 1.3 Escorts & Cortinas etc. and much slower, so it felt relatively quick.
No abs, no airbags, no esp, I was an accident waiting to happen and would have been dead in a crash.
The 80's Monza 3.0 I smoked around in the 80's had 180hp, 120 hp/ton, and you could hang its LSD back end out if you tried hard. Great fun.
Most other new cars on the road were 65 hp/ton 1.3 Escorts & 1.0 Fiestas etc. and much slower, so it felt relatively quick.
No abs, no airbags, no esp, I was less of an accident waiting to happen, and walked away from a crash thanks to the much heavier and stronger car.
The 90's Audi V8 4.2 I smoked around in the 90's had 280hp, 160 hp/ton, you couldn't hang its back end out but it would four wheel drift if you were determined. Great fun.
Most cars on the road were 68 hp/ton1.4 Escorts & 1.1 Fiestas etc. and very much slower, so it felt relatively very quick.
Abs, no airbags, no esp, but I was no longer an accident waiting to happen, and could survive worse crashes thanks to the even stronger and even heavier car.
The 00's SLK AMG I've zoomed around in since the 00's has 354hp, 237 hp/ton, and you can hang its back end out at will but only if you back the esp off. Great fun.
Most cars on the road were a 83 hp/ton 1.6 Focus & 1.3 Fiestas etc. and much much slower, so it's relatively very quick indeed.
Abs, esp, and airbags, I've never even come close to an accident despite enjoying using all of its performance whenever safe to do so, and might survive even worse crashes thanks to the even stronger 4* NCAP safety despite it weighing a bit less.
The 2012 MINI Cooper SD I've zoomed around in recently has 143hp, 114hp/ton, it corners like a go kart, grips like a limpet, runs rings round most other cars, eventually drifts so controllably if you want it to, and still does 50mpg when I want it to. Great fun.
The majority of cars on the road today are 84 hp/ton 1.6 Ford Focus TDCi's & 1.25 Ford Fiestas etc. and are still much slower, so it's still relatively quick.
Abs, esp, and airbags galore, I've not even come close to an accident despite using all of its performance whenever safe to do so, and might survive just as bad crashes thanks to the even stronger 5* NCAP safety despite it weighing less.
Yep, cars have got heavier and MUCH safer over the years, and they got more powerful to compensate accordingly for the extra weight.
The power to weight ratio of an average car has remained pretty similar over the years though, despite twice as much engine power in the most popular cars today, becuase they also weigh about twice as much today.
Thankfully my cars gained more power than weight over that time. Until the MINI.
So which car would I take out for fun, just to enjoy the drive?
It's a very close run thing between the SLK and the MINI for me, even though the MINI has half the power to weight ratio.
The MINI is relatively quick in a straight line, very quick indeed through the corners, reasonably comfortable, and great fun to drive, compared with most other cars on the road.
The SLK is very quick indeed in a straight line, relatively quick through the corners, very comfortable, and relatively good fun to drive, compared with most other cars on the road.
If I drive the SLK at 100% in a straight line where it's at its best, I can enjoy 100% of its performance and engine sound dozens of times on every journey, as I accelerate rapidly up to whatever the speed limit is. Yet it's also very comfortable and quiet whenever I just want or need to cruise.
If I drove the MINI at 100% through corners where it's at its best, I'm an accident waiting to happen if I misjudged the grip in a corner. That kind of 100% driving should really be on the track, without other road users coming the other way, or joggers / cyclists / horse riders around the corner.
So I would rather drive a 237hp/ton car at 100% of its potential for 30% of the time, than a 114hp/ton car at 90-100% for 90% of the time on the road, and then end up having an accident because I'm driving it on the limit too much of the time.
Give me a 200+hp/ton car every time to overtake HGV's effortlessly & safely whenever required, and leave behind the yoofs in the old shape M3 at will. 300+hp/ton would be even better.
I've not encountered "too much" power in any of the cars I've driven including 500+hp AMG's & Skyline's etc, and I suspect that some of those who suggest the opposite perhaps may not have lived with sufficiently powerful cars for long enough, to make a wholly informed comparison, imho.
For me it's close though, and it just depends on how you prefer to get your driving enjoyment. Horses for courses.
Don't care if you disagree, as it's just my opinion based on my own experience over 30 years and a million+ miles of my own driving enjoyment.
What's yours?
Most other new cars on the road were 68 hp/ton 1.3 Escorts & Cortinas etc. and much slower, so it felt relatively quick.
No abs, no airbags, no esp, I was an accident waiting to happen and would have been dead in a crash.
The 80's Monza 3.0 I smoked around in the 80's had 180hp, 120 hp/ton, and you could hang its LSD back end out if you tried hard. Great fun.
