MX5 vs Elise - Debate
Discussion
heebeegeetee said:
Don't all cars have essentially the same geometry? Camber, caster, Ackerman and toe out, how much variance can there be against the vertical, especially when comparing cars of the same driven end? Isn't wheel offset the biggest variable?
Really, no, and even if two different cars run the exact same settings for camber/caster/toe, the layout of the suspension and a heap of other factors can make them handle & feel very differently. SpeedyDave said:
heebeegeetee said:
Don't all cars have essentially the same geometry? Camber, caster, Ackerman and toe out, how much variance can there be against the vertical, especially when comparing cars of the same driven end? Isn't wheel offset the biggest variable?
Really, no, and even if two different cars run the exact same settings for camber/caster/toe, the layout of the suspension and a heap of other factors can make them handle & feel very differently. 
Absolutely, yes. This is why setting up cars for handling and feedback is a rather tricky thing to do, especially when it's a road car and you've got primary and secondary ride to consider.sorry for the spelling etc but i was just trying to get my point across and it was really late (as it is now!) so it wasn`t a perfect post!
as for the elise spitting you off the road what i was getting at was as per most mid engined cars the transition from slide into spin is that much quicker if there is any weight transfer involved, as the weight of the engine will accelerate any yaw at the back of the car. Under power oversteer however it is easy to control and as long as you dont back off suddenley it is very progressive but you certainley have to be quicker to catch it if you go a little too far than a front engined rear drive car imho!
My point was that the MX5 is a lot easier to drive with abandon but in the elise you have to think about it more and it gives more feedback and can be made to go quicker which makes it more satisfying and has a lot more "seat of the pants" feel to it.
What let us not forget though, is the fact that the MX5 really is an amazing car for money and to be mentioned in the same breath as the elise tells people how good a drivers car it really is!
But....it isnt a Lotus Elise and that is the difference, i loved my MX5`s i really did and would have another tomorrow but as long as i can keep my elise im happy in the knowledge that i have car that is one of those motoring icons and will put a bigger smile on my face than any MX5 can, but i expect it to as it costs more!!!
as for the elise spitting you off the road what i was getting at was as per most mid engined cars the transition from slide into spin is that much quicker if there is any weight transfer involved, as the weight of the engine will accelerate any yaw at the back of the car. Under power oversteer however it is easy to control and as long as you dont back off suddenley it is very progressive but you certainley have to be quicker to catch it if you go a little too far than a front engined rear drive car imho!
My point was that the MX5 is a lot easier to drive with abandon but in the elise you have to think about it more and it gives more feedback and can be made to go quicker which makes it more satisfying and has a lot more "seat of the pants" feel to it.
What let us not forget though, is the fact that the MX5 really is an amazing car for money and to be mentioned in the same breath as the elise tells people how good a drivers car it really is!
But....it isnt a Lotus Elise and that is the difference, i loved my MX5`s i really did and would have another tomorrow but as long as i can keep my elise im happy in the knowledge that i have car that is one of those motoring icons and will put a bigger smile on my face than any MX5 can, but i expect it to as it costs more!!!
Well said 888, but for instance to me driving the Elise on the limit (track) is not RELATIVELY as satisfying as driving it below it (road), paradoxically, but perhaps I'm not such a great precision driver. And the MX5 on the road felt very good but not special, unfortunately not tracked one so far.
petrolhead888 said:
sorry for the spelling etc but i was just trying to get my point across and it was really late (as it is now!) so it wasn`t a perfect post!
as for the elise spitting you off the road what i was getting at was as per most mid engined cars the transition from slide into spin is that much quicker if there is any weight transfer involved, as the weight of the engine will accelerate any yaw at the back of the car. Under power oversteer however it is easy to control and as long as you dont back off suddenley it is very progressive but you certainley have to be quicker to catch it if you go a little too far than a front engined rear drive car imho!
My point was that the MX5 is a lot easier to drive with abandon but in the elise you have to think about it more and it gives more feedback and can be made to go quicker which makes it more satisfying and has a lot more "seat of the pants" feel to it.
What let us not forget though, is the fact that the MX5 really is an amazing car for money and to be mentioned in the same breath as the elise tells people how good a drivers car it really is!
But....it isnt a Lotus Elise and that is the difference, i loved my MX5`s i really did and would have another tomorrow but as long as i can keep my elise im happy in the knowledge that i have car that is one of those motoring icons and will put a bigger smile on my face than any MX5 can, but i expect it to as it costs more!!!
as for the elise spitting you off the road what i was getting at was as per most mid engined cars the transition from slide into spin is that much quicker if there is any weight transfer involved, as the weight of the engine will accelerate any yaw at the back of the car. Under power oversteer however it is easy to control and as long as you dont back off suddenley it is very progressive but you certainley have to be quicker to catch it if you go a little too far than a front engined rear drive car imho!
My point was that the MX5 is a lot easier to drive with abandon but in the elise you have to think about it more and it gives more feedback and can be made to go quicker which makes it more satisfying and has a lot more "seat of the pants" feel to it.
What let us not forget though, is the fact that the MX5 really is an amazing car for money and to be mentioned in the same breath as the elise tells people how good a drivers car it really is!
But....it isnt a Lotus Elise and that is the difference, i loved my MX5`s i really did and would have another tomorrow but as long as i can keep my elise im happy in the knowledge that i have car that is one of those motoring icons and will put a bigger smile on my face than any MX5 can, but i expect it to as it costs more!!!
You've picked up on something there that I meant to mention earlier. The Elise, particualrly the Mk1 has a bit of a reputation for snap oversteer but in my experience this is the only the case if one lifts off the throttle when fully committed to a corner. There are an awful lot of cars that will spin or threaten to spin under such circumstances. If you kick the back out under power (which isn't always very easy as traction is high and power is low) its suprisingly easy to catch and recover the slide cleanly. From everything I'd read before buying my Elise, that was something I definitely wasn't expecting. The MX5 is much easier again though.
petrolhead888 said:
ok ok listen people...........
Please take this that i am going to write from someone who has owned 2 mx5`s for a good few years and who did everything to them that i could to make them better without forced induction and who has now sold them to buy an elise..now i also work in the trade so get to drive some really tasty stuff sometimes and im a total motorsport fanatic, karter ,had rally cars etc etc and would drive the wheels off anything i can get my hands on!!! i also used to have a modified mk2 Mr2 turbo with 300 bhp that i cud hold full lock sideways when other people were spinning out as im a total driving anorak who reads up on friction circles and using yaw and braking to get car to slide etc etc!!!can drive front drive in anger hates fourwheel drive as its sanitised but love and only have rear drive cars! so please listen to what i have to say!!
Mx5- i drove one years ago and was astounded that i could get straight into the car and instantly provoke it using the weight transfer into full opposite lock slides in full control and just moderate it on the throttle it was amazing so i bought one for myself and read up on how to make them REALLY handle!! i downloaded some pretty extreme alignment settings and had zero toe in etc on the front for better turn in etc and reasonable good tyres suspension kit, adjustable anti-roll bars etc etc, but the thing with an mx5 is not to make it too sticky as you lose the ability to explore its amazing balance and composure on the limit weather you are driving with accurancy upto the limit of grip or you want to play and flick it into slides etc! now i have had a chevette HSR and a westfield also an RS2000 and can tell yas that the Mx5 beat them all hands down as a car to drive hard and over the limit its the composure that does it and the fact you can take absolute liberties with one!!! mine had full roll cages in them and bucket seats to hold you in place and lots of other little things to make the experience more fun!!! as a standard car they are good as a correctly modified car they are amazing!! but......they lack a certain sense of occaision that i just could not get my head around and that is why i wanted an elise!
Elise- got rid of mx5`s and bought an S1 elise with janspeed exhaust (really loud!lol!) and hurricane induction kit! so not the fastest! (done loads more since but this is not about that!)and the reason....sense of occasion! now the mx5 was a car you could flick one way and then the next to set up a slide athen just moderate the throttle for more or less sidewaysness! the elise , total different animal in that like the mr2 you have to set it up correctly and a lot more gently if you want it to slide and then like the Mr2 you have to be razor quick with your responses to catch it, but catch it you can and because it is harder this creates more satisfaction in the sense that you are doing something that is a higher , harder to reach goal! a bit like a 911 in that everyone knows an aircooled 911 its slow in fast out and dont lift mid bend etc etc but hey isnt it about the challenge that the rewards are higher when done right so this is why most drivers will prefer the mx5 and i dont blame them for that because you see it is a different kind of car in my opinion same concept yes an open top roadster but different in feel in every way possible!!! Mx5 steering ..really good nice and positive if a little short of feel miles better than a FWD car but.....the elise..well that cars steering wheel is alive in your hands, it talks to you like only a racing car could so there is the difference in steering the elise is in a different league!! again its about your senses and in an elise your senses are stirred more in it they just are! in my opinion the elise is about driving in a precise way generating maximum cornering speed using lines and setting the car up and feeling your way through and if your good then it is faster than an mx5 through them but you have to trust it and learn it, i dont think the elise is about getting it to slide its more about precision, with the mx5 you learn in 5 minutes! and with the mx5 you can just be a hooligan!!
sorry to drone on im trying to get my point across here as i really have driven both quite a lot in anger and i loved and still love mx5`s and as a car to go for a blast its a great car to drive!
so which ones the best?
mx5= a car to put a smile on your face, can slide at ridiculous angles and be brought back its like a Mk2 Rs2000 just begs to be driven on the throttle and isnt quick but doesnt really need to be as its so much fun , good steering but not the best and doesnt give you a sense of occaision
elise= the fact its hard to get into, rattles, wont slide as easy and feels like it might spit you off the road means it doesnt handle as well as an mx5 but ...for begginers. for experienced people its an amazing bit of kit with razor sharp talkative steering with a good balance if used properley, it has an amazing sense of occaision which doesnt wear off and sounds nice too! so the limits are harder to reach which might make people say the Mx5 is a better "handler" and they woudnt be too wrong but when you get it right and you delve deeper the elise is right up there with the very best and is more satisfying as a result of it being harder to learn!! so i think the elise is better but it is different!
thanks for reading!
Good post - enjoyed reading that Please take this that i am going to write from someone who has owned 2 mx5`s for a good few years and who did everything to them that i could to make them better without forced induction and who has now sold them to buy an elise..now i also work in the trade so get to drive some really tasty stuff sometimes and im a total motorsport fanatic, karter ,had rally cars etc etc and would drive the wheels off anything i can get my hands on!!! i also used to have a modified mk2 Mr2 turbo with 300 bhp that i cud hold full lock sideways when other people were spinning out as im a total driving anorak who reads up on friction circles and using yaw and braking to get car to slide etc etc!!!can drive front drive in anger hates fourwheel drive as its sanitised but love and only have rear drive cars! so please listen to what i have to say!!
Mx5- i drove one years ago and was astounded that i could get straight into the car and instantly provoke it using the weight transfer into full opposite lock slides in full control and just moderate it on the throttle it was amazing so i bought one for myself and read up on how to make them REALLY handle!! i downloaded some pretty extreme alignment settings and had zero toe in etc on the front for better turn in etc and reasonable good tyres suspension kit, adjustable anti-roll bars etc etc, but the thing with an mx5 is not to make it too sticky as you lose the ability to explore its amazing balance and composure on the limit weather you are driving with accurancy upto the limit of grip or you want to play and flick it into slides etc! now i have had a chevette HSR and a westfield also an RS2000 and can tell yas that the Mx5 beat them all hands down as a car to drive hard and over the limit its the composure that does it and the fact you can take absolute liberties with one!!! mine had full roll cages in them and bucket seats to hold you in place and lots of other little things to make the experience more fun!!! as a standard car they are good as a correctly modified car they are amazing!! but......they lack a certain sense of occaision that i just could not get my head around and that is why i wanted an elise!
Elise- got rid of mx5`s and bought an S1 elise with janspeed exhaust (really loud!lol!) and hurricane induction kit! so not the fastest! (done loads more since but this is not about that!)and the reason....sense of occasion! now the mx5 was a car you could flick one way and then the next to set up a slide athen just moderate the throttle for more or less sidewaysness! the elise , total different animal in that like the mr2 you have to set it up correctly and a lot more gently if you want it to slide and then like the Mr2 you have to be razor quick with your responses to catch it, but catch it you can and because it is harder this creates more satisfaction in the sense that you are doing something that is a higher , harder to reach goal! a bit like a 911 in that everyone knows an aircooled 911 its slow in fast out and dont lift mid bend etc etc but hey isnt it about the challenge that the rewards are higher when done right so this is why most drivers will prefer the mx5 and i dont blame them for that because you see it is a different kind of car in my opinion same concept yes an open top roadster but different in feel in every way possible!!! Mx5 steering ..really good nice and positive if a little short of feel miles better than a FWD car but.....the elise..well that cars steering wheel is alive in your hands, it talks to you like only a racing car could so there is the difference in steering the elise is in a different league!! again its about your senses and in an elise your senses are stirred more in it they just are! in my opinion the elise is about driving in a precise way generating maximum cornering speed using lines and setting the car up and feeling your way through and if your good then it is faster than an mx5 through them but you have to trust it and learn it, i dont think the elise is about getting it to slide its more about precision, with the mx5 you learn in 5 minutes! and with the mx5 you can just be a hooligan!!
sorry to drone on im trying to get my point across here as i really have driven both quite a lot in anger and i loved and still love mx5`s and as a car to go for a blast its a great car to drive!
so which ones the best?
mx5= a car to put a smile on your face, can slide at ridiculous angles and be brought back its like a Mk2 Rs2000 just begs to be driven on the throttle and isnt quick but doesnt really need to be as its so much fun , good steering but not the best and doesnt give you a sense of occaision
elise= the fact its hard to get into, rattles, wont slide as easy and feels like it might spit you off the road means it doesnt handle as well as an mx5 but ...for begginers. for experienced people its an amazing bit of kit with razor sharp talkative steering with a good balance if used properley, it has an amazing sense of occaision which doesnt wear off and sounds nice too! so the limits are harder to reach which might make people say the Mx5 is a better "handler" and they woudnt be too wrong but when you get it right and you delve deeper the elise is right up there with the very best and is more satisfying as a result of it being harder to learn!! so i think the elise is better but it is different!
thanks for reading!
Sam_68 said:
heebeegeetee said:
The only review i read of the MX5 based westfield reckoned it didn't drive as well as a standard MX5. 
Or as well as the standard car... Like I said, I'd rate the standard Westfield's steering as on a par with the MX5's. The MX5 based Westfield is, by all accounts, rather a disappointment.
heebeegeetee said:
Don't all cars have essentially the same geometry? Camber, caster, Ackerman and toe out, how much variance can there be against the vertical, especially when comparing cars of the same driven end? Isn't wheel offset the biggest variable?
Are you for real?!Sorry, but you've now blown all remaining credibility to your arguments!
.
I was just really thinking out loud, and thinking that the wheels on all cars are all pointing in roughly the same direction, and it would be interesting to see what the variances are between a good number of cars.
As you know, I've said on this thread that i've put a car through four-wheel alignment four times, and i think i may well be the only person on PH who persistently advises people that if they buy a car with adjustable alignment, even a brand new one, the very first thing they should do is get the alignment set by a reputable specialist, because until they do they have no idea of what precisely they are driving. Yes, it may well say Elise, Boxster or MX5 on the badges on the car, but owners should ensure that their car has the alignment settings of that car and not of something else or something random. It really is no exaggeration to say that this could save their lives.
With the Boxster, i became aware quite quickly that the ride quality wasn't what i thought it should be, so this helped hasten me to get the alignment checked. The car wasn't far out at all, and well within spec, but once it was set at its optimum the ride improved greatly. The reason why i think alignment can effect the ride quality is that if the wheels aren't pointing exactly where they should be, as the car goes over a bump the wheel can deflect in a manner in which it shouldn't. On mine the rear wheels were gaining too much toe-out on deflection.
It's interesting because on the Autocar article of best driver's car etc, where the MX5 had gone from 1st to 12th in one year, the way they describe their car's road behaviour is almost *exactly* like mine was before i got the set-up right. The magazine puts the drop in performance down to the fact that the world had moved on a lot in 1 year. Well, i think the Mk1 & 2 MX5 was available for about what, 15 or 16 years? Well if the world moved on a lot in one year, by rights after 15-16 years the MX5 should have been the modern equivalent of the MGB. But it wasn't.
I find it interesting because not even some of the most experienced journos in the game seem to be aware of the importance of correct alignment. Then again, thinking about ot, i guess the magazines just can't go down the path of checking the alignment of everey car they test. Obviously its up to the manufacturers to do that, but they don't, but it's us the consumer who loses out because it makes it harder for us to make informed choices.
So honestly Sam, i'm fully aware of the differences small adjustments can make.
RobM77 said:
.I remember one track day at Bedford Autodrome where the rain was so heavy you had to shout to converse in the garages, and I was the only car on the track, but I never came close to spinning once, and every little centimetre of understeer and oversteer was entirely intentional with loads of warning - my Caterham just wouldn't have been like that. .
Good points. You've reminded me that i've been in two very low grip situs with the Mazda, once at the 'ring in the wet on s
t tyres, and once in the middle of France in the snow. In fact i took some film on a little digicam of when i was in the snow, i'll edit a little bit and stick a couple of mins up, but at the mo i'm in the middle of some 'puter trouble so it will have to wait.Watching the bit of film reminded me though, that i had no understeer in the Mazda at all. The car was like it had a relationship between the right pedal and the steering wheel. My car is supercharged, and i just could not get traction at the rear wheels, and i'm trundling along slowly but no matter whether i was in 2nd, 3rd or 4th the rear just broke traction as i applied some gas.
I gotta be honest, i was absolutely bricking it at the time. It was the first day of a week in the French Alps which i had traveled to on my own just to go and have a weeks hoon. I had been looking forward to it so much that it hurt, and very thought of sliding slowly off the road into a ditch was too much for me to bear, so i was just absolutely crapping myself. Plus i was along way from home and the road was very, very quiet, like 4 cars in an hour quiet. Didn't see one single vehicle going my way.
JayKaybi said:
kambites said:
retrorider said:
you dont need earplugs in an MX5...;)
You don't need them in an Elise. They just help.
(Janspeed Supersport exhaust, induction kit, decat, and rear window removed for good measure)
kambites said:
JayKaybi said:
kambites said:
retrorider said:
you dont need earplugs in an MX5...;)
You don't need them in an Elise. They just help.
(Janspeed Supersport exhaust, induction kit, decat, and rear window removed for good measure)
I LOVE IT!
RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWARRRRRRR!!!!!
JayKaybi said:
Hair drier held up to a megaphone? 
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 14th January 17:19
kambites said:
JayKaybi said:
Hair drier held up to a megaphone? JayKaybi said:
Hmmm.... sounds pretty crap if you ask me. Not a nice note at all; just loud noise.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff