MX5 vs Elise - Debate

[Sam_68]

heebeegeetee said:

Don't all cars have essentially the same geometry? Camber, caster, Ackerman and toe out, how much variance can there be against the vertical, especially when comparing cars of the same driven end? Isn't wheel offset the biggest variable?

heebeegeetee said:

So honestly Sam, I'm fully aware of the differences small adjustments can make.

So which is it? Are they all the same, with only wheel offset making any difference, or are they all sensitive to the tiniest adjustments?

You're contradicting yourself, old boy.

[eowen]

mx5 and Elise are aimed at 2 different markets. Comparing them is pointless.

[Risotto]

Los Angeles said:

I'll throw this into the debate:

If the two roadsters are essentially the same answer to the same question, lightness and fine handling, one has to question the styling of the Lotus.

It must rank as the campest design ever created for a small roadster. ("Camp" defined as over-design.) And that in itself raises another question: Why does it have to be that shape? If the MX5 can do with uncluttered lines and curves why the plethora of vents and abutting angles of the Elise?

I agree that the S1 Elise looks a little comical and over-styled. To my mind, they tried to cram too many details in as far as the exterior is concerned. Jaguar seemed to do the same with the X-Type. The fact that it resembles a beach buggy at the front doesn't help either. The interior is quite the opposite though - very simple and cohesive. Although the S2 has some poor angles, I think it was a step in the right direction.

I would defend some of the slats and holes though; being mid-engined, it isn't enough to have a single, all purpose hole in the front.

Edited by Risotto on Wednesday 14th January 18:41

[Sam_68]

Los Angeles said:

If the two roadsters are essentially the same answer to the same question, lightness and fine handling, one has to question the styling of the Lotus.

Why does it have to be that shape? If the MX5 can do with uncluttered lines and curves why the plethora of vents and abutting angles of the Elise?

Looks are always going to be a matter of personal opinion, but if you want to know what a small, mid-engined car with 'uncluttered lines' looks like, you only need to find an MGF. The answer, unless you're very careful, is 'a bit bland and dumpy looking'.

They're not really the answer to the same question, either; the MX5 was essentially designed to be a trad British roadster with added reliability. Light weight was never particularly high on the designers' agenda.

It was also designed with a high level of everyday usability in mind (again, overcoming the traditional British sportscar shortcomings of leaky roofs, poor heating/demisting and poor interior ergonomics), whereas the Elise was designed as a weekend car suitable for road and track use.

[heebeegeetee]

Sam_68 said:

heebeegeetee said:

Don't all cars have essentially the same geometry? Camber, caster, Ackerman and toe out, how much variance can there be against the vertical, especially when comparing cars of the same driven end? Isn't wheel offset the biggest variable?

heebeegeetee said:

So honestly Sam, I'm fully aware of the differences small adjustments can make.

So which is it? Are they all the same, with only wheel offset making any difference, or are they all sensitive to the tiniest adjustments?

You're contradicting yourself, old boy.

Whatever.

You seem to be looking for 'arguments' (your word) where they don't exist.

[Sam_68]

heebeegeetee said:

You seem to be looking for 'arguments' (your word) where they don't exist.

Not at all, old chap. I just find it increasingly ammusing the number of people who feel qualified to offer 'expert' comparisons on cars they've never even driven, and then try to back them up with technobabble that they're clearly clueless about.

[heebeegeetee]

Sam_68 said:

Not at all, old chap. I just find it increasingly ammusing the number of people who feel qualified to offer 'expert' comparisons on cars they've never even driven, and then try to back them up with technobabble that they're clearly clueless about.

You're right, you win, i know nothing, nothing at all. I've never driven anything or been anywhere.

Mind you, if you can quote one piece of expert opinion of mine on the Elise to back your assertion up, i'd be grateful. I said right from the start that i haven't driven an elise and i say i haven't offered one opinion about them, only from what i've seen, read and heard. ALL i've done, AFAIAA, is ask the odd question or two.

You're spoiling a good thread Sam. You've gone the usual PH way, looking for an argument where there isn't one.

[Sam_68]

Los Angeles said:

I accept that, but it still doesn't quite account for its looks. If the MX5 can be described as a hairdresser's car the Elise justifiably can be called sheer camp!

Like I said, looks are very much a personal thing.

I wouldn't call the Elise pretty, but neither to I find either variant particulalry offensive. I prefer it to the nearest comparable mid-engined cars, though - the MGF (bland) and Toyota MR2 Roadster (ok, but a bit gawky).

The first two generations of MX5 are neat enough, if a bit bland, but personally I think they've lost their way a bit with the bubble arches on the current model.

Not that it's an accusation that I'd level at the MX5, but you can go too far with 'butch'. It could be said that some cars are such blatant penis extensions that they're the automotive equivalent of going out clubbing wearing leathers, posing pouch, peaked cap and a big moustache...

I felt less comfortable being seen in a TVR than I do in either an MX5 or an Elise, simply because it's not unreasonable for people to assume that if you're trying that hard, you must have a hell of a lot to compensate for.

[heebeegeetee]

What's your experience with an MX5 Sam?

[Sam_68]

heebeegeetee said:

What's your experience with an MX5 Sam?

I've not driven the latest generation.

I had a friend with a Mk. 1 who let me borrow it for weekends away sometimes (better luggage space than the sort of stuff I usually drive!) and have done comparative testing of the Mk. 1 vs. the MGF. And I had a girlfriend with a Mk. 2. I'd guess I've maybe done a couple of thousand miles in each, but admittedly my attempts to form a judgement on the Mk. 2 were clouded by a strange whining noise from the passenger seat, most of the time.

Nowhere near as much experience as you, obviously, but enough to form reasonable judgements and infinitely more experience than you've had with the Elise, by your own admission.

[Sam_68]

heebeegeetee said:

Mind you, if you can quote one piece of expert opinion of mine on the Elise to back your assertion up, i'd be grateful.

heebeegeetee said:

the Elise being mid/rear (as in more rear than mid) engined, it's harder to jump in and find the limits quickly enough.

heebeegeetee said:

Let me make myself clear. I think if you put two good examples of the cars around a good test track, with some cones and slaloms etc, i think (and would expect) the Elise to be better. But i think if you go for a good long drive over alpine roads, or scottish or possibly even Welsh roads, i think the picture becomes much less clear, and I say that both for the handling and the steering. Certainly for the handling, maybe less so than for the steering, but i still don't think there'd be a huge difference. I'd certainly go so far as to say that around alpine hairpins etc, i reckon the 5 would be more fun than the Elise

HTH

[jackal]

Sam_68 said:

but enough to form reasonable judgements and infinitely more experience than you've had with the Elise, by your own admission.

where reasonable judgement = coming from someone who reckons a westfield has as much steering feel as a caterham



IN SUMMARY: 'IGNORE USER'

[RobM77]

Sam_68 said:

heebeegeetee said:

Mind you, if you can quote one piece of expert opinion of mine on the Elise to back your assertion up, i'd be grateful.

heebeegeetee said:

the Elise being mid/rear (as in more rear than mid) engined, it's harder to jump in and find the limits quickly enough.

heebeegeetee said:

Let me make myself clear. I think if you put two good examples of the cars around a good test track, with some cones and slaloms etc, i think (and would expect) the Elise to be better. But i think if you go for a good long drive over alpine roads, or scottish or possibly even Welsh roads, i think the picture becomes much less clear, and I say that both for the handling and the steering. Certainly for the handling, maybe less so than for the steering, but i still don't think there'd be a huge difference. I'd certainly go so far as to say that around alpine hairpins etc, i reckon the 5 would be more fun than the Elise

HTH

Now I love the MX5, as I've already said, but more fun around alpine roads?!! Hard to find the limit? How bizarre.

Firstly, the Elise (S2) is not a track setup car that excels on track and is compromised elsewhere, like a stripped out Caterham or Ariel Atom; The Elise is an amazing road car, the best I've driven in fact. The ride is utterly superb, the steering utterly flawless and the whole package just gels superbly.

Sedcondly, as for jumping in and finding the limit quickly, the Elise gives a good connection with the road and has non assisted controls, so it's just like leaping into a kart, a Formula Ford or a Caterham - the limit's clear and obvious and you find it immediately. "Adjusting" to cars is in reality just a term used for modern cars with power assisted controls and soft bushes etc referring to learning to fill the gaps in feedback with trust. I'm not saying the MX5 doesn't manage this well, as it does (in fact it's one of the easiest cars to just jump in and drive fast), but the Elise is peerless at it.

[eowen]

[heebeegeetee]

Sam_68 said:

heebeegeetee said:

the Elise being mid/rear (as in more rear than mid) engined, it's harder to jump in and find the limits quickly enough.

Ah, the dear old selective quoting technique, used almost exclusively by those who are wrong. What i actually said was

heebeegeetee said:

I think you've got that the wrong way round. An MX5 in anybodies hands could be pedalled quickly enough i would say, but the Elise being mid/rear (as in more rear than mid) engined, it's harder to jump in and find the limits quickly enough.

Note the words "I think" and "I would say". beat me up for not saying similar for a third time though by all means. In the very same post I also said

heebeegeetee said:

Let me make myself clear. I think if you put two good examples of the cars around a good test track, with some cones and slaloms etc, i think (and would expect) the Elise to be better. But i think if you go for a good long drive over alpine roads, or scottish or possibly even Welsh roads, i think the picture becomes much less clear, and I say that both for the handling and the steering. Certainly for the handling, maybe less so than for the steering, but i still don't think there'd be a huge difference. I'd certainly go so far as to say that around alpine hairpins etc, i reckon the 5 would be more fun than the Elise

Please note frequent use of the term "I think". So in total i said " think", as in, "expressing thought" some seven times in just those two paragraphs alone. So I have not given any "expert" opinions on the Elise at all Sam, and you are quite wrong.

Let me say though why i said that second paragraph. I have driven my MX5 over proper french alpine Monte-Carlo rally roads for ten days solid, both in supercharged and n/a state. I have driven my Boxster over the same roads for a week. On those proper, proper roads, the like of which do not exist in the UK (and i've driven pretty much all the UK, the lakes is the only area i haven't done) there is absolutely sod all to choose between those two cars. The Boxster gets you to the alps better, it carries luggage better, it holds more fuel which is a huge advantage, it is faster on the alpine roads though by very little, and the Boxster has a fantastic engine compared to the Mazdas weedy four cylinder.

But more fun? No. I can drift round hairpins in the Mazda, the Boxster has too much grip. The Mx5 is smaller, lighter and just more chuckable than the Boxster, so i can categorically state that once you're up in those mountains, there's next to damn all to choose between them. I am already plotting my next alpine sortie, and i can lay my hand on my heart and say in absolute honesty that i'm seriously thinking of taking the Mazda again.

So, I question Sam when he says the elise is "hands down" better when it comes to handling and fun 'cos the Boxster emphatically ain't, and i don't think an Elise is hands down better than a Boxster. If i can go quicker than numerous Elises in a bog standard Mazda at a Lotus track session, and i'm absolutely nothing special as a driver, then i struggle to see where the Elises were "hands down" better than me. As i said before, when i went to a Mazda track evening at the same place, there was one MX5 that definitely "hands down" better than me and he claimed the car was unmodified. I couldn't verify, but it had no external mods, was on original wheels and wasn't lowered

RobM77 said:

Sedcondly, as for jumping in and finding the limit quickly, the Elise gives a good connection with the road and has non assisted controls, so it's just like leaping into a kart, a Formula Ford or a Caterham - the limit's clear and obvious and you find it immediately. "Adjusting" to cars is in reality just a term used for modern cars with power assisted controls and soft bushes etc referring to learning to fill the gaps in feedback with trust. I'm not saying the MX5 doesn't manage this well, as it does (in fact it's one of the easiest cars to just jump in and drive fast), but the Elise is peerless at it.

I'm sure you're dead right. but Sam said

Sam_68 said:

Unless you lift off sharply, mid bend.

...and you could say the same about the S2 Elise.

If you're using the 'on-limit' definition of 'good handling', the difference is not just predictability, it's the rate of transition.

Transverse mid-engined cars like the Elise and the Lancia Stratos tend to go from neutral to dramatic oversteer within a very narrow bandwidth of lateral G. In plain English, when they let go, they let go suddenly. Low profile tyres tend to exacerbate these characteristics, too.

Cars like the MX5 and Elan have a much milder, more progressive transition from understeer, through neutral, to oversteer, so they are much easier to balance where you want them, by juggling steering and throttle.

Sam_68 said:

Yes, I think you're probably right on both counts. You need quick wits, if you're going to push it to the limits in an Elise and unless you're exceptionally good, it gets too tricky to be much fun. Most Elise drivers quite sensibly concentrate on improving their consistency and precision of line whilst remaining comfortably within the cars limits, whereas the MX5 is easier and more fun to drive right up to the edge of its available grip.

Sam_68 said:

Don't believe everything you hear about the Elise. In 30K+ miles in a couple of S1's (yes, the ones that suffer dangerous snap oversteer, remember?) I had the back end step out on me once when I didn't provoke it (accelerating hard onto a wet motorway slip road and easily caught)

But other owners infer that Elises can be as benign as MX5s. This is probably the reality of life with cars that have adjustable suspension. In the pile of mags i fetched out of my loft t'other day was EVO's long term review of the Boxster which refers to an edginess over 100mph. Christ, mine isn't, it's quite the opposite. The one area where the car has deeply, deeply impressed me is its sheer stability at well over the ton. On one rather silly run i did i was on a dc going up a steep hill, passing trucks, over the crest and down some sweepers at over a ton and a half and i was just thinking, "wow, this car could get me into a hell of a lot of trouble". It was just so easy. But my car had been on the alignment pads and EVOs car hadn't as far as i could ascertain.

Sam, i'm still curious as to your experience with MX5s. Unlike me regarding the Elise, you've told me a lot about what they actually do do and don't, but you haven't made one reference to driving one nor to owning one in your profile.I do hope you're not actually guilty of what you've wrongly accused me of. I also notice that with all the cars you've mentioned, you haven't talked about your experiences getting your alignments done, so I do hope you're not telling me all about cars that you haven't ascertained that the wheels are definitely pointing to where they should be.

I do feel i need to add though, i'm not knocking Elises. I like them very much indeed, I *always* look at them when i see one and i also like the VX models too. Currently reading the Europa article in the latest EVO, thought it a shame that Lotus brought a model out that wasn't well received, praps its better now.

But I like Lotuses. They are superb enthusiast cars. I'm just simply recounting my experiences with MX5s and my thoughts on the subject of 'fun' and 'handling' generally. I like 'handling'. I like small cars.

Edited by heebeegeetee on Wednesday 14th January 23:14

[Sam_68]

heebeegeetee said:

...you haven't made one reference to driving one nor to owning one in your profile.

I only list the cars I've owned in my profile, and I've only got round to listing maybe 2/3rds of those, so far...

Before my architectural career became too profitable to 'waste' time on anything else, I used to do bit of freelance journalism and also do chassis set-up, as part of my living. As a result, I've been fortunate enough to drive quite an extensive selection of sporting machinery over the years.

I try to experience as many cars as I can, so to list everything I've ever driven would be just about impossible, if only 'cos my memory's not that good any more. Suffice it to say that they run from Fiat Pandas and Hillman Imps at one end of the scale, to Pilbeam single seaters at the other...

heebeegeetee said:

I also notice that with all the cars you've mentioned, you haven't talked about your experiences getting your alignments done...

See above. I don't 'get my alignments done'. I do them myself.

On the subject of which (since you've repeatedly made such a big issue of set-up being correct), it's worth pointing out that the cars we're talking about really aren't that adjustable, anyway, unless you start modifying them (in which case it's pretty pointless using them as a basis for comparison)... the Elise is only adjustable for camber, caster and toe, for example. No provision for even basic stuff like ride height, damping, corner weighting or ARB, unless you start bolting on aftermarket goodies. Ditto the MX5.

I seem to recall

you said:

Well, i've driven quite a few MX5's now, but only 2 of them have been right. Mine, and my pals 1.6.

I actually find that quite a damning indictment of a mass-market car, with limited range of suspension adjustment, most of which are driven by non-enthusiasts and, if they ever get their geo checked at all, are likely to have it done by a bunch of half-educated muppets at Kwik-fit or a Mazda dealer.

As to breakaway characteristics...

Yes, when the Elise lets go, you have to be reasonably quick and confident to hold the slide. But the quality of chassis feedback as it approaches breakaway is such that you get better warning than you do in the vast majority of cars (including the MX, good as it is) and, let's be honest, if you're not quick and confident in your reactions, you shouldn't be provoking slides anyway.

[heebeegeetee]

Fair enough. The adjustments on the Elise, i assume you're talking about front and back?

I can confirm that the characteristics of the MX5 can be changed quite markedly whilst still remaining within the manufacturers tolerances, which personally, i don't think that should be. *Personally*, i find the ability to make such adjustments is really a PITA and i'm not sure it should be allowed, not in the UK anyway because it can be so hard to get anything done properly these days. I certainly think 95% of the garage trade at least, can't be trusted to do it properly. But this is another whole subject. Certainly a kwik-fit fitter can turn a car into a killer very easily.

[Sam_68]

heebeegeetee said:

heebeegeetee said:

Let me make myself clear. I think if you put two good examples of the cars around a good test track, with some cones and slaloms etc, i think (and would expect) the Elise to be better. But i think if you go for a good long drive over alpine roads, or scottish or possibly even Welsh roads, i think the picture becomes much less clear, and I say that both for the handling and the steering. Certainly for the handling, maybe less so than for the steering, but i still don't think there'd be a huge difference. I'd certainly go so far as to say that around alpine hairpins etc, i reckon the 5 would be more fun than the Elise

Please note frequent use of the term "I think". So in total i said " think", as in, "expressing thought" some seven times in just those two paragraphs alone. So I have not given any "expert" opinions on the Elise at all Sam, and you are quite wrong.

Ultimately, everything anyone says on these forums must be taken as nothing more than personal opinion. I don't preface everything I say with 'I think' or 'in my opinion', because I assume people have enough intelligence to take that as read. It's up to other forum members to judge for themselves what weight to attach to another member's comments and therein lies the problem... if you fail to take proper notice of all the 'I thinks', the depth and detail of your statements would lead many people to assume that you actually know what you're talking about (and that's a compliment on your writing, by the way).

...but so long as we're absolutely clear: you're saying everything you've said on this thread is purely unsubstantiated opinion, based on no direct experience whatsoever of the Elise?

Edited by Sam_68 on Thursday 15th January 00:06

[Sam_68]

heebeegeetee said:

The adjustments on the Elise, i assume you're talking about front and back?

Yes. Apart from caster, obviously.

And yes, you can feel the difference even within the narrow range of the factory settings (particularly for toe settings). But to refer to the Elise and MX5 as 'adjustable cars' is somewhat misleading. I standard form, they're no more adjustable than the majority of mass production cars.

[heebeegeetee]

Sam_68 said:

...but so long as we're absolutely clear: you're saying everything you've said on this thread is purely unsubstantiated opinion, based on no direct experience whatsoever of the Elise?

At the end of the day, does it matter? i think it's a shame that what i thought was an enjoyable thread has to be reduced to bickering just like almost every thread on PH does. I think it's a shame.

Aren't all of opinions unsubstantiated, if you think about it? I mean, who are we? We don't even use our real names.

I've no doubt that if we all spent our time going over everyones posts with fine toothcomb we could bicker all day long, but what is the point.

But just in case i haven't made myself clear, and i don't see anyone else complaining, and i did say right from the off that i haven't driven an Elise, that as far as i can tell i haven't made one single factual or actual statement about the handling characteristics of the Elise. As far as i know, and i certainly had no intention or desire to mislead anyone (and i don't think i have), every single statement i have made pertaining to the MX5 and the Boxster is from my own personal experience and that is what i have restricted my statements to. ALL of my statements relating to the Elise have only been my thoughts because as i said right from the off, i haven't driven one. I add to that all the stuff i've read both in mags, books and the postings from owners such as yourself, plus what i see for myself at places like the Donny track day - i watch the behaviour of the cars in front and behind.

When i say something that i feel i know to be certain, such as my comments re the Boxster and MX5 in the alps, then i make those comments with certainty. When i am expressing thought and or opinions that i don't know to be certain, then yes i do and always will preface those comments with phrases such as "I think" or "I reckon" or "I would say" and i always will do because i specifically want to avoid giving the impression that i am speaking from knowledge.


On one of your posts on page 7 Sam, you agree with my thoughts so it seems that the fact that i haven't driven an Elise didn't matter then. But i would also say that the vein of your posts re the elise changed over the course of the thread, so i don't think you've been consistent. I also don't think that you have driven an MX5 that you *knew* the alignment to be correct, although if you've driven several and feel that you've built a consistent picture up from those cars, then that's fair enough. The scope of adjustment on those cars is basic of course (though exceptional for a budget road car imo, or certainly was in 1989), but i *know* (not "think", *know*) that an MX5 can be changed from being a very mundane and ordinary drive to something that is full of feel and zap. I know this because i have experienced it.

When i see or hear comments that surprise me i will say so and express my doubts. We all see plenty of these type of comments on PH and there is no problem with discussing them. For instance on the motorsport forums you get people saying stuff like "Lewis Hamilton is nothing special" and so even though i personally have never raced against him i will nevertheless say something like "well i've been a fan of the sport for 30 years and i've never seen anything like it".

I expressed some doubt over your comment that the Elise is "hands down" better. That came purely from my experience at Donny. I didn't see anything that made me think "wow". I felt exactly the same when i saw all the modified MX5's (well, most, if not all) at the MX5 evening bumbling around and chucking out smoke and spinning off and stuff, but when i saw an old, red, early standard looking MX5 streak down the craners like i don't know what, then take the old hairpin in a lovely nice slight oversteer stance, and then watch this car slowly continue to pull away from me, then i did think "wow" and yes that car was hands down better than mine, and so was its driver. So i consider i can tell the difference.

You may well be right. You may well be right that an Elise is hands down better than the MX5 when it comes to handling and having fun, but if it is, i'm going to be very very surprised. I'm going to wonder how come no experienced and trustworthy journalist has made it this plainly known up until yet because the Mazda will be 20 years old this year.

Final thought: Every car is a compromise. You have some steering feel that actually has no consequence out on the road, but according to you the Elise can be lairy if you back off mid-corner, but the MX5 isn't. That could have a consequence.