Most other new cars on the road were 65 hp/ton 1.3 Escorts & 1.0 Fiestas etc. and much slower, so it felt relatively quick.
No abs, no airbags, no esp, I was less of an accident waiting to happen, and walked away from a crash thanks to the much heavier and stronger car.
The 90's Audi V8 4.2 I smoked around in the 90's had 280hp, 160 hp/ton, you couldn't hang its back end out but it would four wheel drift if you were determined. Great fun.
Most cars on the road were 68 hp/ton1.4 Escorts & 1.1 Fiestas etc. and very much slower, so it felt relatively very quick.
Abs, no airbags, no esp, but I was no longer an accident waiting to happen, and could survive worse crashes thanks to the even stronger and even heavier car.
The 00's SLK AMG I've zoomed around in since the 00's has 354hp, 237 hp/ton, and you can hang its back end out at will but only if you back the esp off. Great fun.
Most cars on the road were a 83 hp/ton 1.6 Focus & 1.3 Fiestas etc. and much much slower, so it's relatively very quick indeed.
Abs, esp, and airbags, I've never even come close to an accident despite enjoying using all of its performance whenever safe to do so, and might survive even worse crashes thanks to the even stronger 4* NCAP safety despite it weighing a bit less.
The 2012 MINI Cooper SD I've zoomed around in recently has 143hp, 114hp/ton, it corners like a go kart, grips like a limpet, runs rings round most other cars, eventually drifts so controllably if you want it to, and still does 50mpg when I want it to. Great fun.
The majority of cars on the road today are 84 hp/ton 1.6 Ford Focus TDCi's & 1.25 Ford Fiestas etc. and are still much slower, so it's still relatively quick.
Abs, esp, and airbags galore, I've not even come close to an accident despite using all of its performance whenever safe to do so, and might survive just as bad crashes thanks to the even stronger 5* NCAP safety despite it weighing less.
Yep, cars have got heavier and MUCH safer over the years, and they got more powerful to compensate accordingly for the extra weight.
The power to weight ratio of an average car has remained pretty similar over the years though, despite twice as much engine power in the most popular cars today, becuase they also weigh about twice as much today.
Thankfully my cars gained more power than weight over that time. Until the MINI.
So which car would I take out for fun, just to enjoy the drive?
It's a very close run thing between the SLK and the MINI for me, even though the MINI has half the power to weight ratio.
The MINI is relatively quick in a straight line, very quick indeed through the corners, reasonably comfortable, and great fun to drive, compared with most other cars on the road.
The SLK is very quick indeed in a straight line, relatively quick through the corners, very comfortable, and relatively good fun to drive, compared with most other cars on the road.
If I drive the SLK at 100% in a straight line where it's at its best, I can enjoy 100% of its performance and engine sound dozens of times on every journey, as I accelerate rapidly up to whatever the speed limit is. Yet it's also very comfortable and quiet whenever I just want or need to cruise.
If I drove the MINI at 100% through corners where it's at its best, I'm an accident waiting to happen if I misjudged the grip in a corner. That kind of 100% driving should really be on the track, without other road users coming the other way, or joggers / cyclists / horse riders around the corner.
So I would rather drive a 237hp/ton car at 100% of its potential for 30% of the time, than a 114hp/ton car at 90-100% for 90% of the time on the road, and then end up having an accident because I'm driving it on the limit too much of the time.
Give me a 200+hp/ton car every time to overtake HGV's effortlessly & safely whenever required, and leave behind the yoofs in the old shape M3 at will. 300+hp/ton would be even better.
I've not encountered "too much" power in any of the cars I've driven including 500+hp AMG's & Skyline's etc, and I suspect that some of those who suggest the opposite perhaps may not have lived with sufficiently powerful cars for long enough, to make a wholly informed comparison, imho.
For me it's close though, and it just depends on how you prefer to get your driving enjoyment. Horses for courses.
Don't care if you disagree, as it's just my opinion based on my own experience over 30 years and a million+ miles of my own driving enjoyment.
What's yours?
Wills2 said:
MC Bodge said:
Of course, massive power can certainly reduce the time/distance required for some overtaking.
The thing to remember though is that having used your 500bhp to the max in order to pass the cars in front you then need to lose the massive speed that you've gained before the upcoming bend or next slower moving vehicle.
This comes back to the bike situation again. You can wang past most things, but most of the time there isn't any need to unless you want to because most of the time you'll be required to slam on the anchors again very soon, so you often roll on the the gas to build up speed and are slowing before pulling back in.
Yep, many a time I've found myself braking as I pass the car, it's quite an art! The thing to remember though is that having used your 500bhp to the max in order to pass the cars in front you then need to lose the massive speed that you've gained before the upcoming bend or next slower moving vehicle.
This comes back to the bike situation again. You can wang past most things, but most of the time there isn't any need to unless you want to because most of the time you'll be required to slam on the anchors again very soon, so you often roll on the the gas to build up speed and are slowing before pulling back in.
I sometimes feel bad for the person I've just overtaken. In/On whatever, it's all noise and shouty exhausts disturbing their world. Then sometimes brake lights as well. Poor lambs.One Amp Andy said:
Wills2 said:
MC Bodge said:
Of course, massive power can certainly reduce the time/distance required for some overtaking.
The thing to remember though is that having used your 500bhp to the max in order to pass the cars in front you then need to lose the massive speed that you've gained before the upcoming bend or next slower moving vehicle.
This comes back to the bike situation again. You can wang past most things, but most of the time there isn't any need to unless you want to because most of the time you'll be required to slam on the anchors again very soon, so you often roll on the the gas to build up speed and are slowing before pulling back in.
Yep, many a time I've found myself braking as I pass the car, it's quite an art! The thing to remember though is that having used your 500bhp to the max in order to pass the cars in front you then need to lose the massive speed that you've gained before the upcoming bend or next slower moving vehicle.
This comes back to the bike situation again. You can wang past most things, but most of the time there isn't any need to unless you want to because most of the time you'll be required to slam on the anchors again very soon, so you often roll on the the gas to build up speed and are slowing before pulling back in.
I sometimes feel bad for the person I've just overtaken. In/On whatever, it's all noise and shouty exhausts disturbing their world. Then sometimes brake lights as well. Poor lambs.
I drive c170bhp/tonne with a wedge of torque which day to day is plenty fast enough.
I have driven MUCH faster cars and for me if money was no object I'd have to admit the sweet spot for me is 380bhp/tonne that's super super fun. Agreed totally useless 99% of the time BUT for that 1% well it's worth it and that's what PH is all about happy crazy fast cars which sound sublime have character and it can certainly get a wiggle on;)
I have driven MUCH faster cars and for me if money was no object I'd have to admit the sweet spot for me is 380bhp/tonne that's super super fun. Agreed totally useless 99% of the time BUT for that 1% well it's worth it and that's what PH is all about happy crazy fast cars which sound sublime have character and it can certainly get a wiggle on;)
Wills2 said:
one of the joys of driving is extending your car and listening to the howl it makes surely?
if only there was a howl. The only thing that ruins going for a hoon in my current motor - it sounds awful. And with a 'mere' 110 horses (~84/ton), I can still overtake just fine, the main limitation is visibility and oncoming traffic. I think a lot of the power increases in even mundane cars simply comes from the requirement to deliver a certain level of performance against the fact the average weight has shot up due to all the toys and safety kit needed these days. Plus - faster/more power seems like progress, doesn't it? Saying the new model is slower because the new crash regs make it heavier simply won't cut it.
Also, a personal note, but I do find myself avoiding stuff with less than 200bhp when playing Gran Turismo, if only because the game numbs the sensation of speed so much it just doesn't feel like you're moving even when doing 60mph. But then that's the effect a wide racing track has. A narrow country lane is something quite different. I recall well James May's comment about opening the door of the Veyron SS after his v-max run.
My first few cars I recall driving them to the absolute max on the public highway (84bhp and 100bhp) and at the time thinking oh my god this is epically fast I am a driving god!!!
Well I have to say I took many big risks and drove those cars very very hard.
Now there is no way I could drive anywhere near as hard as firstly those cars could do 105mph and 115mph after a long run.... So these days I'd be into mega speed which I'd not even consider on the public highway whereas 18odd years ago maxing a car on the road to those speeds wasn't exactly dangers..
I have maxed my cars of the last 7 years when out in Germany and France it's fun from a numbers perspective but that's it. When younger hitting the "Ton" was a big thing these days it doesn't take much nor long to achieve that.
Clearly I know those cars where s
t cars never the less they were what I grew up in.
I would happily have a Mk1 GTi or a Pug 1.9 GTi now intact either in white would be a nice start to my weekend car collection (or should that be a nice E28 M5.... )
Well I have to say I took many big risks and drove those cars very very hard.
Now there is no way I could drive anywhere near as hard as firstly those cars could do 105mph and 115mph after a long run.... So these days I'd be into mega speed which I'd not even consider on the public highway whereas 18odd years ago maxing a car on the road to those speeds wasn't exactly dangers..
I have maxed my cars of the last 7 years when out in Germany and France it's fun from a numbers perspective but that's it. When younger hitting the "Ton" was a big thing these days it doesn't take much nor long to achieve that.
Clearly I know those cars where s
t cars never the less they were what I grew up in. I would happily have a Mk1 GTi or a Pug 1.9 GTi now intact either in white would be a nice start to my weekend car collection (or should that be a nice E28 M5.... )
Guibo said:
300bhp/ton said:
There is a flip side though, in that a powerful car can often require far more effort to drive at the limit, and it's limit might actually be far lower due to the ease of spinning the wheels.
So in many ways to attain this:
"Because (at least for me) the fun in driving a car comes from pushing a car as close to its limits as I safety can"
Is actually more rewarding and challenging in cars with more power at time. E.g. it's more rewarding to push my TR7 to it's limits, but with the extra power comes traction issues. You simply can't plant it like you can in the Roadster. Even if you are going slower.
But if you've already breached the limit with, say, 200 hp then of what use is another 200 hp?So in many ways to attain this:
"Because (at least for me) the fun in driving a car comes from pushing a car as close to its limits as I safety can"
Is actually more rewarding and challenging in cars with more power at time. E.g. it's more rewarding to push my TR7 to it's limits, but with the extra power comes traction issues. You simply can't plant it like you can in the Roadster. Even if you are going slower.
Seriously though, just because you can't use WOT under cornering, doesn't mean you can't put your foot down at other time.
Guibo said:
Just because a car requires more effort doesn't necessarily mean it's more rewarding.
No, but on the flip side, just because requires less effort also doesn't make it more rewarding. But I think there's a balance between pace and sense of occasion. If you 'feel' as though you've just made the car perform, then it can heighten the sense of occasion.redgriff500 said:
I guess you both are happy driving slower than I am or drive on straight roads with no traffic coming the other way.
In my 210bhp MX5 I can regularly take 3 or 4 cars at a time and I can gurantee if you try to follow me in a standard one you will become a greasy stain on the road.
That may be true. But one would have to question how safe any such overtake is, if it's that close.In my 210bhp MX5 I can regularly take 3 or 4 cars at a time and I can gurantee if you try to follow me in a standard one you will become a greasy stain on the road.
surely its more about the bhp vs handling capabilities of a car.
Ie my ibiza has 63bhp, its so funny to thrash, completely standard. yes its a bag of st, but to be honest with its current tyres and suspension, it wouldnt be so fun with more power. just end up going into a corner too fast and crashing. its backend steps out like of piece of piss at 20mph on a roundabout in the wet. In the past 3 years i've only lost it once (and that was in the dry), driving up a quiet lane, with an empty layby on the left, flicked it in. the debris in the layby was like marbles; before i knew it i was on the lock; where i was then understeering across the road, i then bounced off the grass verge on the other side; haha.
handling is far more important than power, its all about what sort of power a car can sensibly handle (and of course the same said for the person behind the wheel).
Ie my ibiza has 63bhp, its so funny to thrash, completely standard. yes its a bag of s
t, but to be honest with its current tyres and suspension, it wouldnt be so fun with more power. just end up going into a corner too fast and crashing. its backend steps out like of piece of piss at 20mph on a roundabout in the wet. In the past 3 years i've only lost it once (and that was in the dry), driving up a quiet lane, with an empty layby on the left, flicked it in. the debris in the layby was like marbles; before i knew it i was on the lock; where i was then understeering across the road, i then bounced off the grass verge on the other side; haha. handling is far more important than power, its all about what sort of power a car can sensibly handle (and of course the same said for the person behind the wheel).
orangesrule said:
surely its more about the bhp vs handling capabilities of a car.
Ie my ibiza has 63bhp, its so funny to thrash, completely standard. yes its a bag of st, but to be honest with its current tyres and suspension, it wouldnt be so fun with more power. just end up going into a corner too fast and crashing. its backend steps out like of piece of piss at 20mph on a roundabout in the wet. In the past 3 years i've only lost it once (and that was in the dry), driving up a quiet lane, with an empty layby on the left, flicked it in. the debris in the layby was like marbles; before i knew it i was on the lock; where i was then understeering across the road, i then bounced off the grass verge on the other side; haha.
handling is far more important than power, its all about what sort of power a car can sensibly handle (and of course the same said for the person behind the wheel).
This all depends what type of car you are talking about.Ie my ibiza has 63bhp, its so funny to thrash, completely standard. yes its a bag of s
t, but to be honest with its current tyres and suspension, it wouldnt be so fun with more power. just end up going into a corner too fast and crashing. its backend steps out like of piece of piss at 20mph on a roundabout in the wet. In the past 3 years i've only lost it once (and that was in the dry), driving up a quiet lane, with an empty layby on the left, flicked it in. the debris in the layby was like marbles; before i knew it i was on the lock; where i was then understeering across the road, i then bounced off the grass verge on the other side; haha. handling is far more important than power, its all about what sort of power a car can sensibly handle (and of course the same said for the person behind the wheel).
e.g. go drive one of these and then tell me power isn't important
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