BMW have gone too far
Discussion
I love it when all the armchair experts have their say!
Yes my E300 has 231bhp (204bhp from the engine and 27bhp from the electric motor). Yes people can safely overtake with less power & torque. My other car has a mere 140bhp and 120lb/ft of torque, and that is far quicker - and thus safer - in an overtaking manoeuvre. Perhaps the 'experts' don't realise that, while 231bhp is a reasonable amount of power, it's having to lug >2000kgs. The E-class Estate is a heavy old beast.
However - and here's the kicker - not once have I said the car is dangerous in overtaking due to power (or torque). Far from it. No the issue is the gearbox. Allow me to elaborate:
- See an overtaking opportunity
- Wake engine from its 'sailing' slumber
- Depress accelerator
- Wait for gearbox
- Gearbox wakes up, changes down 2 or 3 gears and puts the engine to around 4000rpm where there's no power.
- Choose between waiting till it changes up (which it resolutely won't do until 4500rpm, all the while being way beyond the usable power band) or start lifting to facilitate an upchange, hoping it'll only change up one gear.
- Gearbox changes up and, now at 50% throttle, begin applying more power progressively to avoid it downchanging.
- Meanwhile left floundering on the wrong side of the road.
The above sounds ridiculous doesn't it. And it is...the gearbox is frankly crap. Really, really crap. And that's before I mention the huge drivetrain thumps it elicits at random intervals. I do use Manual mode too, but the paddles are more a request than a demand; request a downchange and it refuses, then drops two gears. Same for upchanges.
Of course these 'experts' would know this having never driven the car, or better still driven a lighter variant with a different gearbox (E300 has a wet clutch and specific gearbox mapping to facilitate the hybrid system, which drives through the gearbox).
So perhaps you guys should try one and see if it changes your mind. Or of course you can judge it based on driving different cars and just assume that they're a valid comparison.
Meanwhile, in reference to the OP, I agree it's a bit of a sell-out with all the 'M' this and that adorning ever exterior surface. However as car enthusiasts I believe we've never had it so good. Cars are far more affordable now that back in the 80s and 90s with far greater performance. Also far less feedback and, arguably, far less enjoyment too, but that's another thread.
Yes my E300 has 231bhp (204bhp from the engine and 27bhp from the electric motor). Yes people can safely overtake with less power & torque. My other car has a mere 140bhp and 120lb/ft of torque, and that is far quicker - and thus safer - in an overtaking manoeuvre. Perhaps the 'experts' don't realise that, while 231bhp is a reasonable amount of power, it's having to lug >2000kgs. The E-class Estate is a heavy old beast.
However - and here's the kicker - not once have I said the car is dangerous in overtaking due to power (or torque). Far from it. No the issue is the gearbox. Allow me to elaborate:
- See an overtaking opportunity
- Wake engine from its 'sailing' slumber
- Depress accelerator
- Wait for gearbox
- Gearbox wakes up, changes down 2 or 3 gears and puts the engine to around 4000rpm where there's no power.
- Choose between waiting till it changes up (which it resolutely won't do until 4500rpm, all the while being way beyond the usable power band) or start lifting to facilitate an upchange, hoping it'll only change up one gear.
- Gearbox changes up and, now at 50% throttle, begin applying more power progressively to avoid it downchanging.
- Meanwhile left floundering on the wrong side of the road.
The above sounds ridiculous doesn't it. And it is...the gearbox is frankly crap. Really, really crap. And that's before I mention the huge drivetrain thumps it elicits at random intervals. I do use Manual mode too, but the paddles are more a request than a demand; request a downchange and it refuses, then drops two gears. Same for upchanges.
Of course these 'experts' would know this having never driven the car, or better still driven a lighter variant with a different gearbox (E300 has a wet clutch and specific gearbox mapping to facilitate the hybrid system, which drives through the gearbox).
So perhaps you guys should try one and see if it changes your mind. Or of course you can judge it based on driving different cars and just assume that they're a valid comparison.
Meanwhile, in reference to the OP, I agree it's a bit of a sell-out with all the 'M' this and that adorning ever exterior surface. However as car enthusiasts I believe we've never had it so good. Cars are far more affordable now that back in the 80s and 90s with far greater performance. Also far less feedback and, arguably, far less enjoyment too, but that's another thread.
ghibbett said:
I love it when all the armchair experts have their say!
Yes my E300 has 231bhp (204bhp from the engine and 27bhp from the electric motor). Yes people can safely overtake with less power & torque. My other car has a mere 140bhp and 120lb/ft of torque, and that is far quicker - and thus safer - in an overtaking manoeuvre. Perhaps the 'experts' don't realise that, while 231bhp is a reasonable amount of power, it's having to lug >2000kgs. The E-class Estate is a heavy old beast.
However - and here's the kicker - not once have I said the car is dangerous in overtaking due to power (or torque). Far from it. No the issue is the gearbox. Allow me to elaborate:
- See an overtaking opportunity
- Wake engine from its 'sailing' slumber
- Depress accelerator
- Wait for gearbox
- Gearbox wakes up, changes down 2 or 3 gears and puts the engine to around 4000rpm where there's no power.
- Choose between waiting till it changes up (which it resolutely won't do until 4500rpm, all the while being way beyond the usable power band) or start lifting to facilitate an upchange, hoping it'll only change up one gear.
- Gearbox changes up and, now at 50% throttle, begin applying more power progressively to avoid it downchanging.
- Meanwhile left floundering on the wrong side of the road.
The above sounds ridiculous doesn't it. And it is...the gearbox is frankly crap. Really, really crap. And that's before I mention the huge drivetrain thumps it elicits at random intervals. I do use Manual mode too, but the paddles are more a request than a demand; request a downchange and it refuses, then drops two gears. Same for upchanges.
Of course these 'experts' would know this having never driven the car, or better still driven a lighter variant with a different gearbox (E300 has a wet clutch and specific gearbox mapping to facilitate the hybrid system, which drives through the gearbox).
So perhaps you guys should try one and see if it changes your mind. Or of course you can judge it based on driving different cars and just assume that they're a valid comparison.
Meanwhile, in reference to the OP, I agree it's a bit of a sell-out with all the 'M' this and that adorning ever exterior surface. However as car enthusiasts I believe we've never had it so good. Cars are far more affordable now that back in the 80s and 90s with far greater performance. Also far less feedback and, arguably, far less enjoyment too, but that's another thread.
Seems reasonable enough to me. Modern cars can be caught out easily with their silly 'driver demand' mapping and funky gearboxes. Haven't driven the car in your example but in other (german) cars, have gone for an overtake or attempted to join a DC off a VERY short slip road, only for the engine computers to say NO and shut the bloody throttle. As you say, dangerous.Yes my E300 has 231bhp (204bhp from the engine and 27bhp from the electric motor). Yes people can safely overtake with less power & torque. My other car has a mere 140bhp and 120lb/ft of torque, and that is far quicker - and thus safer - in an overtaking manoeuvre. Perhaps the 'experts' don't realise that, while 231bhp is a reasonable amount of power, it's having to lug >2000kgs. The E-class Estate is a heavy old beast.
However - and here's the kicker - not once have I said the car is dangerous in overtaking due to power (or torque). Far from it. No the issue is the gearbox. Allow me to elaborate:
- See an overtaking opportunity
- Wake engine from its 'sailing' slumber
- Depress accelerator
- Wait for gearbox
- Gearbox wakes up, changes down 2 or 3 gears and puts the engine to around 4000rpm where there's no power.
- Choose between waiting till it changes up (which it resolutely won't do until 4500rpm, all the while being way beyond the usable power band) or start lifting to facilitate an upchange, hoping it'll only change up one gear.
- Gearbox changes up and, now at 50% throttle, begin applying more power progressively to avoid it downchanging.
- Meanwhile left floundering on the wrong side of the road.
The above sounds ridiculous doesn't it. And it is...the gearbox is frankly crap. Really, really crap. And that's before I mention the huge drivetrain thumps it elicits at random intervals. I do use Manual mode too, but the paddles are more a request than a demand; request a downchange and it refuses, then drops two gears. Same for upchanges.
Of course these 'experts' would know this having never driven the car, or better still driven a lighter variant with a different gearbox (E300 has a wet clutch and specific gearbox mapping to facilitate the hybrid system, which drives through the gearbox).
So perhaps you guys should try one and see if it changes your mind. Or of course you can judge it based on driving different cars and just assume that they're a valid comparison.
Meanwhile, in reference to the OP, I agree it's a bit of a sell-out with all the 'M' this and that adorning ever exterior surface. However as car enthusiasts I believe we've never had it so good. Cars are far more affordable now that back in the 80s and 90s with far greater performance. Also far less feedback and, arguably, far less enjoyment too, but that's another thread.
I test drove an E300 diesel, might have been 350, anyway, pulling away from standstill was very weak. Big delay in the engine and gearbox waking up as you say. Compared to the 530d it felt quite broken TBH. Its great for cruising but I couldn't put up with it as daily transport...with or without AMG stickers
bigkeeko said:
Some of the people with stickered up M badge cars aren't any worse than some of the tools on this thread.
I think that's the whole issue: people who view cars with an image based viewpoint see image based aspects to the car and its owner. When I see an M Sport BMW I just think 'sportier suspension' and that's as far as it goes. I'm not saying one's good and one's bad (that would be very condescending of me!), but it's very obvious when someone is badge/image orientated or function orientated. You get the same thing with Apple haters on tech forums - they think everyone buys Apple phones for the image, whereas for most of us it's just a phone that we prefer due to function, not image.Seesure said:
It symptomatic of the UK psyche which seems to be very much all fur coat and no knickers....
Having to look the part is much more important to so many people...
Fake tan
Fake nails
Fake hair extensions
Bleached teeth
Fake watches
Fake sunglasses
Fake labels....Shoes, handbags, t-shirts...etc
Fake T*ts
Whilst living at home with parents and struggling to pay their mobile phone bills. Still, living the dream on Instagram yolo! Having to look the part is much more important to so many people...
Fake tan
Fake nails
Fake hair extensions
Bleached teeth
Fake watches
Fake sunglasses
Fake labels....Shoes, handbags, t-shirts...etc
Fake T*ts
BrewsterBear said:
I think the teary-eyedness comes from days of yore when M Cars actually meant something. They were either homologation specials or based on such. Something head and shoulders above the standard cars. We imagine that they were developed and built away from the normal production lines, by race engineers with a purity of mind and a spirit devout to making the perfect driving machine. Whether that's true or not is neither here nor there. Nowadays it appears as though an M car is just a standard model dropped 20mm on inch-bigger wheels with a fruitier map. Back in the day the only way a BMW would have an M badge on was because it was an M car or because someone had nicked it off a real one to put on their 318. There was no M-Sport or M-something-likey.
Does it matter in the grand scheme? Not really. Cars aren't what they used to be. They're a disposable commodity now, much like the iPhone. All that matters is that it's new and looks the dog's danglies. I even saw an advert the other week for a Honda and the only thing it told me was it had two USB slots and however much a month it was! That's what sells cars these days. In 3 years time they'll be worth very little and passed on to a second owner. In 6 years time they're out of date and need throwing away, especially as they won't be Euro13 compliant and therefore not allowed within 50 miles of a primary school. I remember when I was a nipper and if your mate's dad had a BMW or Mercedes that was something really special, let alone if they were an M or AMG. These days they're giving them away to any idiot with £200 a month to spare and these people want them to look like the sporty ones.
Anyway, I've just added an E39 M5 to my garage and that's old, which means I'm poor and my opinion is worth less and/or worthless. I look forward to people pointing out I could have had a new diesel 5-series M-Sport on PCP for far less.
