RE: Audi unveils its new S3
Discussion
I've been reading this thread and wondering if people drive these cars to their strengths or simply don't adjust their driving style based on the car they are driving.
In my experience driving the original S3 for a few miles it was very different to how you would drive a FWD only or RWD car.
S3 on approach / entry to a corner you would have got all the slowing down out of the way and if anything be going slower than needed, then hold the power on all the way through and out of the corner. This was fun if you got it right, well at least I thought it was in my car. It would also go sideways but it seems I'm outnumbered somewhat on that point, however maybe that's because mine was an original car without ESP.
In a RWD car, especially in my M5 you'd be going into and through the corner on balanced throttle and the fun comes from deciding how brave you are getting back on the power on the exit from the corner or the resulting mess you have to clear up by getting on the power to early.
They are different, that doesn't by default the Audis aren't fun, however as I said that's just my opinion. I'd like to have a go in a new one to see how it compares to my old 8L.
Please do share with us what car you have spent your own money on?
In my experience driving the original S3 for a few miles it was very different to how you would drive a FWD only or RWD car.
S3 on approach / entry to a corner you would have got all the slowing down out of the way and if anything be going slower than needed, then hold the power on all the way through and out of the corner. This was fun if you got it right, well at least I thought it was in my car. It would also go sideways but it seems I'm outnumbered somewhat on that point, however maybe that's because mine was an original car without ESP.
In a RWD car, especially in my M5 you'd be going into and through the corner on balanced throttle and the fun comes from deciding how brave you are getting back on the power on the exit from the corner or the resulting mess you have to clear up by getting on the power to early.
They are different, that doesn't by default the Audis aren't fun, however as I said that's just my opinion. I'd like to have a go in a new one to see how it compares to my old 8L.
SonicHedgeHog said:
DoubleSix said:
I've argued that the faults of the car are numerous but arguing the car is overpriced is a bit silly.
Price is subjective and value us determined by market forces, the fact that Audi do the volumes they do would suggest they are not overpriced!! If Audi were struggling to move them then that would be a different matter.
Ultimately one mans expensive is another mans cheap.
I disagree with that. Just because people are prepared to buy them does not make them fairly priced. Many car buyers are clueless or have no choice (company cars). Everyone on this website knows there is not £40k+ worth of design and engineering in this car. If Subaru can do it for under £30k that is blindingly obvious. What this car is is a £30k car with a £10k badge on the front. That makes it overpriced.Price is subjective and value us determined by market forces, the fact that Audi do the volumes they do would suggest they are not overpriced!! If Audi were struggling to move them then that would be a different matter.
Ultimately one mans expensive is another mans cheap.
SonicHedgeHog said:
You're missing the point. How many wings and spoilers the Impreza has is irrelevant. The point is that it is every bit as well built as the S3. The only significant difference is the quality of the interior trim. But that is not enough to justify the difference in price. And for what it's worth I didn't think the Impreza was that fantastic either and I don't own one so I don't have an agenda.
You don't have to be a genius to work out why people buy Audis. Most buyers will see one in a car park or have to choose from a list of company cars and simply think, yeah, that looks nice I'll have one of those. Anyone who spends any time researching cars knows Audi's failings and isn't seduced by the window dressing, or if they are, they only make the mistake once.
This car is overpriced and no one has yet been able to argue otherwise.
And before someone else asks, yes, I have driven a lot of Audis. I get invited to a good number or corporate track days so I get to drive a lot of cars.
I'm sorry, but have you seen the price of a new WRX STI recently..? Only just has it become £27k from £33k after a £6k price-cut. It was actually more expensive than the current 8P S3.You don't have to be a genius to work out why people buy Audis. Most buyers will see one in a car park or have to choose from a list of company cars and simply think, yeah, that looks nice I'll have one of those. Anyone who spends any time researching cars knows Audi's failings and isn't seduced by the window dressing, or if they are, they only make the mistake once.
This car is overpriced and no one has yet been able to argue otherwise.
And before someone else asks, yes, I have driven a lot of Audis. I get invited to a good number or corporate track days so I get to drive a lot of cars.
Alucidnation said:
Yes, of course, they are s
t at getting the rear end out, but why would you want to in a 4WD????
I mean, what did you really think the system was designed for?
So many people completely mis the point.
You'd best include Nissan in that point, considering they engineered the GT-R to kick it's back end out under power. And why did they do that?t at getting the rear end out, but why would you want to in a 4WD????I mean, what did you really think the system was designed for?
So many people completely mis the point.
Becuase it's fun.
Not a word I would ever assosciate with an Audi mind.....
SonicHedgeHog said:
I disagree with that. Just because people are prepared to buy them does not make them fairly priced. Many car buyers are clueless or have no choice (company cars). Everyone on this website knows there is not £40k+ worth of design and engineering in this car. If Subaru can do it for under £30k that is blindingly obvious. What this car is is a £30k car with a £10k badge on the front. That makes it overpriced.
Overpriced in your opinion - it is subjective.The market differs with your POV and recent sales success indicates that many people feel the price premium is worth it - otherwise they simply would not buy Audi's.
Like it or not, cars or not commodities.
It may be a dirty word on here but the brand counts for a lot.
Otherwise Nissan would be selling a lot more GTR's than Porsche 911's.
Objectively the GTR is a far more capable car for a lot less money. But people buy into the whole Porsche brand, the heritage, status (sad but true) and let's not forget the aesthetics.
The PH massive get very animated when they hear talk of 'brands'. The concensus being that it's all marketing bullsh!te.
Fair enough, but I bet if you were to walk around their houses (thru-the-keyhole style) you'd find them rammed with brand leaders: Dyson vacuums, Heinz Ketchup, Stella Artois, Toilet Duck, Fairy Liquid etc. etc.
Brand is also why you don't like Audi's. You don't like the Audi styling, you don't place much value on a quality interior and you're not concerned with status. Audi will never be the brand for you.
Nothing wrong with that but it is a personal choice not a definitive statement of fact that their cars or overpriced or not worth it.
After all, that would be a hugely arrogant assertion
Waugh-terfall said:
I'm sorry, but have you seen the price of a new WRX STI recently..? Only just has it become £27k from £33k after a £6k price-cut. It was actually more expensive than the current 8P S3.
Well of course I have. Only a total idiot would compare the price of two cars without knowing the price of one of them. We're not comparing the Subaru with the outgoing S3. We're comparing it with the new one which is overpriced. Maldini35 said:
Overpriced in your opinion - it is subjective.
The market differs with your POV and recent sales success indicates that many people feel the price premium is worth it - otherwise they simply would not buy Audi's.
Like it or not, cars or not commodities.
It may be a dirty word on here but the brand counts for a lot.
Otherwise Nissan would be selling a lot more GTR's than Porsche 911's.
Objectively the GTR is a far more capable car for a lot less money. But people buy into the whole Porsche brand, the heritage, status (sad but true) and let's not forget the aesthetics.
The PH massive get very animated when they hear talk of 'brands'. The concensus being that it's all marketing bullsh!te.
Fair enough, but I bet if you were to walk around their houses (thru-the-keyhole style) you'd find them rammed with brand leaders: Dyson vacuums, Heinz Ketchup, Stella Artois, Toilet Duck, Fairy Liquid etc. etc.
Brand is also why you don't like Audi's. You don't like the Audi styling, you don't place much value on a quality interior and you're not concerned with status. Audi will never be the brand for you.
Nothing wrong with that but it is a personal choice not a definitive statement of fact that their cars or overpriced or not worth it.
After all, that would be a hugely arrogant assertion
I totally get the brand thing. I'd normally be typing in my MacBook but today I'm on my iPhone. The difference is, however, that Apple products are consistently rated as the best in class. Yes, they look nice, but so do other computers which don't sell as well. The market differs with your POV and recent sales success indicates that many people feel the price premium is worth it - otherwise they simply would not buy Audi's.
Like it or not, cars or not commodities.
It may be a dirty word on here but the brand counts for a lot.
Otherwise Nissan would be selling a lot more GTR's than Porsche 911's.
Objectively the GTR is a far more capable car for a lot less money. But people buy into the whole Porsche brand, the heritage, status (sad but true) and let's not forget the aesthetics.
The PH massive get very animated when they hear talk of 'brands'. The concensus being that it's all marketing bullsh!te.
Fair enough, but I bet if you were to walk around their houses (thru-the-keyhole style) you'd find them rammed with brand leaders: Dyson vacuums, Heinz Ketchup, Stella Artois, Toilet Duck, Fairy Liquid etc. etc.
Brand is also why you don't like Audi's. You don't like the Audi styling, you don't place much value on a quality interior and you're not concerned with status. Audi will never be the brand for you.
Nothing wrong with that but it is a personal choice not a definitive statement of fact that their cars or overpriced or not worth it.
After all, that would be a hugely arrogant assertion
The issue I have with this particular Audi is that it is neither the best looking (I know looks are subjective but good grief this is dull) or the best to drive (how many of us would bet their house that this is going to get rave reviews?). The objective of this car is to hide its price behind a nice interior and a fancy badge. It's something VW are really good at and people keep falling for it.
nonuts said:
Please do share with us what car you have spent your own money on?
Well having sold my Griffith last year I now find myself in the fortunate position of trundling around in an M3CSL. So I'm afraid you won't be able to use my car as a way of belittling my opinion. You'll have to think of something else.SonicHedgeHog said:
I disagree with that. Just because people are prepared to buy them does not make them fairly priced. Many car buyers are clueless or have no choice (company cars). Everyone on this website knows there is not £40k+ worth of design and engineering in this car. If Subaru can do it for under £30k that is blindingly obvious. What this car is is a £30k car with a £10k badge on the front. That makes it overpriced.
Well sorry mate but you dont really understand (basic!) economics then.If i do a turd, roll it in glitter, and sell it for a tenner then that is what its worth! The fact that i can produce them for little or no cost is not really relevant.
SonicHedgeHog said:
I totally get the brand thing. I'd normally be typing in my MacBook but today I'm on my iPhone. The difference is, however, that Apple products are consistently rated as the best in class. Yes, they look nice, but so do other computers which don't sell as well.
The issue I have with this particular Audi is that it is neither the best looking (I know looks are subjective but good grief this is dull) or the best to drive (how many of us would bet their house that this is going to get rave reviews?). The objective of this car is to hide its price behind a nice interior and a fancy badge. It's something VW are really good at and people keep falling for it.
Thinking about it- I'd put Audi in exactly the same league as Apple in the way they have both become.The issue I have with this particular Audi is that it is neither the best looking (I know looks are subjective but good grief this is dull) or the best to drive (how many of us would bet their house that this is going to get rave reviews?). The objective of this car is to hide its price behind a nice interior and a fancy badge. It's something VW are really good at and people keep falling for it.
Both started out as changing the game in there respected industries (Audi with the Quattro and Apple with user friendly touch screen devices) Instant hits and created a huge following....
Now they have there fans they don't need to change the look of there designs that much from previous models- but if you speak to the purists, there is a better model (phone/tablet or car) out there to buy and even for a cheaper price.
E.g the Iphone 5 model is just 'keeping up' with what's currently on the market....whilst this Audi S3 is also 'keeping up' with what's out there.
The 16GB phone looks the same as the 64GB.....just like this S3 looks the same as the cheaper S line model.
I don't see why everyone is getting that hacked off or surprised about the price? The S3 has always been one of, if not the highest priced hot hatches out there for the past 13 years.
SonicHedgeHog said:
Maldini35 said:
Overpriced in your opinion - it is subjective.
The market differs with your POV and recent sales success indicates that many people feel the price premium is worth it - otherwise they simply would not buy Audi's.
Like it or not, cars or not commodities.
It may be a dirty word on here but the brand counts for a lot.
Otherwise Nissan would be selling a lot more GTR's than Porsche 911's.
Objectively the GTR is a far more capable car for a lot less money. But people buy into the whole Porsche brand, the heritage, status (sad but true) and let's not forget the aesthetics.
The PH massive get very animated when they hear talk of 'brands'. The concensus being that it's all marketing bullsh!te.
Fair enough, but I bet if you were to walk around their houses (thru-the-keyhole style) you'd find them rammed with brand leaders: Dyson vacuums, Heinz Ketchup, Stella Artois, Toilet Duck, Fairy Liquid etc. etc.
Brand is also why you don't like Audi's. You don't like the Audi styling, you don't place much value on a quality interior and you're not concerned with status. Audi will never be the brand for you.
Nothing wrong with that but it is a personal choice not a definitive statement of fact that their cars or overpriced or not worth it.
After all, that would be a hugely arrogant assertion
I totally get the brand thing. I'd normally be typing in my MacBook but today I'm on my iPhone. The difference is, however, that Apple products are consistently rated as the best in class. Yes, they look nice, but so do other computers which don't sell as well. The market differs with your POV and recent sales success indicates that many people feel the price premium is worth it - otherwise they simply would not buy Audi's.
Like it or not, cars or not commodities.
It may be a dirty word on here but the brand counts for a lot.
Otherwise Nissan would be selling a lot more GTR's than Porsche 911's.
Objectively the GTR is a far more capable car for a lot less money. But people buy into the whole Porsche brand, the heritage, status (sad but true) and let's not forget the aesthetics.
The PH massive get very animated when they hear talk of 'brands'. The concensus being that it's all marketing bullsh!te.
Fair enough, but I bet if you were to walk around their houses (thru-the-keyhole style) you'd find them rammed with brand leaders: Dyson vacuums, Heinz Ketchup, Stella Artois, Toilet Duck, Fairy Liquid etc. etc.
Brand is also why you don't like Audi's. You don't like the Audi styling, you don't place much value on a quality interior and you're not concerned with status. Audi will never be the brand for you.
Nothing wrong with that but it is a personal choice not a definitive statement of fact that their cars or overpriced or not worth it.
After all, that would be a hugely arrogant assertion
The issue I have with this particular Audi is that it is neither the best looking (I know looks are subjective but good grief this is dull) or the best to drive (how many of us would bet their house that this is going to get rave reviews?). The objective of this car is to hide its price behind a nice interior and a fancy badge. It's something VW are really good at and people keep falling for it.
Most techies agree that Apple are definitely NOT the best products.
Seriously, ask the IT guys at your work (if you have an IT dept) how they feel about the iphone.
You get far more features on a Samsung - but who wants a Samsung?
Face it,we're all brand obesessed drones....
DoubleSix said:
Well sorry mate but you dont really understand (basic!) economics then.
If i do a turd, roll it in glitter, and sell it for a tenner then that is what its worth! The fact that i can produce them for little or no cost is not really relevant.
I've never said that Audi won't sell lots of these cars. They will because their brand is so strong. However, just because you've covered your poo in glitter and sold it to someone for £10 it does not automatically follow that that person got good value for money. It just means you're a good salesman. If i do a turd, roll it in glitter, and sell it for a tenner then that is what its worth! The fact that i can produce them for little or no cost is not really relevant.
The same applies to this Audi. There is no way that this car is designed and built so much better than an STI that it warrants that kind of price premium. Yes, people will pay that premium and many will be happy. However, if you put both cars side by side in a showroom and you filled the boot of the STI with £10k in five Pound notes and then priced them the same I bet a lot of people would change their mind and go off the Subaru.
But that will never happen and so the gold-plated Audi brand is safe. People will continue to be seduced by a nice interior and a trendy badge and next year VW will probably make even more profit than the $21.2bn they made this year.
SonicHedgeHog said:
I've never said that Audi won't sell lots of these cars. They will because their brand is so strong. However, just because you've covered your poo in glitter and sold it to someone for £10 it does not automatically follow that that person got good value for money. It just means you're a good salesman.
The same applies to this Audi. There is no way that this car is designed and built so much better than an STI that it warrants that kind of price premium. Yes, people will pay that premium and many will be happy. However, if you put both cars side by side in a showroom and you filled the boot of the STI with £10k in five Pound notes and then priced them the same I bet a lot of people would change their mind and go off the Subaru.
But that will never happen and so the gold-plated Audi brand is safe. People will continue to be seduced by a nice interior and a trendy badge and next year VW will probably make even more profit than the $21.2bn they made this year.
Your argument is based on a subjective opinion of 'value for money'.The same applies to this Audi. There is no way that this car is designed and built so much better than an STI that it warrants that kind of price premium. Yes, people will pay that premium and many will be happy. However, if you put both cars side by side in a showroom and you filled the boot of the STI with £10k in five Pound notes and then priced them the same I bet a lot of people would change their mind and go off the Subaru.
But that will never happen and so the gold-plated Audi brand is safe. People will continue to be seduced by a nice interior and a trendy badge and next year VW will probably make even more profit than the $21.2bn they made this year.
People pay more for brands they like. But not all brands give you anything tangible for that premium (think ludicrous celebrity perfumes etc.)
However, the fact remains that you don get something more when you choose and Audi over a Subaru. The interior is a lot, lot better. The exterior design for many people is a lot better. Whether you think it's worth it is neither here nor there. The market wil decide.
If life was all about side by side product comparisons and rational value for money statistical analysis, we'd all be driving Kias and eating Tesco value brand products.
Thank god it's not.
DoubleSix said:
SonicHedgeHog said:
I disagree with that. Just because people are prepared to buy them does not make them fairly priced. Many car buyers are clueless or have no choice (company cars). Everyone on this website knows there is not £40k+ worth of design and engineering in this car. If Subaru can do it for under £30k that is blindingly obvious. What this car is is a £30k car with a £10k badge on the front. That makes it overpriced.
Well sorry mate but you dont really understand (basic!) economics then.If i do a turd, roll it in glitter, and sell it for a tenner then that is what its worth! The fact that i can produce them for little or no cost is not really relevant.
... Of course, I jestSonicHedgeHog said:
nonuts said:
Please do share with us what car you have spent your own money on?
Well having sold my Griffith last year I now find myself in the fortunate position of trundling around in an M3CSL. So I'm afraid you won't be able to use my car as a way of belittling my opinion. You'll have to think of something else.You got me interested enough to actually take a look: WRX STI from Subaru's website a few seconds ago: £32,995.00 for the cheapest on the road price. Current S3 cheapest on the road price is £31,840. Doesn't seem to be any real difference in price, however it could be very interesting to see which will be worth more in 3 years (I'm not saying I know one way or another).
HighwayStar said:
Ah but... There is a cost. The quality of components used to 'manufacture/produce' the turd. Expensive high living, fine foods, wine or burger n chips, ready meals etc ... Of course, I jest
I can cater for either end of the market, just give me a day or two to 'adjust' the product line... ... Of course, I jestEdited by DoubleSix on Tuesday 25th September 13:42
nonuts said:
SonicHedgeHog said:
nonuts said:
Please do share with us what car you have spent your own money on?
Well having sold my Griffith last year I now find myself in the fortunate position of trundling around in an M3CSL. So I'm afraid you won't be able to use my car as a way of belittling my opinion. You'll have to think of something else.You got me interested enough to actually take a look: WRX STI from Subaru's website a few seconds ago: £32,995.00 for the cheapest on the road price. Current S3 cheapest on the road price is £31,840. Doesn't seem to be any real difference in price, however it could be very interesting to see which will be worth more in 3 years (I'm not saying I know one way or another).
Perhaps the Mazda3 MPS might make a better comparison despite its choice of driven wheels.
With a bit of luck, I'll be in the market for a hot hatch next summer, I want an S3 Sportback S-Tronic. I don't want to go older than 3yrs, but I can't afford £20k so the next on my list is an 09/10 3 MPS. Now they start and finish at just under £22k brand new, fully loaded, there are no options bar colour. Bi-Xenons, Auto-Fold Mirrors, Blind Spot Monitor, Navigation, Cruise, Dual-Zone Climate, Heated Seats, Bluetooth etc and a 256bhp Turbocharged 4-pot. I can pick up an 59-plater with 14k on the clock from a main dealer approved used for £12k easily. Generally an equivalently specced S3 is roughly £11k more than the Mazda.
Audi can charge that much more because they have the demand, and people are willing to pay that price because they know they can recoup a decent return 3 years down the line. The Mazda has a good interior, but its not as solid as the Audi, and the ergonomics are a bit higgledypiggledy, the Audis are not. The Audi will do 20k between servicing, the Mazda will only do 9. The 3 is a bit shouty, big wing, fat arches, bonnet scoop, the Audi makes do with a far subtler style. They're a premium brand, Subaru, Mazda are not. If i had the money, if be more than happy to oart with it. I digress.
DoubleSix said:
HighwayStar said:
Ah but... There is a cost. The quality of components used to 'manufacture/produce' the turd. Expensive high living, fine foods, wine or burger n chips, ready meals etc ... Of course, I jest
I can cater for either end of the market, just give me a day or two to 'adjust' the product line... ... Of course, I jestEdited by DoubleSix on Tuesday 25th September 13:42
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