+1 well said Does it matter in the grand scheme? Not really. Cars aren't what they used to be. They're a disposable commodity now, much like the iPhone. All that matters is that it's new and looks the dog's danglies. I even saw an advert the other week for a Honda and the only thing it told me was it had two USB slots and however much a month it was! That's what sells cars these days. In 3 years time they'll be worth very little and passed on to a second owner. In 6 years time they're out of date and need throwing away, especially as they won't be Euro13 compliant and therefore not allowed within 50 miles of a primary school. I remember when I was a nipper and if your mate's dad had a BMW or Mercedes that was something really special, let alone if they were an M or AMG. These days they're giving them away to any idiot with £200 a month to spare and these people want them to look like the sporty ones.
Anyway, I've just added an E39 M5 to my garage and that's old, which means I'm poor and my opinion is worth less and/or worthless. I look forward to people pointing out I could have had a new diesel 5-series M-Sport on PCP for far less.
ghibbett said:
So you've not driven one then
Oh, and thanks for calling me a clown just because I have a different opinion than you.
He's calling you a clown because your posts suggest you are. Assuming your car isn't actually broken (e.g. engine randomly cutting out part way through an overtake) then maybe consider taking some more driving lessons or hang up your keys.Oh, and thanks for calling me a clown just because I have a different opinion than you.
BrewsterBear said:
I think the teary-eyedness comes from days of yore when M Cars actually meant something. They were either homologation specials or based on such. Something head and shoulders above the standard cars. We imagine that they were developed and built away from the normal production lines, by race engineers with a purity of mind and a spirit devout to making the perfect driving machine. Whether that's true or not is neither here nor there. Nowadays it appears as though an M car is just a standard model dropped 20mm on inch-bigger wheels with a fruitier map. Back in the day the only way a BMW would have an M badge on was because it was an M car or because someone had nicked it off a real one to put on their 318. There was no M-Sport or M-something-likey.
Does it matter in the grand scheme? Not really. Cars aren't what they used to be. They're a disposable commodity now, much like the iPhone. All that matters is that it's new and looks the dog's danglies. I even saw an advert the other week for a Honda and the only thing it told me was it had two USB slots and however much a month it was! That's what sells cars these days. In 3 years time they'll be worth very little and passed on to a second owner. In 6 years time they're out of date and need throwing away, especially as they won't be Euro13 compliant and therefore not allowed within 50 miles of a primary school. I remember when I was a nipper and if your mate's dad had a BMW or Mercedes that was something really special, let alone if they were an M or AMG. These days they're giving them away to any idiot with £200 a month to spare and these people want them to look like the sporty ones.
Anyway, I've just added an E39 M5 to my garage and that's old, which means I'm poor and my opinion is worth less and/or worthless. I look forward to people pointing out I could have had a new diesel 5-series M-Sport on PCP for far less.
What a load of misinformed tripe Does it matter in the grand scheme? Not really. Cars aren't what they used to be. They're a disposable commodity now, much like the iPhone. All that matters is that it's new and looks the dog's danglies. I even saw an advert the other week for a Honda and the only thing it told me was it had two USB slots and however much a month it was! That's what sells cars these days. In 3 years time they'll be worth very little and passed on to a second owner. In 6 years time they're out of date and need throwing away, especially as they won't be Euro13 compliant and therefore not allowed within 50 miles of a primary school. I remember when I was a nipper and if your mate's dad had a BMW or Mercedes that was something really special, let alone if they were an M or AMG. These days they're giving them away to any idiot with £200 a month to spare and these people want them to look like the sporty ones.
Anyway, I've just added an E39 M5 to my garage and that's old, which means I'm poor and my opinion is worth less and/or worthless. I look forward to people pointing out I could have had a new diesel 5-series M-Sport on PCP for far less.
RobM77 said:
Wills2 said:
What a load of misinformed tripe
I noticed that too, but I don't think it affects the key point he's making.M cars these days seem to be suped-up versions of other road cars in the range, not toned down race cars as they once were (or at least were perceived to be).
BrewsterBear said:
RobM77 said:
Wills2 said:
What a load of misinformed tripe
I noticed that too, but I don't think it affects the key point he's making.M cars these days seem to be suped-up versions of other road cars in the range, not toned down race cars as they once were (or at least were perceived to be).
Again though, even though that's not true, your key point remains solid, and that's that the 'M' badge used to mean a homologation special built separately (e.g. E30 M3), and then slipped to only mean an 'M' road car (e.g. E36 M3) but is now used to denote a normal BMW with a sportier focus (which used to be just the 'sport' designation). Personally, I don't care on jot what they call it, provided that customers aren't being misled, which I don't think they are as it's so long since the E30 M3 now and it's also a fair while since the switch from 'sport' to 'M sport'. I prefer to focus on the engineering of the car I'm buying and just ignore what it's called.
The basic premise of this thread wasn't really the above though, it was the untrue assumption by the OP that 'M Sport' just means a few styling tweaks. Actually, at the heart of the M Sport package lies a completely different set of springs and dampers tuned for a bias towards handling rather than comfort. There are also styling changes to go along with that, but they're almost certainly not where the bulk of your money is going when you tick 'M Sport'.
As I said earlier, people who care about image, like the OP, will get all het up over badges and styling etc and assume other people think like them and the whole car buying game is a peacock's folly. People into cars for how they drive and how they're engineered will focus on that instead. PH is moving alarmingly towards the former, but each to their own! However, it helps to not confuse the two though and assume everyone buys cars for the same reasons that you do.
Edited by RobM77 on Thursday 7th July 10:53
BrewsterBear said:
I think the teary-eyedness comes from days of yore when M Cars actually meant something. They were either homologation specials or based on such. Something head and shoulders above the standard cars. We imagine that they were developed and built away from the normal production lines, by race engineers with a purity of mind and a spirit devout to making the perfect driving machine. Whether that's true or not is neither here nor there. Nowadays it appears as though an M car is just a standard model dropped 20mm on inch-bigger wheels with a fruitier map. Back in the day the only way a BMW would have an M badge on was because it was an M car or because someone had nicked it off a real one to put on their 318. There was no M-Sport or M-something-likey.
There was stuff like the E28 M535i thoughs m said:
BrewsterBear said:
I think the teary-eyedness comes from days of yore when M Cars actually meant something. They were either homologation specials or based on such. Something head and shoulders above the standard cars. We imagine that they were developed and built away from the normal production lines, by race engineers with a purity of mind and a spirit devout to making the perfect driving machine. Whether that's true or not is neither here nor there. Nowadays it appears as though an M car is just a standard model dropped 20mm on inch-bigger wheels with a fruitier map. Back in the day the only way a BMW would have an M badge on was because it was an M car or because someone had nicked it off a real one to put on their 318. There was no M-Sport or M-something-likey.
There was stuff like the E28 M535i thoughProper M cars are something special, even if they don't have any direct connection to racing.
It's quite amusing how people with limited knowledge or interest in cars do think an M sport BMW is some sort of indication of performance or power. When a friend saw my wifes new (company) 118d M Sport he remarked that it 'must go like s*** off a shovel' and was I jealous that she had a faster car. I drive a new X3 30d which I'm told does 0-60 in a fairly brisk 5.8 seconds, but as I chose anti-bling xLine spec on small wheels it goes completely under the radar. Which I like.
ghibbett said:
However - and here's the kicker - not once have I said the car is dangerous in overtaking due to power (or torque). Far from it. No the issue is the gearbox. Allow me to elaborate:
- See an overtaking opportunity
- Wake engine from its 'sailing' slumber
- Depress accelerator
- Wait for gearbox
- Gearbox wakes up, changes down 2 or 3 gears and puts the engine to around 4000rpm where there's no power.
- Choose between waiting till it changes up (which it resolutely won't do until 4500rpm, all the while being way beyond the usable power band) or start lifting to facilitate an upchange, hoping it'll only change up one gear.
- Gearbox changes up and, now at 50% throttle, begin applying more power progressively to avoid it downchanging.
- Meanwhile left floundering on the wrong side of the road.
The above sounds ridiculous doesn't it. And it is...the gearbox is frankly crap. Really, really crap. And that's before I mention the huge drivetrain thumps it elicits at random intervals. I do use Manual mode too, but the paddles are more a request than a demand; request a downchange and it refuses, then drops two gears. Same for upchanges.
This strikes so many chords with me, now imagine my pain when that abysmal box is mated to an E220, sometimes I just want to get out and walk, it's the first time I got a car on lease and will maybe be the last time, I've not had it even a year and I have already been through the contract to see if there is any exit strategies(there isn't!), I'm stuck with it for 2 years, yes, it's a nice car that is very comfortable on the motorway with loads of useful gizzmos, but off the motorway it makes me want to just leave it and walk, my old E60 525d is 10 years older and so much of better car. If this was my only car, I would be suffering from depression.- See an overtaking opportunity
- Wake engine from its 'sailing' slumber
- Depress accelerator
- Wait for gearbox
- Gearbox wakes up, changes down 2 or 3 gears and puts the engine to around 4000rpm where there's no power.
- Choose between waiting till it changes up (which it resolutely won't do until 4500rpm, all the while being way beyond the usable power band) or start lifting to facilitate an upchange, hoping it'll only change up one gear.
- Gearbox changes up and, now at 50% throttle, begin applying more power progressively to avoid it downchanging.
- Meanwhile left floundering on the wrong side of the road.
The above sounds ridiculous doesn't it. And it is...the gearbox is frankly crap. Really, really crap. And that's before I mention the huge drivetrain thumps it elicits at random intervals. I do use Manual mode too, but the paddles are more a request than a demand; request a downchange and it refuses, then drops two gears. Same for upchanges.
I really did think I could do sensible for just 2 years, but I can't, I'm already planning what I should get as a replacement the day it leaves (current shortlist is Corvette, Mustang or M3
)Marc p said:
This strikes so many chords with me, now imagine my pain when that abysmal box is mated to an E220, sometimes I just want to get out and walk, it's the first time I got a car on lease and will maybe be the last time, I've not had it even a year and I have already been through the contract to see if there is any exit strategies(there isn't!), I'm stuck with it for 2 years, yes, it's a nice car that is very comfortable on the motorway with loads of useful gizzmos, but off the motorway it makes me want to just leave it and walk, my old E60 525d is 10 years older and so much of better car. If this was my only car, I would be suffering from depression.
I really did think I could do sensible for just 2 years, but I can't, I'm already planning what I should get as a replacement the day it leaves (current shortlist is Corvette, Mustang or M3 )
It sounds like we're both very much in the same boat (although I only have to live with my car for another 7 weeks or so - horray!). Good to hear I'm not the only one who finds the gearbox completely rubbish or, dare I say it, dangerous. There's nothing like real-world experience to understand these things. I really did think I could do sensible for just 2 years, but I can't, I'm already planning what I should get as a replacement the day it leaves (current shortlist is Corvette, Mustang or M3
)
I wish you luck choosing your next vehicle (nice selection you have there too!
). I am heading back to petrol and something with both decent power and a decent gearbox. Hallelujah! Sten. said:
It's quite amusing how people with limited knowledge or interest in cars do think an M sport BMW is some sort of indication of performance or power. When a friend saw my wifes new (company) 118d M Sport he remarked that it 'must go like s*** off a shovel' and was I jealous that she had a faster car. I drive a new X3 30d which I'm told does 0-60 in a fairly brisk 5.8 seconds, but as I chose anti-bling xLine spec on small wheels it goes completely under the radar. Which I like.
Do people actually talk about their car in this context? If someone asks what I drive I tell them a 3 series. I just don't get the whole kudos thing. Even more when you are talking to people who view cars in the respect of 'getting from a to b'. Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff